Why put the damage reduction of PD on a marksman item?

Ralanr··54 votes·3,261 views

Now I know that most marksmen are kinda in the toilet right now, but this bugged me from another thread. Why put a defensive passive that powerful on a ranged champion?

But Ralanr, adcs aren't the only people that build crit!

Not many melee carries even build crit! The only ones I can think of is Yasuo Gangplank Tryndamere and MasterYi. And MasterYi only builds it because there are so few straight attack speed items!

Now granted, many melee carries (or Skirmishers as they are called) also have situational defenses, so having PD damage reduction on them just seems a bit more overkill imo. So why not put it on an item more suited for a class that deserves it?

Tanks?

No. Assassins.

You're insane

No, I'm angry but that's unrelated. One problem is that assassins get bursted down before they can execute their combos. So why not give them a damage reduction item? Ignoring obvious monsters (Hint: The AVP Duo Rengar and Khazix) I think that it would work well gameplay wise and thematically.

You can bonus movement speed and avoid unit collision towards your intended target? Sounds perfect for a class built with better target selection!

So how do we make it an assassin item? Well (Sorry AP Assassins/Penns) we turn it from a crit heavy item to an AD/lethality heavy focused item.

Something like item 3134+item 1042+item 1036= Umbral Stalker.

Thoughts?

94 Comments

ZephyrDrake15 votes

it's meant to be the duelist option of the Zeal items. They each give a distinct feature and without the passive the entire feature of PD would be "this item just has higher stats than the others" which was not enough before for people to bother picking it over static

Ralanr4 votes

But ADCs aren't meant to duel everyone.

ZephyrDrake19 votes

{quoted}

But ADCs aren't meant to duel everyone.

then what are Lucian Vayne Draven Quinn supposed to do then? There are ADCs who are meant to duel people, just like there are some who are great teamfighters and some that are more utility focused

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

{quoted}

then what are Lucian Vayne Draven Quinn supposed to do then? There are ADCs who are meant to duel people, just like there are some who are great teamfighters and some that are more utility focused

yeah but adcs fucking weakness is supposed to be solo killing them. they beat melee in team fights for obvious reasons. thats not healthy.

Raven Redeemed4 votes

ADC's weakness is not being dueled but being bursted which is why assassins and mages are their natural counter. Tanks counter assassins and mages. ADCs counter tanks. That's the basics at least.

ZephyrDrake10 votes

{quoted}

yeah but adcs fucking weakness is supposed to be solo killing them. they beat melee in team fights for obvious reasons. thats not healthy.

sorry but no!

i guess that all tops have the same weakness right? also all junglers? as well as all midlaners and supports? all divers? all tanks? all juggernauts? every single class/role/whatever has champions whose weakness are not the same. There are ADCs that are weak against 1v1s, there are some that are terrible teamfighters, there are some that are terrible at waveclear. Just like there are some ADCs that shine in either teamfights, 1v1s or waveclearing. You cannot just say "X class is supposed to be weak against Y thing" and assume that it applies to every single member of that class. That is not how the game works. Sorry to burst your bubble

doublelift fg3 votes

adc is a class that stay behind and unleash a billion of damage

they aren't supposed to 1v1 anyone, vayne wasn't even supposed to be a duelist and then riot said "oh look let's keep this feature for this champion" which is a massive bad idea since she's been either underpowered or broken since release

PermabannedGaren7 votes

{quoted}

But ADCs aren't meant to duel everyone.

Late game? They duel very well, and more importantly ADCs often end up dueling each other, and it's a trait ADCs are balanced around. Like how Vayne is meant to be able to, all other things being equal and past laning phase, duel any other ADC.

ADCs are actually decent duelists. Most tanks can't duel them late game, probably no actual support can (and by support I mean a kit support like Ivern or Janna, as opposed to a Brand in the support role), many mages fall to them, even some fighters lose to ADCs 1v1 late game. The only classes that almost universally beat ADCs 1v1 in the late game are skirmishers and assassins, with the former having dueling as one of their key strengths, and the latter having the burst to outright delete them before they can think to lifesteal any damage (Rengar, Kha'Zix) or having tools that let them avoid said lifestealing auto attacks (Talon, Fizz, LeBlanc).

So yeah, I guess they aren't meant to duel everyone. But not being able to duel everyone doesn't mean they can't duel anyone.

Quepha7 votes

{quoted}

But ADCs aren't meant to duel everyone.

And PD doesn't let them duel everyone, they just duel much better than usual.

Keep in mind the alternative zeal options give constant AoE damage, burst with waveclear, or extra range, all of these things are insanely powerful things that can either make up for a weakness or enhance an already-present strength.

MontethePython4 votes

Exactly, and depending on the champion and situation different ADCs use different zeal items. Jhin, MissFortune and Draven usually use item 3094 because they use hard hitting single target abilities and autos along with utility and ok dueling. Caitlyn Jinx Tristana Ashe and Twitch use almost exclusively item 3085, because they're auto attack, lifesteal, and teamfight oriented, and Ruunan's let's them target multiple enemies and thus lifesteal and damage more in teamfights. Vayne Sivir Quinn Kalista use item 3087 because they have a tendency to split push, this item gives them good waveclear to do so as well, this way they're decent in teamfights, and good duelists, due also to the the burst crit which tends to work well with both their specific playstyles' and kits'. Really only Lucian, and occasionally Draven build item 3046 for the hardcore dueling and survivability it gives, mostly because these are the closer range ADCs who need more survivability along with their lifesteal to be able to win sustained fights. I can't see a huge issue with it when mostly only Lucian and melee ADCs use it. They are usually extremely high risk champions that use item 3046, and they use it because they need it when their jobs are to jump into a malphite and team's face in a teamfight and not die instantly before unloading their damage, trying to make it to the back line, and maybe surviving.

Magi Mayvin2 votes

You can build 2 zeal items on an any of those though which I guess you kinda forgot.I often see vayne build both statikk and PD

MontethePython1 votes

Yeah but if vayne buys PD she loses on a lot of burst and q damage potential, plus she needs the statik + q crit to one shot squishies that can burst her down late game. She loses out on a lot of burst and kill potential if she goes PD. I was mostly using a general guide to explain who uses what, but it's true, some can build differently, Lucian can pick up an RFC and do pretty well, Jhin sometimes builds 2 zeal items for more kiting potential and movespeed due to his passive(s) however those are situational and not usually the best options for most scenarios. That's why i really only used the zeal items which were core on the champions in question.

Verdade2 votes

I played since S1, when ADCs had MUCH more damage than they do now, supports were MUCH more powerful. Yet, ADCs didn't felt nearly as oppressive as they do now.

Guess why.

Weathered1 votes

You'll need to break this to them gently then.

Ralanr1 votes

Clearly they disagree. Everyone wants to meet me in the streets at high noon.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

it's meant to be the duelist option of the Zeal items. They each give a distinct feature and without the passive the entire feature of PD would be "this item just has higher stats than the others" which was not enough before for people to bother picking it over static

Shiv can also easily win duels lol

ZephyrDrake3 votes

{quoted}

Shiv can also easily win duels lol

and? it can also be used as waveclear just like Runnan's and can even be used to damage champions outside of your normal range when used appropriately like RFC

Penns10 votes

item 3070

Ralanr8 votes

Why is Fizz magic anyway? He stabs people.

Penns4 votes

True.. but his trident is enchanted so it kinda makes sense. But personally, I think assassins should avoid damage, not reduce it, thats why I dont like Fizz passive (beyond the fact that it does nothing anyway).

Ralanr2 votes

Oh yeah, he has a AA reduction passive. He really doesn't need that imo.

Penns6 votes

Define "doesnt need".. imo he needs something way better to actually lane against 90% mid laners.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

It's a magic trident!

Or something.

Matake3 votes

Same reason Kat does magic damage.

Phoenix Kotori 3 votes

item 3812 exists for assassins, as does item 3156 item 3053 item 3814 I generally feel that's enough survive options for assassins. Also Yi likes crit cause his Q & passive can crit.

RavenMagus3 votes

Well (Sorry AP Assassins/Penns) we turn it from a crit heavy item to an AD/lethality heavy focused item.

Why is all the assassin love always in the form of AD items though?

Akali Fizz item 3070

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Personally, I love building Phantom Dancer on Shyvana for the damage reduction and mobility.

Shyvana item 3047 item 1416 item 3748 item 3022 item 3026 item 3046 item 2140

The burst and sustained damage is hilarious and it is rather easily to stick to a target.

Pupel1 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I love building Phantom Dancer on Shyvana for the damage reduction and mobility.

Shyvana item 3047 item 1416 item 3748 item 3022 item 3026 item 3046 item 2140

The burst and sustained damage is hilarious and it is rather easily to stick to a target.

How do you make it in a 5v5?

EndlessSorcerer3 votes

Honestly, it can work fairly decently in 5v5 fights.

While I don't have many defensive items, I still have a significant amount of health and decent resistances. In return, I can deal a massive amount of (AOE) damage very quickly and shred them afterwards; R -> E -> AA -> Twin Fang -> Titanic Hydra will deal a lot of damage rather quickly, especially if any of them happen to critically strike.

Generally, I use my ultimate to reach the enemy back-line and chase them down while my team occupied their frontline. Though, picking skirmishes or duels are probably a better use of your strength.

Chilling Smite and Phantom Dancer help me reach my target(s) while Frozen Mallet lets me stick to them afterwards.

Elixir of Wrath is especially useful since it lets you heal from the damage dealt by Bloodrazor and Titanic Hydra.

It probably isn't a build you want to use if you fall behind due to lower durability. However, if you manage to get ahead, your level advantage provides sufficient durability to get away with a higher damage build.

Also, you probably want an actual tank to initiate fights.

Geshultz1 votes

Cause Phantom dancer is only 12% max health worth of value for a single target and requires to be hit by an auto/ability first and if it was put onto bruisers/tanks they would abuse heck out of it like graves did when he was highly overpowered. And 12% max hp on a marksmen at max lvl normally gets at most 2.2k HP with bloodthirster shield maxed which is at best on a single target is effectively 264 health which honestly isn't that much compared to were most tanks get around 4k-5k health making it 500+ effective hp. (Essentially Ninja Tabis are really over powered at the moment)

HeresyHorus2 votes

dude the problem is when u combine PD + DD ( i do it on every AD champ squishy or tanky its just too good )

u have 12% dmg reduction for PD . and u have a potential 15% dmg reduction from DD becuase with DD lifesteal + warlord, spirit visage or another source of healing u usually will EASILY eliminate the dmg debuff from DD .

Graves is most known for abusing this shit on top of his innate tankiness + AD rabadon on his AA .

27% flat dmg reduction on a "squishy" with scaling life runes + high natural hp + item 3156 and/or mechanics that let them abuse life steal is NOT ok ( burst + DPS + range + tank ).

item 3046 item 3812 item 3031 and u are pretty much set and can build whatever u want after that .

Glory ln Death1 votes

Why would tanks be buying an item designed for assassins?

Verdade1 votes
  1. no. 12% damage reduction is MUCH better than +12% max health. 12% damage reduction means all heals/absorbs you get are 12% stronger
Sahn Uzal1 votes

Sure. But give me a new zeal item to build. If this is what my build looks like item 3078 item 3158 item 3031 item 3087 I don't want to build item 3094 or item 3085 on Gangplank just for the Crit Chance T_T

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

It's sad that GP could go tanky or with fighter items, but now the only viable build is to be a crit monkey...

Sahn Uzal1 votes

He still can, it's just that long ranged AoE damage is quite effective :P item 3078 item 3111 item 3053 item 3742 item 3065 item 3748 this sounds like a lot of fun still ^^

BastionKross1 votes

Did you mean "ineffective"?

I can't imagine a viable GP build that doesn't involve crits and barrels is possible at a decent elo and above. That was one of the things about the GP rework I just couldn't stand.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

it's just that long ranged AoE damage is quite effective :P

Long ranged AoE damage is quite effective, that's why Crit Gangplank will probably stay the optimal way to build Gangplank.

Tanky GP with a build like the one I showed is fun.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

lets you specialize in dueling. one of the few ways adcs can get any survivability at all. its not exactly a randuins.

Ralanr1 votes

Except lifesteal is a thing.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

yeah. one lifesteal item and maybe phantom dancer. so op.

Ralanr1 votes

Lifesteal is an ADC defensive stat.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

yeah and? I said it was one of the few ways, I didn't say the only way. why do people on this board cry so much about adcs, when on reddit adc's so weak its a meme.

Ralanr1 votes

Because both groups have much different sizes in communities.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

and because this one is just the cesspool of league lets be honest

Ralanr1 votes

Eh, they're both shit.

Verdade1 votes

S1 ADCs had MUCH, MUCH more damage than they do now. S1 Supports had MUCH more power than they do now.

Yet, ADCs didn't felt nearly as oppressive as they do now. Figure out why. Hint: look at how many utility/defense items ADCs had then and how many they do have now.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

uhh, a lifesteal item, maybe a phantom dancer?

adcs aren't even oppressive. theres some weird bronze myth on this forum only that adcs are op. but you go on reddit or talk to most players, adcs are actually a meme because of how bad they are rn.

grug1 votes

Yasuo gets so much cost effectiveness out of PD, arguably the biggest powerspike in the game for an item taht doesn't even have flat damage.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Don't we have item 3812 already? PD has it's niche so I don't think it should get removed and %dmg reduction is kind of awkward in my opinion so one class shouldn't have two items like that..

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