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So can we bring back innervating locket now?

ModCaptainMårvelous··25 votes·3,996 views

If you all recall, there was once an item called Innervating Locket. A staple on several champions, this item was what happened when you combined a catalyst plus a mana manipulator (Our modern equivilant being forbidden idol). This item was removed because certain champions could abuse this item, mainly Gragas and Udyr thanks to their mana-restoring skills. Udyr's turtle stance had mana attached to it, Gragas had his original W which restored mana and gave a damage resistance buff, which meant neither of these champions would reach a point where they're spending more than they're earning.

What's happened since then?

These two problem cases lost their built-in mana restoring and we've since moved onto adding new items for champions who want mana but can't benefit from something like tear of the goddess (Due to cost) or chalice (Due to build paths). So why don't we bring this item back? A rough estimate would be something like this:

#Innervating Locket item 3114 (600g) + item 3801 (600g) + 500g +100 Base mana regen +100 Base health regen +250 Health +10% CDR UNIQUE Passive: Restores 1% of your total mana/health after casting a spell. This is based on which resource is lower (Mana < HP= 1% Mana restore) UNIQUE Active: Heartbeat: Restores 3% of your total mana/health to yourself and all surrounding allies. Doing this will disable the passive until the active is back.

#Things I attempted to accomplish

  • Offer an item for champions who struggle with mana while avoiding the use of chalice/tear.
  • Propose a strategic choice between bad stats and a powerful passive/active.
  • Tie back to Locket's original build path (Catalyst and Manipulator) while still creating a new, unique build path (Idol + Bracer)
  • Provide an item that is more difficult to abuse but also a passive that is still strong.
  • Give an active so that Locket references it's old aura while also giving it less of a "selfish" persona.

It may not be perfect but I really think that we've made it to a point where the original concerns of Locket don't hold as much weight anymore, if at all. http://i.imgur.com/D1MmONP.png

39 Comments

NorthernDruid7 votes

Intersting, i'd love to see what something like this could do for Soraka

Electro5221 votes

I don't know. I feel it could be pretty OP on her unless it has a decent cooldown, maybe along the same lines as item 3222. This would make her niche of "prime healer" more pronounced, but still leave a decent amount of decision making.

NorthernDruid1 votes

I think that long a cooldown would not be very good on it, item 3222 will heal you for enough to spend 2 extra heals on and has a base CD of 3 minutes.

If would be restore 3% health and mana to yourself and disable the passive, it'd need to have an 18 sec cooldown to comete properly, but a 30 sec would also be passable.

I generally feel like Soraka is lacking slightly in itemization options, they killed a lot of options for her that relies on health regen, including item 3065. So she has the choice of build AP or build support items, but no longer has the choice to itemize into self-sustain. To keep yourself from having to go back to base when there's no enemy champions in your lane you either have to spec majorly into spellvamp and go hit jungle creeps or minions with it or get the Crucible and keep using it to heal yourself. Neither of these options are really all that viable as a full solution to the problem of, so now they're dead or retreated, my adc's on half health, but i'm even lower so it's just not sensible to heal... We'd better recall since I have no way of bringing any sustain to the situation unless jungle or mid decides this is a good time to gank.

I mean you can get warmog's and try that, but it doesn't really bring anything else than OOC health regen to you.

I feel like she needs a better passive which somehow makes you able to do something about your situation when you don't have any enemies to try and poke with Starcall. Or they need to change her health costs and/or regen values around so that she can try and build around her weakness (prolonged out of combat sustain weirdly enough). Or introduce items in the niche of this, and Warmog's and item 3028 that deal with prolonged sustain, and make it bring more than just that to her kit at a price you can afford on a support's budget.

An item with an activatable self-heal about as powerful as item 3222 is on Raka, but with a solely flat per level value rather than a percentage benefit, and with other stats that aren't really attractive on non-supports (I mean, imagine an item which gave 40-55 AP, Spirit Visage's passive at 15% instead of 20, a 3 min CD 30-40per level self heal active, 100%health regen and maybe 5-10 CDR, if you pick that outside support you're definatively giving something up, hell even as support you're giving up a slot you could've used on moar AP) Maybe make it a gold item upgrade's active.

But when they remove options which barely balance out by the end game and replace them with moar AP ratios they're just limiting her build options.

The5lacker4 votes

I don't see that being particularly relevant, in all honesty. Either it's going to be too strong, or there's going to be better options.

I'd much rather just see something that restores health based on the mana expended to use abilities. That would be a quirky thing to see.

Saianna1 votes

So what if there are better options? We need more items for the sake of diversity.

Sammystorm1 votes

For a champ like udyr that is 1700 gold you just spent on utility. To get its maximum effectiveness you have to rush as first or 2nd item because much later you aren't going to have the mana problems. However it doesn't give any good early game stats. Better health options item 3801 item 3725. Better health and mana choices item 3800. better damage choices. So why would someone pick this up and end up with a weak early game and potentially a weak mid game?

Saianna2 votes

You know there are 121 other champions than udyr? And that item used to be mostly for supports, until someone smart noticed how good it was with Udyr/Karthus?

Jamnon1 votes

This item seems to cater to supports, given its active. Udyr does have early mana issues, but I think getting blue or other solutions are better suited to this, such as runes.

The5lacker5 votes

No we really don't. Quality over quantity.

But, for the sake of argument, I'll indulge you. Innervating Locket

  • Forbidden Idol (600g) + Crystalline Bracer (600g) + 350g = 1550g
  • 200 Health
  • 100% base Health Regen
  • 100% base Health Regen
  • Unique Passive + 10% Cooldown Reduction
  • Unique Passive - Restoration - Casting an ability restores Health equal to 50% of the Mana cost of the ability.

And then some higher-tier item for it to build into, or a number of options, basically as a support sustain item. Ta dah.

Saianna1 votes

So all you did was changing his stats (hp) and passive? I don't see the point of it, really.

And yes we kinda do need diversity. And your quality argument is invalid.

I don't wanna play every melee with hydra, nor every adc with BT. I want diversification. Others want it too. Otherwise you wouldn't see Alistar with triforce, AP xin or AD sona.

The5lacker1 votes

You seem to have misinterpreted my "quality" statement as "OP Items." And you seem to mistake "Diversity" as "As many options as possible."

Tell me, would you consider 4 different BTs, each with more AD than the last, diversity? Even when there's one strictly better option? No. Of course you wouldn't. These would be low quality BT clones, and there wouldn't be even the illusion of choice. "Quality over Quantity" doesn't mean there should only be one set of items for every class, it means that thought should be put into items instead of just going "Hey, we need three copies of this stat combination so people think they have options!"

Which is one of the reasons Hydra really shouldn't have 75 AD. There's honestly no choice right there if you're melee.

Jamnon1 votes

He seems to argue that there is need for an item. Why do you contest this, I'm curious?

Is this a Raka problem/support problem or...? No problem at all?

The5lacker2 votes

His argument for there being a need was that there wasn't currently an item. That's not a need. "It isn't here currently" isn't a reason to put an item into the game. We don't currently have an item that grants large amounts of AP, Crit, and Mana Regen. Do we need such an item? Of course not.

Now, if he made an actual argument for bringing back Innervating Locket, I'd be curious as to the points he'd bring up. That's the big reason I posted my suggestion: I'm assuming the niche he wants Innervating Locket to fill is "Support Sustain," which we don't have many options for other than Regen items. Making a more active sustain option for supports is a smart idea, and that's an actual niche that should be filled: But his suggestion is needlessly complex and ineffective. 1% Health or Mana (whichever is lower) and then 3% for the active? It's basically a bad copy of Chalice stapled to a bad copy of Warmogs, both of which work far better for their own niches. If people want Innervating Locket, it needs to occupy a niche that isn't currently occupied. Ergo, Sustain based on mana spent.

Jamnon1 votes

It may be needlessly complex and inefficient.

But honestly I think this is a separate criticism from saying "supports don't need additional regen items."

I run item 3165 if I run a mage support against any kind of sustain/heal. But I would be curious what sort of "other item" could fulfill a supporting niche like this.

It'd what, have CD and mana regen at the very least. What else do support items typically have?

The5lacker1 votes

I don't recall ever saying "Supports don't need additional regen items." I recall saying "Don't say 'We need more items because we need more items.'" Because that's a stupid statement.

If someone can make an argument for a niche existing and currently not being filled, by all means, make a suggestion. But don't make a suggestion and then hide behind the concept of "Item Diversity." Diversity doesn't mean a million items, ten of which are viable. Diversity means niches are filled. And given support items currently are very sustain-focused, then yes, I'm gonna be skeptical when someone says we need more sustain items for support.

If Morellonomicon fills a niche, then the niche is filled. Why do we need to fill the niche again? Answer: You don't. The niche is already filled. Making another item that fills the same niche doesn't increase "Diversity," it increases "Redundancy." Which isn't something League needs. At all.

Jamnon1 votes

{quoted} I don't recall ever saying "Supports don't need additional regen items."

Oh ok.

If someone can make an argument for a niche existing and currently not being filled, by all means, make a suggestion.

... Why do we need to fill the niche again? ...

So the argument that should be made by the OP is that "a niche is not being filled." No I get what you are saying "diversity for its own sake is bad."

Kingsgrave2 votes

Udyr Sona Gragas Maokai Yorick

shudders

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

It may need tuning but I don't think it could be as bad as OG Locket was with these champs.

Jamnon1 votes

OUCH yeaaaaa......

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted} It may need tuning but I don't think it could be as bad as OG Locket was with these champs.

Maokai and Yorick would by far be the biggest abusers of this item. I don't even see the Active as useful when you can gain that 3% by just spamming abilities. Maokai and Yorick scare me with this due to how much health they would have constantly.

CommandShockwave2 votes

That first passive would be ridiculous on anyone with spammable skills.

Saianna1 votes

Then how about 5s CD on passive? That way super-spammable skills like Karthus Q won't trigger that often :)

Jamnon1 votes

IDK man I see what you are trying to do, like the thinking outside the box, but got to say I agree with this.

Evil Jester2 votes

That Item is too OP.

Yoella1 votes

If mana restoring skills were the issue, Karthus still replenishes mana on kill with his E toggled off.

Saianna1 votes

Really nice!

@CaptainMårvelous Maybe think of how to rework items once lost like malady and others? I'd like to read it ^^

Lajinn51 votes

I want this so badly Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr Udyr

ZenithEevee1 votes

Kalista Rend

#Mana4Days

But in all seriousness, i think the addition of 250 mana (make it item 3801 + item 3114 + item 1027 + 400 gold?) and make it from a 1700 item to a flat 200 item would make an reasonable item. dont you?

Sammystorm1 votes

that hardly costs anything and does a shit load of utility. Where does cheap but lots of utility end up? Bot lane on a support. It would be bought by most supports and almost no junglers. So it wouldn't really solve the problem you correctly bring up.

Champs like udyr wouldn't really want to get it because they are wasting a slot on no damage and crappy tank stats and getting good utility. It is kind of how essence reaver was suppose to solve problems but didn't. To be fair your idea is better then essence reaver and would be occasionally picked up on supports for the active but even then their are better more slot efficient items.

It Is I Emoto1 votes

I'd prefer to turn this item purley for support. Though it's active is really strong, I think it's more worth on supports who have their spells on low cooldown, like Sona or Nami. Though the recipe could be.. item 3114 + item 3010 + 200 gold = 2000 gold It would give stats many supports need, mana, health, regen on leveling up and it's passive/active. It would be still cheap and it would also hard to be abused by other champions, I think.

Jamnon1 votes

What would this look like on a Kassadin or Kog I wonder?

/Shiver

It Is I Emoto1 votes

sadly, the stats won't generate enough mana for kassadin to do more than 4/5 rift walks :0 A tear and a roa would be still more cost efficent

for kog though, well it makes him quite spamable, but he would then lacks of damage, whatts bad as adc/mage

I still can't imagine how the locket was abused by champs like udyr :0

DSRM Mobius1 votes

that item is OP! its passive is too good

Illâoi Evê Siôn1 votes

I liked the build path and stats, but the passive and active seem so ... random? Still good though, if you were willing to let Riot change it around a bit :)

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Udyr ow

ImHerVoice1 votes

sure if we bring back force of nature first :D stupid assassin mages and no real item to deal with them as a tank FTW

4nth0l0gy1 votes

I'm always suspicious of an item that gives both health and mana.

FantasySniper1 votes

I think it would be better to incorporate its supportive effects as a passive rather than an active.

I can think of a few potential abuse cases for an item like this: Soraka Nidalee Jayce Hecarim TwistedFate Udyr Ryze

They all have small to small-ish CDs (or in the cases of Nidalee and Jayce, have separate CDs between forms) that will certainly make their costs inconsequential. Twisted Fate even has an already profiting mana restore on an ability.

BTW, at base, every champion has less mana than health at every point in the game. You'd need to build a item 3070 to even benefit from the health regen.

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