"We won't nerf Lee Sin because we need to assess him more and focus on other champions"

U4fyn2vZzW·Jan 17, 2015·72 votes·3,962 views

Discount

You did a break job "Assessing" them when you swung the nerfbat hardcore XD

76 Comments

Long Dong WukongJan 17, 201532 votes

L C S B I G P L A Y S B O Y S

Brb acknowledging that we're all about big plays subtly in our patch notes and then brushing it aside like we never said it. Just like that scene with Eminem in The Interview :\

Rew711Jan 17, 201512 votes

The problem is, people want to see diverse plays in the LCS.

Remember when Poppy was chosen? It was the major even no one could get over for weeks.

If Riot would focus on buffing champions that are barely played and nerfing champions that are played too much, then we might have a better roster.

Rinky DinkyJan 17, 20157 votes

I pray for the day that Lee Sin finally gets brought in line.

The amount of champions that would rise in the jungle, and even outside of the jungle, will be amazing.

If they do these dfg compensation buffs right, we might see quite a few mages become more popular or get some much needed buffs/tweaks.

Looking at you Morde and eve :3

Chaotic ReksJan 18, 20152 votes

Mordekaiser HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE

OperationDEEZ1Jan 18, 20153 votes

Yeah but for now Lee is ulting Zed into the nerfbat. Not to say the fuckwad doesn't deserve it.

ZamiakeJan 18, 20152 votes

Or maybe they should just change all champions to actually carry game changing potenial in all champions instead of others being weaker then others. Like sorka. Can hardly do anything even with 400 ap and building support like items. She cna hardly shift the tide of the game at all in late game. Her ult is cool and all but if there is a super crit champions its worthless (like tryn). And as an ult it should never become inherently worthless

KalarepaJan 18, 20154 votes

I wonder, do people really still enjoy watching Lee Sin's "big plays". Personally, for some time no matter what amazing play Lee Sin does in LCS, I'm like "meh, it's just Lee Sin".

DreamReaper123Jan 17, 201530 votes

I think everyone would rather have a balanced game then watch pros play the same champion all the time.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 17, 20151 votes

Or just have the pros play "one for all: mirror mode" on Summoner's Rift and Lee Sin is automatically chosen for everyone. New gamemode?

DatKivaJan 18, 20151 votes

in the land of the blind

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 18, 20151 votes

Speaking of "blind", the screen would be blurry for the whole time. I was gonna say something about the Lee Sin players starting at 18, and having 300K gold upon the match's start, but I think that this would have to be another game mode

Hypochondria9Jan 18, 20151 votes

I thought that at one point too, but then since happened link. Seriously people had a chance to make them play any champ they want and this is what got voted in.

Im so bad yuckJan 17, 201524 votes

'We'd nerf Lee Sin but we're afraid of community backlash'

Yeah, and mentioning Zed's OP but no nerf yet because 'we love bigplays'.

GJ Riot. No need to even pretend you're going to balance anything. Just nerf them non-flashy champions to oblivion.

AbodyHUN666Jan 17, 20153 votes

They will nerf Zed next patch alongside the removal of DFG. I think the balance team is reasonably afraid of the Lee nerf/rework because of how most of the pro scene loves him the way he is.

A Superb VillainJan 17, 201523 votes

LeeSin is the gauge by which Riot measures other champions; the closer they come to competing with Lee Sin's dominance, the more urgent nerfs become.

I mean, that is what I assumed. There must be a reason for Lee Sin to be so disgustingly powerful, and not simply out of blind favoritism.

Right?

Tentacle LoveJan 17, 201524 votes

...blind favoritism...

LeeSin : Even I saw what you did there.

TaylorGaylorJan 18, 20151 votes

I thought I was going to be the first person to comment on that...

...then I scrolled down.

Hasztalan2Jan 17, 201515 votes

Didn't we get used to their bs in x years?:)

Rinky DinkyJan 17, 201513 votes

Dont forget Sona .

She was such an oppresive lane bully with no counterplay.

Its not like any other supp could all in her at level one and kill her in 3 auto's or anything...

Including Janna....

cshakesJan 17, 20155 votes

No, Janna can't do that. Level 1, Janna has 52 AD. Her shield gives her an extra 14 AD. That's 66 AD total while the shield is active. 3 × 66 = 198

Sona has 20.5 Armor and 482 HP. The damage multiplier for physical damage is 100/(100+20.5) = 0.83 (about). That means that Sona will take 0.83 × 198 = 164 damage, leaving her with 318 HP, which is greater than zero, which means that she is not dead.

Now, before you complain about runes and such and Janna obviously having Spellthief's Edge, remember that I left out the fact that while Janna is sitting at 475 range, Sona can easily Q+aa back with her 550 aa range (and break Janna's shield and bonus AD with a single Q+aa). Sona's autoattack animation is crappy, so she probably can't kite Janna, but she'll have first strike bonus.

Rinky DinkyJan 17, 20153 votes

Of course I was exaggerating, but if a Janna was to come in, shield herself, and ignite me, the fight would be very close.

In some cases I honestly do think that janna could win that fight.

If her adc is with her, Sona would without a doubt be dead/flashing.

People say Sona is unskilled. but she may be the riskiest supp you can take. Feast or Famine at its finest, Mess up ONCE and you will die at level one, 2, 3, 4, or 5. 6 Is the only time Sona is safe because she can just ult you if she messes up, but then she losses all of her all-in potential.

I applaud you for the maths tho.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 18, 20151 votes

I was impressed with the maths too. Who knew this game required so much thinking? But, maybe if a Janna player took the tornado, and let it charge up all the way, as you were hiding in the bush, maybe you would be able to deal enough damage, and surprise the Sona? idk, I've been playing as Janna a bit recently, and Janna is pretty fun, imo I just wish I could be as good as Sona. I guess I'm just used to other Supports(or Mages who are able to Support) that have more range/damage/CC.

cshakesJan 18, 20153 votes

I like math. :P

At rank 1, a fully charged tornado deals 105 magic damage (and eats 90 mana).

Sona has 30 MRes, leading to a multiplier of 100/(100+30) = 0.77 (rounded). So Janna would deal 105 × 0.77 = 81 magic damage. So the tornado deals less damage than three shielded autos. (And is really hard to hit, since it travels rather slowly.)

A short bit on "when to pick", since you might appreciate it: Supports can be broadly categorized into 4 types: Engage, Poke, Sustain, Disengage. If all types are in balance, Disengage beats Engage beats Sustain beats Poke beats Disengage. The archetypical supports: Engage: Leona Poke: Karma Sustain: Soraka Disengage: Janna Most supports are hybrids, however. Sona is Poke/Sustain, Taric is Engage/Sustain, Thresh is Engage/Disengage/Poke and so forth. Most have one type in which they're strongest, and countering this can be a good thing to do in champion select.

Example: the enemy picks Morgana, a Disengage/Engage champion. The ideal counter would be a Poke/Disengage support. Potential picks: Zyra, Karma. Now, in reality, you should consider in more detail what the enemy champion does and which champions are stronger than most of their class, but this is a good baseline.

Fury and EmperorJan 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

A short bit on "when to pick", since you might appreciate it: Supports can be broadly categorized into 4 types: Engage, Poke, Sustain, Disengage. If all types are in balance, Disengage beats Engage beats Sustain beats Poke beats Disengage.

Unfortunately, you're wrong. You just pick the best support, because the differences between the archetypes have little impact compared to just picking the Thresh with the overloaded kit.

cshakesJan 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afgudins Fráuja,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LzjmvmqP,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-18T13:04:06.753+0000)

Unfortunately, you're wrong. You just pick the best support, because the differences between the archetypes have little impact compared to just picking the Thresh with the overloaded kit.

Note the obligatory "If all types are in balance". :P Also, it might help a bit with counterpicking Thresh. (Janna is good.)

TaylorGaylorJan 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I was impressed with the maths too. Who knew this game required so much thinking? But, maybe if a Janna player took the tornado, and let it charge up all the way, as you were hiding in the bush, maybe you would be able to deal enough damage, and surprise the Sona? idk, I've been playing as Janna a bit recently, and Janna is pretty fun, imo I just wish I could be as good as Sona. I guess I'm just used to other Supports(or Mages who are able to Support) that have more range/damage/CC.

Healing. Don't forget healing. Honestly, I think this is why Riot keeps nerfing Sona. Because she has decent, fairly-easy poke AND THEN she follows it up immediately afterwards with a heal to reverse all the poke you just did to her and her ADC. I believe this is why her laning phase is considered "oppressive" by Riot. Healing is VERY important in the laning phase because you don't have to B as much and the only other good supports who can heal are Soraka and Karma and only Karma is close to Sona, IMO.

They can nerf Sona all day long but a good Sona with a smart ADC is gonna make you open your mouth wide on the curb of the sidewalk while you stomp the back of their head into it all day long #AmericanHistoryX and that is never going to change no matter how much they nerf her.

Sona is awesome!

Rinky DinkyJan 18, 20152 votes

Sorry but Sona's heal is garbage and offers little to no sustain in lane.

She will go oom after two casts of w, if you are poking with q.

The heal is not worth using unless you or your adc is almost dead, or if you need to get your passive up faster.

RatbertJan 18, 20152 votes

"Karma" is only a self healer now. Nami is a good support who can heal, as is (maybe was) alistar. People forget that shields are forms of sustain.

cshakesJan 18, 20151 votes

My opinion as a Janna main who plays a lot of Sona on the side is that Sona is one of Janna's lane counters. Sona can eliminate Janna's shield in a single Q+aa, stripping the shield-bearer of the extra AD. Sona Q also costs less mana than Janna E IIRC.

Now, Sona does have some really dreadful matchups (Thresh and his ilk), but Janna isn't one of them.

Rinky DinkyJan 18, 20151 votes

I know friend. Was an exaggeration.

Also, how bad was the q nerf Janna recieved? I have not had the opportunity to play her again since the patch.

cshakesJan 18, 20151 votes

Haven't really noticed it. Her strong point has always been her E, and it's still possible to cancel dashes with an aimed Q. The amount of collateral damage (knocking up the Ashe that was near the enemy Akali whose dash I canceled etc) has gone down a bit, but I don't expect this to matter much.

FantasySniperJan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted} She still is such an oppresive lane bully with next to no counterplay.

Fixed that for ya.

Rinky DinkyJan 18, 20156 votes

If this is Sarcasm, I salute you.

If you actually believe this, My heart aches for your ignorance. May you gain some intelligence soon.

If Sona is an oppressive lanebully, than Taric is a hypercarry.

BeersteinJan 17, 201512 votes

Calm down, they've only had 3 years to assess him, give them time man, time!

straight4freeJan 17, 20153 votes

Cass wasn't nerfed too bad.

U4fyn2vZzWJan 17, 20153 votes

You're joking right ?

causeimdabatmanJan 17, 20151 votes

Its not really riots fault, its the guy who does the patch notes, did you know hes only in silver, silver people, the guy were letting nerf and buff has no concept of the game.

EndGamer11Jan 17, 201514 votes

There is more than ONE person who controls balance, there is a whole team.

causeimdabatmanJan 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There is more than ONE person who controls balance, there is a whole team.

But the main guy who writes the patch notes and makes the final decisions is silver

PonderousSealionJan 17, 201516 votes

{quoted}

But the main guy who writes the patch notes and makes the final decisions is silver

I'm sorry, but you're a moron.

a: That could be his Riot account and he could very well be in a higher elo bracket.

b: Pwyff doesn't even make the balance decisions. He just writes the patch notes, which have been explained to him already by members of the balance team. Their rationale has already been told to him; he just has to make it interesting.

c: He doesn't make the final decisions, do you understand how anything works?

His job is just to make the patch notes fun to read. Don't be dumb.

causeimdabatmanJan 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry, but you're a moron.

a: That could be his Riot account and he could very well be in a higher elo bracket.

b: Pwyff doesn't even make the balance decisions. He just writes the patch notes, which have been explained to him already by members of the balance team. Their rationale has already been told to him; he just has to make it interesting.

c: He doesn't make the final decisions, do you understand how anything works?

His job is just to make the patch notes fun to read. Don't be dumb.

do you know how to read? It obviously says the main dude who not only makes the decisions for what gets nerfed/buffed but also writes the patch notes main points is silver, hes silver 3

WhereTheNamesAtJan 17, 20156 votes

LOOK KID. ARE YOU FUCKING DUMB? Being silver 3 means absolutely nothing. Riot is a huge ass company and has hundreds of people in the balancing game department. ONE person does not have the power to say who gets nerfed and who gets buffed.

causeimdabatmanJan 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

LOOK KID. ARE YOU FUCKING DUMB? Being silver 3 means absolutely nothing. Riot is a huge ass company and has hundreds of people in the balancing game department. ONE person does not have the power to say who gets nerfed and who gets buffed.

do you have any idea how business works? because thats exactly how it works. Theres one guys that everyone has to go through and he makes the decisions.

WhereTheNamesAtJan 18, 20157 votes

So you actually think that one person walks in and says, "I want you guys to buff Swain and Elise. I also want you guys to nerf Yasuo, Zed, Syndra, and Kha'zix."

No. There is a whole team of people that collect data and as a group they decide the best actions to take against the champs to make them fair. I can guarantee you one person does not decide who gets buffs and who doesn't.

DestínumJan 18, 20157 votes

I sincerely hope for your own sake that you're trolling right now.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 18, 20151 votes

What about Teemo? He's technically a God, and I think Gods have the power to make anything happen (He IS the God of the Underworld)

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 18, 20151 votes

People who are in Silver 3, have a good enough understanding of the game to know what should be buffed/nerfed. I'm in Silver 5, and I have a good understanding about what is fair, and what should be fixed to compensate for being underpowered, or overpowered. I'm sorry, but for all who disagree with what I am about to say, Sona's Power Chord and Q nerfs were justified. The combination of those two attacks are pretty strong, given the person behind was building enough AP for power, and Health/Armor/Magic Resist for defense. Then again, she can melt squishies in the early game kind of easily(as long as they're in rang, ofc) and struggles against tanks who have excellent CC or all-ins, as well as when the rest of the team gains Health and Strength. Sona's Heal/Shield, however, is on the lack-luster side of things, but once Sona gets more AP... BOOM! Better healing, better power when it comes to burst, and more speed. I just feel like Sona's late game power(disregarding her ultimate) could be improved, and transfer some of her early game power to the late game power. And, BTW, I'm pretty sure he mostly just writes the notes on what was added, removed, fixed, buffed, nerfed, and updated.

Champion SkinJan 18, 20151 votes

The problem with Sona building Ap is then she keeps being so incredibly squishy and vulnerable give her short ranges and if she doesn't build ap then her W+Q kind of become mostly useless or at the very least rather weak

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 18, 20151 votes

Yeah, exactly

Champion SkinJan 18, 20152 votes

I think maybe they could buff Sona's AP ratios slightly as Riot seems to want to make Sona build AP If that is too strong in lane you could simply make her ap ratios increase with each rank in the ability Or maybe with the rank of her ult Or maybe something like making her shield last longer the more AP she has as currently the fact that Sona has to run around and tag people with it and the short duration generally means that you won't get much use of the shield

(unless of course everyone stands around Sona while she uses W and then they all get hit by an AoE... but that in and of itself would be a bad thing having your entire team hit by an AoE... though you would get to use all of the shields)