Can we buff Cinderhulk back to 25 percent bonus health?

Hexs Fortune·May 13, 2017·110 votes·3,466 views

What do you guys think? I feel the item could use some love considering the game wide health reductions and the immolate damage nerf. Every part of this item took a hit..

65 Comments

Meep ManMay 13, 201724 votes

20%. It needs a buff as an item after the damage nerf to it, but at the same time people should realize that overall effective health has not changed too much since Armor and MR were also increased in the patch AND Penetration was overall nerfed.

RocketRelmMay 13, 20171 votes

They made Warmogs Heart easier to obtain, because less HP value in the system. I could totally see a % increase to this item.

The Yetii RiderMay 13, 20177 votes

{quoted}

20%. It needs a buff as an item after the damage nerf to it, but at the same time people should realize that overall effective health has not changed too much since Armor and MR were also increased in the patch AND Penetration was overall nerfed.

Armor penetration was nerfed. MR pen was not touched.

doiminat0r3600May 13, 20172 votes

Thank god it wasnt touched. Mages have so few pen items compared to AD champs.

"Seperate but equal" should also apply to League. AD champs don't need 6 penetration (3 of which are % pen) items while mages have 4 (only one is % pen).

The Yetii RiderMay 13, 20174 votes

Mages get MR pen on boots. That's an extremely efficient purchase and it amazes me that it has gone largely unnerfed for so many years. Because it's available on boots, every champion can basically just lose 15 MR where it really counts (against AP DPS) automatically, every game. That's insane. Mage players take it for granted how good they've got it.

doiminat0r3600May 13, 20172 votes

ADs get item 3006 . Less ADs get item 3009

Mages get item 3020 . Less mages get item 3158 .

Tanks get item 3111 . Less tanks get item 3047 .

All champions have something to boost their core stat. ADs get Attack speed bonuses. Mages get some penetration/cooldowns. Tanks get resistances.

Not that big of an issue IMO. What I think the issue with mages is that cooldowns are what makes mages DPS so low (up to 45% reduction) but AD champs have AS to limit them on the amount of damage they do. 2.5 AS dealing ~ 400 damage each, 2000 damage per 2 seconds (not counting resistances). They can also heal and have more % pen than mages do. Mages have significantly less DPS because they can't do 2+ abilities per second consistantly. Not to mention that mana is another mage/AP limiter and the over abundance of AD + MR items.

undesirable teamMay 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

ADs get . Less ADs get

Mages get . Less mages get .

Tanks get . Less tanks get .

All champions have something to boost their core stat. ADs get Attack speed bonuses. Mages get some penetration/cooldowns. Tanks get resistances.

Not that big of an issue IMO. What I think the issue with mages is that cooldowns are what makes mages DPS so low (up to 45% reduction) but AD champs have AS to limit them on the amount of damage they do. 2.5 AS dealing ~ 400 damage each, 2000 damage per 2 seconds (not counting resistances). They can also heal and have more % pen than mages do. Mages have significantly less DPS because they can't do 2+ abilities per second consistantly. Not to mention that mana is another mage/AP limiter and the over abundance of AD + MR items.

you mean every champion that does not need magic pen goes item 3047

doiminat0r3600May 13, 20171 votes

No???? Where did that come from?

Tabi doesn't even have the same stat usefulness as a item 3006 for ADC

Votable JesterMay 14, 20171 votes

Actually many adcs get tabi so they can beat the other adc.

Many mages get defensive boots so they can survive as well. Sorc boots are oftentimes a luxury buy now.

MrHaZeYoMay 14, 20171 votes

Did you watch any of MSI? Even Kog and Ashe were buying Tabis lol.

doiminat0r3600May 14, 20171 votes

I could care less about the pro scene. They don't effect low elos anyway to a large degree.

MrHaZeYoMay 14, 20171 votes

It very much effects low elo. Champions that people consider strong are the ones they play. Granted Bronze is its own living hell it still holds true.

Shit I've been building Tabis/Mercs on ADs for awhile now since Swifties got nerfed because I get more out of them that I would Zerkers.

The Yetii RiderMay 14, 20171 votes

Mages get burst, not DPS. Most ADCs can't deal 500 damage in 0.25 seconds, and if they can they can't do it nearly as early as a mage can. Burst and DPS both are required for a team to do well, DPS alone doesn't help anything. That's where ADC in 2017 meme comes from.

Assassins are supposed to kill mages, so the AD MR items are working as intended.

Mana doesn't limit burst. A normal mage has enough base mana to go through two whole rotations without even building any additional, and their core item gives them 400 extra. Mana does limit DPS, but DPS is not a mage's job so it's a good limiter.

doiminat0r3600May 14, 20172 votes

You tell me that Cassiopeia is a burst mage. Not all mages are bursty.

ADCs can do upwards of 500 damage every auto with crit (nobody said anything about .25 seconds) I agree they can't do it nearly as early as a mage, but atleast with a mage, you have to wait a few seconds before another comes. With most AD champs, you generally have multiple hitting you per second. Especially late game.

Assassins are supposed to kill carries (generally squishies). This doesn't exclude them from killing ADC from the backline.

Mana does limit burst. If a normal burst mage has 300 mana, but each ability costs 100+ mana average but you don't anticipate, then you can go in, not do enough damage and die.

If you think DPS isn't a mage's gob, then there is something wrong here. Azir Amumu Anivia AurelionSol Cassiopeia Evelynn Heimerdinger Fiddlesticks Karthus Kennen Morgana Rumble Zyra Vladimir Taliyah Swain are all DPS mages. If you don't think so, ill argue my point with any I listed. All of these have mana limits and are negatively effected by AD + MR items.

The Yetii RiderMay 14, 20172 votes

...Evelynn and Amumu aren't even mages! One is a diver/assassin and the other is a vanguard.

Your argument about burst limitation is also idiotic. At no point does a mage have only 300 mana while their costs are that high. Most mages will have 500 mana by level 6 or so when their full rotation becomes available. In theory, yes, mana could limit burst but not in practice. There is no mage whose rotation is limited by mana except maybe Cassieopeia or Ryze and that is because both of their rotations are far longer than any other champions' by design.

The point of Anivia isn't DPS, Anivia's R is designed to create a large zoning tool that is more for the slow and the instant burst provided by her E than for continuous damage from her R. If she was intended to get a large amount of DPS with her R it would Ground enemies or something to prevent them from simply flashing out of it.

Morgana's Q has 300 base damage and a 90% AP ratio. That is burst. The champion deals large amounts of burst damage from a distance. Any DPS she deals with her W or her R is secondary to her role as a poke/pick mage.

Rumble is indeed DPS based, that's why he's never played mid. Same with Ryze. Those champions do not replace the burst role in your team that is provided by your mid laner, they go top and replace a sustained DPS champ.

Kennen was absolutely a burst-centric champion until his ultimate was intentionally nerfed to be spread out over a longer period of time. Now he's more of a control mage/diver, I would agree. Still not DPS, his AOE stun is more important than any damage.

Brand is not DPS, that's just dumb. His passive is the only DoT in his kit, every other ability is designed to combo together to blow your opponent to smithereens. E to get the mark, Q to stun, W to burst and then let the passive do the rest, and it comes out in about 1 second, if that.

Zyra isn't a mage, she's a support. Her damage has been nerfed repeatedly, she's a disruptor now who focuses on zone control. Her DPS is decent if she's going against two champions who have intentionally low base stats like an ADC and support early game, but she's trash against anyone who is intended to solo lane.

Fiddlesticks' goal isn't DPS, he's another zoner like Anivia.

I will concede that Azir, Swain, Casseiopeia, Vladimir, Taliyah, and Heimerdinger are DPS mages. That's not enough of the population to disregard my point about MR pen, the mage role as burst, and the differences between carries and mages. These champions are exceptions that do not conform to the normal role, but they are a tiny fraction of the mage class, nothing more.

Not even considering all the champions you didn't list who ARE clearly burst mages: Veigar Annie TwistedFate Viktor Xerath Ziggs Velkoz Syndra

doiminat0r3600May 14, 20171 votes

I didn't know people considered "Vanguard" to be a class. I would also consider evelynn to be a mage because she primarliy does magic damage. As well as Amumu, who, when given time, can do a lot of damage.
Anivia is DPS. She has some burst in her kit but her whole kit is based around her Ultimate. If she traps someone inside it (with her wall or her stun), she can deal a lot more damage.
One ability isn't burst. If one ability is burst, then every champion has burst. Morgana is mainly for the DoT of her Q + W combo.
Glad you agree that some mages can be DPS (contradictory to your previous statement). Not every mage has to be played in the mid lane BTW. There are many that go top lane. Yes, that means Ryze and Rumble.
Kennen is DPS, simply because his ult does DoT and he pokes down his opponents.
Brand is the epitimy of DPS. Are you dumb? His passive is what makes his kit viable. The burn damage + the delay is exactly what damage over time is.
Lol. Using the "not a mage but a support" argument is stupid and doesn't disprove anything. She is still played in the mid lane quite often. Just because someone isn't played as a damage mage doesn't mean they aren't doing minion damage. Zyra can still do hundreds of points every few seconds with no damage items.
Fiddlesticks has 2 DPS abilities. His W and Ultimate both deal damage over time to one or more targets, increasing his DPS.
I wasn't going to mention champions that are actually burst mages, because you were insisting that no mage was DPS focused. So I mentioned those.

Your list of actual burst mages are missing a few. Here is my list of burst mages: Ahri Akali Annie Ekko Fizz Katarina Kassadin Karma Leblanc Lux Malzahar Syndra Orianna Xerath Veigar Ziggs Zilean

Also, I just realized that Singed Teemo are also DPS mages. They are probably the biggest DPS mages out there with their DoT abilities.

The Yetii RiderMay 14, 20171 votes

That's ridiculous, every tank in the game would be a mage if the word mage applies to someone who "primarily does magic damage".

Here is a list of mages by that definition: Ahri Akali Alistar Amumu Anivia Annie AurelionSol Azir Bard Blitzcrank Braum Cassiopeia Chogath Diana DrMundo Ekko Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks Fizz Galio Gragas Heimerdinger Ivern Janna Karma Karthus Kassadin Katarina Kayle Kennen KogMaw Leblanc Leona Lissandra Lulu Lux Malphite Malzahar Maokai Mordekaiser Morgana Nami Nautilus Nidalee Nunu Orianna Rakan Rammus Rumble Ryze Sejuani Shaco Shen Singed Sona Soraka Swain Syndra TahmKench Taliyah Taric Teemo Thresh TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Warwick Xerath Zac Ziggs Zilean Zyra

That is 76 champions, over half of the champions in the entire league. At that point the term "mage" loses all meaning because it can't reasonably distinguish most champions from one another. That definition is just useless.

doiminat0r3600May 14, 20171 votes

You can build most of those champions full AP. A lot of those champions you mentioned ( Shen Thresh Taric Warwick KogMaw Braum ) do less magic damage when built AP than everyone else. Taric scales more and better off Armor. Braum can't do magic damage except every 4 seconds for his Q, and even that scales off HP.

My point was that Amumu can be built full AP and still do well. The champions I mentioned can build full ap and still be viable.

MrHaZeYoMay 14, 20171 votes

Have you ever tried AP Kog? He's a animal wit the Burst to KO you from a mile away.

The point other dude was trying to make is they do more magical damage than they do physical damage so in that logic you had made earlier they must be mages.

Excluding Kog from you're list though.

MrHaZeYoMay 14, 20171 votes

Outside or Ali, Bruam, Mundo, Kat, Leo, Malph, Naut, Rakan, Rummas, Sej, Shaco, Shen, TK, Taric, Thresh, WW, and Zac those are all mages lol.

MrHaZeYoMay 14, 20171 votes

I didn't know people considered "Vanguard" to be a class. I would also consider evelynn to be a mage because she primarliy does magic damage. As well as Amumu, who, when given time, can do a lot of damage.

Vanguard is a subclass of tanks. If they engage they're Vanguards, if they peel they're Wardens.

Anivia is DPS. She has some burst in her kit but her whole kit is based around her Ultimate. If she traps someone inside it (with her wall or her stun), she can deal a lot more damage.

While this is correct, she is still considered a Burst Mage, or more so a Zone Mage.

One ability isn't burst. If one ability is burst, then every champion has burst. Morgana is mainly for the DoT of her Q + W combo.

Morg is also more burst than DoT. Her R>Q>R is about 75% of squishys HP, but yes she does have some DoT.

Glad you agree that some mages can be DPS (contradictory to your previous statement). Not every mage has to be played in the mid lane BTW. There are many that go top lane. Yes, that means Ryze and Rumble.

Of course some mages are DPS oriented, Cass and Azir are examples. Ryze is also more so a Mid laner anymore. Rumble is more the exception than the rule.

Kennen is DPS, simply because his ult does DoT and he pokes down his opponents.

No AP Kennen is a AoE burst mage/assassin. Poke doesn't equate to DPS because poke doesn't happen every second.

Brand is the epitimy of DPS. Are you dumb? His passive is what makes his kit viable. The burn damage + the delay is exactly what damage over time is.

Brand is not DPS, Brand is a DoT Burst Mage. He has moments of fights where he can't do any damage as he's gated by CDs. Where as Malz, Rumble, Cassio, and Azir are always doing damage.

Lol. Using the "not a mage but a support" argument is stupid and doesn't disprove anything. She is still played in the mid lane quite often. Just because someone isn't played as a damage mage doesn't mean they aren't doing minion damage. Zyra can still do hundreds of points every few seconds with no damage items.

Mages are indeed supports. Raka, Karma, Lulu, Nami, Janna, Zyra are all mages but they are white mages (Well Zyra is actually more so a black mage). The others are Enchatresses and they specialize more on augmenting their Carries where as Black Mages fall under the catagories of Burst Mage, Battle Mage, and Artillery Mage.'

If Zyra isn't built as a secondary Mid Laner from the support role, she will do very minimal damage the later the game goes on, that's not to say she won't do more than a Janna or Nami, but it won't be by much.

Fiddlesticks has 2 DPS abilities. His W and Ultimate both deal damage over time to one or more targets, increasing his DPS.

At this point I'm starting the think you don't understand the difference between DPS and DoT. DPS is more so done by the likes of Marksman who litterally are dealing good amounts of damage every second while DoT does its damage over time. Malz for instance (His E) Does a amount over 4 seconds but that shouldn't be confused as what a ADC can do over that same 4 seconds. Although yes I did classify Malz as a DPS style mage so maybe that was a bad example. Brand though isn't a DPS mage, he is a DoT Burst Mage. Fiddle has some DPS but again it isn't the same as Cait, as it turns off after however long his Ult lasts or his Drain lasts where as Cait will fire DPS out until she dies or the fight ends.

I wasn't going to mention champions that are actually burst mages, because you were insisting that no mage was DPS focused. So I mentioned those.

Of the champions you list, these are the other Champs that can be considered DPS style Mages.

Anivia (As you pointed out her Ult, but teams will try to not fight on it so its conditional AurelionSol Azir Cassiopeia Chogath (Technically could be considered a DPS Mage, but he is more similar to a Magical Damage Juggernaut. Elise Evelynn While they are both more so classified as Burst style Assassin/Divers with some DPS to finish the damage off. Heimerdinger Karthus Kayle (Although she's more a long the line of a AoE Magical Marksman (Same with Azir I guess) Malzahar Rumble Singed (Although like Cho seems more like a weird AP Juggernaut. Swain Teemo (See Kayle) Zyra .

There are other champions with DPS properities but I wouldn't classify them as a DPS Mage, shit half the champs I just put I wouldn't consider a DPS Mage.

doiminat0r3600May 14, 20171 votes

Subclasses aside, you still admit that eve has DPS. You also keep saying that a lot of mage champions have DPS. Your previous point of "no mage has DPS" is disproven.

If Amumu and evelynn aren't mages, explain this: http://imgur.com/a/Ax1Tg and this: http://imgur.com/a/CDsE4

Secondary roles aren't just there. They mean something. Probably because they scale incredibly well off magic damage?

MrHaZeYoMay 14, 20171 votes

As far as Eve I did say she was a mage, just more so a Burst Assassin. Most of her damage comes in one giant burst, while she does have the damage to keep going due to her low CD on her Q. But uh I did agree with you on this already

While they are both more so classified as Burst style Assassin/Divers with some DPS to finish the damage off.

^When I was talking about Eve and Elise.

What other classification could you really give Amumu though? Ya he does some magic damage and he does scale on ability power but he's not really a mage and most (smart) people don't build him full AP. I'll give it to you cause you are correct but Amumu is more a tank than anything.

Where did I say no Mage has DPS??????????????????????????

Of course some mages are DPS oriented, Cass and Azir are examples. Ryze is also more so a Mid laner anymore. Rumble is more the exception than the rule.

I said that to you, did you even read?

Assuming you didn't argue any other point of my post, I can only assume I am correct on the rest of it. Thanks.

MrHaZeYoMay 14, 20171 votes

Zyra isn't a mage, she's a support.

Uh what? Being a Support doesn't mean you are not a Mage or Tank. Enchantresses like Sona, Nami, Lulu, Janna, and Karma are all mages (White Mages) where as Zyra is a black mage. Just because she goes support doesn't mean she's not a Mage.

I will concede that Azir, Swain, Casseiopeia, Vladimir, Taliyah, and Heimerdinger are DPS mages

Tali and Vlad aren't DPS mages, Tali is a burst/zone mage and Vlad (and Swain) is a Burst Mage Tank. Whereas Swain is a DPS Mage Tank.

OyddAWqJ5rMay 14, 20171 votes

In reality it goes like this:

ADs get item 3047

Mages get item 3047

Tanks get item 3047

FantasySniperMay 13, 20173 votes

Overall effective health was nerfed. Hard.

This is the reason why every solo tank's winrate dropped this patch. Especially Poppy and Sion.

Ok sure but whyMay 13, 20178 votes

Especially after the health nerf to nearly every other item

I remember when Riot nerfed the item, they said, "This thing doesn't scale too well in the late game. Hopefully this nerf will fix that!" ??????

ErockandrollMay 13, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=JZ Jora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M8iEhE58,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-13T00:20:28.408+0000)

Especially after the health nerf to nearly every other item

I remember when Riot nerfed the item, they said, "This thing doesn't scale too well in the late game. Hopefully this nerf will fix that!" ??????

No, it did do the Job of hyper tanking. But what I recall was Riot wanting to move Cinderhulk away from the late game space that Devourer held. But now that Devourer's gone, the change really doesn't make sense anymore, so why not allow Tank Junglers that High HP ratio like they use to have?

Asayake 5150glowMay 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, it did do the Job of hyper tanking. But what I recall was Riot wanting to move Cinderhulk away from the late game space that Devourer held. But now that Devourer's gone, the change really doesn't make sense anymore, so why not allow Tank Junglers that High HP ratio like they use to have?

Because the diver's would abuse it? Namely Heca and Vi. It'd probably need some base health nerfs.

TheSingularityMay 13, 20178 votes

2 words and one solution

QUILL COAT

exiledFromBadmenMay 13, 20171 votes

Yes, that item was sadly in the game for a too short time period.

TheSingularityMay 13, 20173 votes

That item was perfect, just like pre work Velkoz .

Since it only added armour, HP, mana/HP, a ward, sapping bards and couldn't be built into any fancy damage item, it was never abused by other champ categories. It allowed tanks who usually struggled to do anything like nautilus and malhpite to shine without them being overly oppressive as they could still be invaded and counter jungled (since it didn't grant any damage stats vs champs).

Then riot removes it cos it doesn't fit the smite structure..... when I saw the first smite based health item with the only stat being +300 health or something..... I flipped my shit

exiledFromBadmenMay 14, 20171 votes

That item wasn't that bad. At least not even close to the badly designed first Cinderhulk.

Who is TaliyahMay 13, 20173 votes

Why back to 25%? Cinderhulk looks a bit weak imo, but at 25% it was too strong. Why not try out 20%.

SlampieceHawkeMay 13, 20172 votes

I like rational people like you. It does need a buff and you're not supporting huge buff increases... something riot enacts far too often.

Mira Arya EntheMay 13, 20172 votes

Nah it would have to be 150% before people were satisfied. And AD/AP/CDR would have to be removed.

SohleksMay 13, 20172 votes

Cinderhulk should perhaps be better.

A large % bonus like that is how it initially released. I think it was changed away from that because it doesn't necessarily make it the ideal first item unless it's just that strong. But with its burn being mostly strong for PvE only could still function in a logically balanced and useful spot.

What I mean taken more extreme it could have very little health and a huge % bonus and it isn't a good first item but the item every jungle would switch to late game. I do have memories playing Mundo jungle between season 5 and 6 when he was OP at that and getting more mileage from rushing Spirit Visage against enough AP because it had significantly better effective health than cinderhulk.

Ofc that is Mundo and SV had 20% cdr back then plus SV is a more expensive item

Jar Jar binks lMay 13, 20172 votes

This is a great Idea, or atleast give cinderhulk 700 HP

RacoonHunterMay 13, 20172 votes

I wouldn't say buff it. I would say nerf things like item 3153 . if you buff cinderhulk, you end up forcing Everyone to still take that overtuned item that riot is too fucking lazy to even acknowledge that there's an issue there.

I do agree that there is a major issue right now in terms of tank itemization. Cinderhulk should def be looked at, although I don't think buffing the health is the way to go with it..

Also, can we do something about all the life steal going around? 2 lifesteal items (the standard that everyone is doing especially top lane it seems) is able to outheal both Executioners calling AND morellos..

LordForrestMay 13, 20172 votes

Uh, grievous wounds doesn't stack. So I am not sure if you should be more or less outraged.

RacoonHunterMay 13, 20171 votes

it should because that's probably the only way to deal with all this lifesteal going around.

MARSILKSMay 13, 20173 votes

Unsure of that point to be honest, they were so weak that they buffed them last patch. It was always more effective to get crit or lethality, you very rarely see people build a straight up lifesteal build because then they have no damage. And grevious wounds still completely destroy anyone with lifesteal.

CatastrophicMay 14, 20171 votes

Tell that to Fiora item 3074 item 3071 item 3812 item 3065

EDIT: I actually agree, Grevious wounds shits on lifesteal, but I just think fiora is overall an unfair champ

Whut Thuh May 13, 20172 votes

consider this? do you want to fight a chogath with 40-50 thousand hp? neither do i item 1401 item 3193 item 3083

SlampieceHawkeMay 13, 20173 votes

problem is chogath. not the items

Whut Thuh May 14, 20171 votes

personally with the addition of stoneplate, hp stacking chanps are just really good right now, chogath included. any adc that doesnt build bork is trash right now