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What is healthy counterplay?

BluePolarizer··2 votes·712 views

Let's say you had a skillshot that was half the speed of Anivia's Q. That is extremely slow. It also has a 20 second long CD. However on impact it deals 500/600/700/800/900 base damage + 150% AP scaling + 1/2/3/4/5 second stun. The rest of the champ would be useless to compensate for this powerful spell.

Is this spell balanced?

It has clear counterplay: dodge the spell. It does absolutely nothing if it doesn't hit you. You can splitpush to make this spell useless, since you're all spread apart.

But if it does hit in a 5v5, your team loses the game.

Fair?

This is what playing against prenerf Fiora, GP or current Illaoi feel like. I am not talking about any specific champion here. I'm talking about the whole notion of counterplay and the direction the game is moving in.

Sure there's "counterplay". But if you fail, the consequences are absolutely devastating.

Meanwhile, look at an old-school matchup of Zed vs. Annie, Pantheon vs. Jax, etc. Alot more thought goes into the lane rather than "dodge this or die". There's alot of timing, positioning, noticing power spikes, etc.

12 Comments

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Illaoi and fiora are weak though

And GP I have to actually revisit cause most of the changes really changed hos GP should be played but he's no problem at all if I do have the pleasure of facing him

Illaoi is easily countered by moving as her whole kit implies which is reasonable given how useless she is outside of a clusterf- teamfight or siege comp where she just becomes a weak ver. of blitz

Fiora Suffers mostly because she synergized too well with the old masteries and the tiamat nerf(Which I love) nerfed her quite a bit making her easier to shutdown and prevent power spikes and she's overly squishier than before since she doesn't have the pleasure of old masteries' 17 in offense, 13 in defense(I think) for tankiness. So she's easy to deal with.

As for GP again I haven't really touched him a 3rd time since the mastery changes so as a player he felt gimped to me and fighting the rare times I do if I lane vs him he's just easy pickings while if an ally feeds he can somewhat be relevant.

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

Illaoi and fiora are weak though

And GP I have to actually revisit cause most of the changes really changed hos GP should be played but he's no problem at all if I do have the pleasure of facing him

Illaoi is easily countered by moving as her whole kit implies which is reasonable given how useless she is outside of a clusterf- teamfight or siege comp where she just becomes a weak ver. of blitz

Fiora Suffers mostly because she synergized too well with the old masteries and the tiamat nerf(Which I love) nerfed her quite a bit making her easier to shutdown and prevent power spikes and she's overly squishier than before since she doesn't have the pleasure of old masteries' 17 in offense, 13 in defense(I think) for tankiness. So she's easy to deal with.

As for GP again I haven't really touched him a 3rd time since the mastery changes so as a player he felt gimped to me and fighting the rare times I do if I lane vs him he's just easy pickings while if an ally feeds he can somewhat be relevant.

Illaoi is not weak. I don't know who you're playing against, but the Illaoi players I'm up against build tanky, never die cause she has too much sustain, and do way too much damage for how resilient she is. She can also zone out a lot of the roster.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Well they aren't so much "weak" but they have too many "flaws", all you have to do is run away or heavy cc her when she ultis, her e is basically a blitz hook so dodge but if you do get grabbed kill 3 tentacles, as for her w once you get hit by it just look at the tentacles instead of her and reposition while you fight, as for her q dodge it.

Her entire kit is too easy, just make sure your adc gets executioner blade, people think it's a bad item then wonder why they lose......

In addition to illaoi having no CC, gap closer, speed boost, or mobility

She's at a 43% win rate because of it, I hope riot doesn't buff her she just needs a rework and I would suggest

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/16saqRzt-riot-illaoi

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

Well they aren't so much "weak" but they have too many "flaws", all you have to do is run away or heavy cc her when she ultis, her e is basically a blitz hook so dodge but if you do get grabbed kill 3 tentacles, as for her w once you get hit by it just look at the tentacles instead of her and reposition while you fight, as for her q dodge it.

Her entire kit is too easy, just make sure your adc gets executioner blade, people think it's a bad item then wonder why they lose......

In addition to illaoi having no CC, gap closer, speed boost, or mobility

She's at a 43% win rate because of it, I hope riot doesn't buff her she just needs a rework and I would suggest

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/16saqRzt-riot-illaoi

I honestly see her being nerfed in the future. She's a drain tank similar to Trundle and Swain, but she brings a lot more damage than they do.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

She's too easy to beat though once you practice vs her and start seeing her fatal weaknesses (move to dodge all her damage and if she ultis just run until it's done) she's too easy which a lot of plat+ already noticed putting her at her low win rate.

So nerfing her while these flaws are still there would be unreasonable even if she has a lot of damage

proposing to rework her would be easier.

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

She's too easy to beat though once you practice vs her and start seeing her fatal weaknesses (move to dodge all her damage and if she ultis just run until it's done) she's too easy which a lot of plat+ already noticed putting her at her low win rate.

So nerfing her while these flaws are still there would be unreasonable even if she has a lot of damage

proposing to rework her would be easier.

The thing is that you HAVE to run when she ults. That alone gives her a lot of power when it comes to controlling objectives. I still think it's too early to say she needs a buff or a rework. I personally feel she's strong, but takes skill to be strong.

Also, Fiora is not weak by a longshot. Few can really duel her, and she's still a decent teamfighter for how good her dueling is.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Tbh lately people are adjusting to illaoi TOO well and i'm starting to see people just outright ask the adc to buy executioner's calling cc her once and blow her up if she isn't tank, and if she is the grievous wound will still help take her out.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

Sure there's "counterplay". But if you fail, the consequences are absolutely devastating.

That's the point. Making a straw man argument out of it doesn't really help you there.

Counter-play is a window of opportunity to react properly to something, rather than a permanent "win if X, lose if Y" condition.

BluePolarizer1 votes

For example, back when Ekko was released, alot of people said he was OP. They pointed to his safety - well, Tryndamere has equal safety, is Trynd OP? They pointed to his damage, mobility and being AP - well, Akali and Fizz have the same type of bursty mobiliy, are they OP? They pointed to him being able to build full tank and still be strong - well, how is that different than AD tank Fizz?

The real reason why Ekko was OP is his W. It is extremely unreliable, but if it hits, it literally wins games.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Actually, the real reason Ekko was OP was because he didn't need to invest heavily in offensive stats. He could go almost pure tank and still succeed because of the raw, base values in his kit.

His W is not quite hit-or-miss binary, either. The very threat of that ability is just one reason why it's capable of making a lot of interesting plays. It can save a player or win a fight, just because of the area control it commands, without actually landing the stun.

It also fits into the normal paradigm of unreliable abilities. If it's less reliable, then it should have a higher level of potential power to balance out that difference. Sure, there's a line where it has gone too far, but Ekko's W is acceptable when abilities like Fiddlesticks' Crowstorm, Mordekaiser's Mace of Spades and every single grab skill shot exist. They're less reliable than other, comparable abilities, but they have so much potential because of that unreliability.

goodblue1 votes

they do not mention countering to tank and cc. when they said counterplay, the target was always assassin. but we can kill assassin with one shot. and we can not kill mundo, sion, tahm, nasus shen, malphite, rammus, amumu, volibear. where counterplay is. they only stand, and make win. if you say heathy, nerf tank and cc.

BluePolarizer1 votes

I cannot understand you. Yes you can counter Mundo, Nasus, Shen, etc. You are simply not good enough.

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