Reworks: Who Needs Them?

SSmotzer·Oct 17, 2017·1 votes·695 views

This is an honest question.

From what everyone is telling me, nearly every champion just don't need a rework, regardless of the situation.

In my naivete I used to think every champion needed a rework, and that there was no such thing as perfect, but it should always be strived for, no matter how close you came. I believed that no matter how good something works, it's always in the best interest to 'reinvent the wheel' no matter how good it already was.

I don't know.... maybe a public forum isn't the best place to share new and interesting ideas for things we already have... maybe I am just stupid for thinking differently, or maybe I just can't see how "perfect" champions already are...

48 Comments

ChiTenshiOct 17, 20174 votes

Aatrox - Killed by Riot DrMundo - Outdated Fiddlesticks - Outdated Leblanc - Balance issues Nunu - Outdated Olaf - Outdated/Balance issues Rengar - Balance issues Ryze - Lol Singed - Outdated Skarner - Killed by Riot Swain - Outdated Tryndamere - Outdated/Balance issues Udyr - Outdated Volibear - Outdated Yasuo - Balance issues

MarvelOtterOct 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

- Killed by Riot - Outdated - Outdated - Balance issues - Outdated - Outdated/Balance issues - Balance issues - Lol - Outdated - Killed by Riot - Outdated - Outdated/Balance issues - Outdated - Outdated - Balance issues

i agree on most of this except singed:he may be outdated, but his kit works for him thats really the only thing. swain is iffy, but i dunno

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

You can't think of any possible way Singed's kit could be improved? No idea comes into your head about a mad chemist that Signed doesn't already do?

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

There's plently of design space for another mad chemist. Singed could probably even do well if he had a total shift in lore.

But what singed does in gameplay he does well, and nobody else comes close to his same style, play pattern or feel. If you want another Mad Chemist, let it be just that: an additional champion. It's not like adding Ekko to the game hurt Zilean at all. Nor should it have.

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

Well they do time travel differently. Zilean is more Dr. Who and Ekko is more Groundhogs Day.

I don't know, Singed's kit is very bare bones, and you could probably fit his entire existing kit into like 2 abilities. There's a lot of potential you could squeeze out of Singed's theme to place in those 2 abilities.

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

Well they do time travel differently. Zilean is more Dr. Who and Ekko is more Groundhogs Day.

exactly!

Singed's kit is very bare bones, and you could probably fit his entire existing kit into like 2 abilities

You're right. his primary gameplay is, in fact, on 2 abilities. Q and R. all sorts of things could be done with his other abilities. (This is also true of Zilean though) His other abilities let him do his job better. but they don't really stand out.

But it makes a lot more sense to me to have that 2nd chemist champion before trying to do heavy work on singed. or build them both at the same time.

Singed is very much "kill them all with a plague of toxic fumes". That's what his core is. If you delve too much into fancy other abilities that core can be diluted very quickly.

If you want to have some crazy guy guzzling potions for different buffs, throwing splash effect healing bombs, or setting alchemist's fire in strategic locations... I don't think that guy is Singed. I think we have a place for that guy, but I think he ought to have his own name.

Paladin 0f LifeOct 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

i agree on most of this except singed:he may be outdated, but his kit works for him thats really the only thing. swain is iffy, but i dunno

Swain does not need his kit scraped, rito could easily change his W and modify the E and maybe passive and ult but Q, E and ult are fine and fit his kit of a tyrant. The E is just annoying to play against I get but as a swain main, seriously look it up, I feel this is very uneccsary when he just needs a new sustain dmg W and VGU

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

Well Swain is getting a new identity, don't you think he should have a kit that reflects who is, instead of sticking to what we already have?

Paladin 0f LifeOct 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well Swain is getting a new identity, don't you think he should have a kit that reflects who is, instead of sticking to what we already have?

Lol no I like his kit... a lot actually. They need to make him sustain damage bruiser so just replace W and modify kit a lil.

SSmotzerOct 19, 20171 votes

Well, what about his passive that is redundant with items, or mindless point and click E and skill less R?

The only thing on his Kit right now that is Swain's identity is placing a bird on an area, and then turning into a bird. Maybe he could have a kit more focused on being an up front in your face demon bird man?

Maybe giving him more control over his bird, or the ability to fly.... or eat dead people.... That's something Swain would do.

Paladin 0f LifeOct 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well, what about his passive that is redundant with items, or mindless point and click E and skill less R?

The only thing on his Kit right now that is Swain's identity is placing a bird on an area, and then turning into a bird. Maybe he could have a kit more focused on being an up front in your face demon bird man?

Maybe giving him more control over his bird, or the ability to fly.... or eat dead people.... That's something Swain would do.

His E is the only thing that allows him to farm early since it provides harass that is sure fire. R actually needs a decent bit of skill to use for farm vs fights, and that mana cost adds up fast. Passive, well its not bad, but its kinda dumb right now. Didnt I state every single one of these things in the post above??? But see the Q mechanic is unique, the R is unique, the could be toyed with but I want a DOT harassment since he is a freaking tyrant and helps is god awful farming.

SSmotzerOct 19, 20171 votes

Oh, you're the same person. Sorry, Riot making all have the same icon is kind of confusing at times.

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

how do you feel about Swain's R??

KaeblenOct 17, 20172 votes

imo Singed and Teemo are examples of incredibly good design.

They may be upsetting to some, but they have lasted the years with no fundamental change. The perform the same roles they used to, and still do them rather well. You may complain about buffs or nerfs, but on the fundamental level they still do exactly what they are meant to.

There are some other champions I feel similarly about, but these two receive the most HATE.

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

Teemo has an active ability that is purely passive. I wouldn't say dedicating one of Teemo's buttons to a passive is a good design. Not to mention Blind has no real counter play for several champions.

The only real good design on Teemo is his stealth, and his stealth has been reworked multiple times in the past couple of years.

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

That's it? These are the only champions you would rework? Once these are reworked should there be any more?

ChiTenshiOct 17, 20171 votes

Over time, more Champions may become outdated as new Champions and Mechanics are introduced. Riot may also break some Champions on the way (we've seen it before).

But for now, yes.

TortungaOct 17, 20172 votes

I would add:

Teemo : outdated Sona : Boring/No counterplay, balance issues Akali ; Balance issues Garen Outdated Chogath Balance issues

And to a lesser extent

Morgana ; Outdated/very linear (she is like half support/half mage without a true identity) ; Not supposed to be a main support champion

ChiTenshiOct 17, 20171 votes

Forgot about Akali .

May want to include Diana then because she's supposed to be a Diver but is in this weird position where she's neither an effective Assassin or Diver.

TortungaOct 17, 20171 votes

She is a bit healthier then Akali, but yeah she could use an update.

Honestly you could prob create a case for almost every champion in game.

And ow might add Ezreal to that list as well. He seems to be able to become something frustrating/slightly OP in every season, with like blue build ez, Jungle ez, Ap ez. etc.

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

Yeah, and now that his W can shield and proc Adrent, he is a bit of a problem.

Forhonor321Oct 17, 20172 votes

For an absolute reworks that needs to happen next within the next few reworks planned: Nunu because people ask for him, he's incredibly outdated, both visually and gameplay, and honestly is just a bore to play as. Pantheon he's super linear in gameplay and honestly there's not much you can do against him in lane except take his spears, hope he doesn't dive you/ burst you down, and try to outscale him if you can later in the game. Mordekaiser BECAUSE GOD DAMMIT HE NEEDS SOME GOOD LOVE AFTER HIS CLUSTERFUCK OF A JUGGERNAUT REWORK AND IS A CHAMP I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO PLAY

Champs that need reworks later on after big ones: DrMundo really generitc, huge meat bag that punches you back and gets easily shut down by GW Akali people really don't like playing against since the assassin rework and honestly could use a proper gameplay update along with some visuals Blitzcrank So much power is put into his Q. Either you land it and make your enemies rage with your Q-E combo or you don't and get called bad. Volibear he's now one of the new forgotten champions. He really needs something to bring him back to the game Rengar his assassin rework just failed to satisfy fans and didn't really change anything about the insta-leap delete problem (even though the whole point of that damn class rework was to delay the burst!) Udyr Even with the insane buffs he's getting soon I still feel he needs a rework as he'll probably just get into the same problems again Yasuo Just general balance issues and maybe make him not so fucking cancerous/annoying to play against Malphite I just feel he's lack luster and needs an overhaul. Plus, near instant traveling knockup ult isn't that fun to play against. Kayle Morgana Be nice to have a duel rework with these two as with Nunu are just outdated Leblanc Still has problems from assassin rework and needs to be fully looked at separately Skarner ...his passive spire mini game is shit to play with and against Fiddlesticks outdated Tryndamere isn't fun to play against as he will always just split push non-stop and in low elo be near unbeatable.

Paladin 0f LifeOct 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

For an absolute reworks that needs to happen next within the next few reworks planned: because people ask for him, he's incredibly outdated, both visually and gameplay, and honestly is just a bore to play as. he's super linear in gameplay and honestly there's not much you can do against him in lane except take his spears, hope he doesn't dive you/ burst you down, and try to outscale him if you can later in the game. BECAUSE GOD DAMMIT HE NEEDS SOME GOOD LOVE AFTER HIS CLUSTERFUCK OF A JUGGERNAUT REWORK AND IS A CHAMP I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO PLAY

Champs that need reworks later on after big ones: really generitc, huge meat bag that punches you back and gets easily shut down by GW people really don't like playing against since the assassin rework and honestly could use a proper gameplay update along with some visuals So much power is put into his Q. Either you land it and make your enemies rage with your Q-E combo or you don't and get called bad. he's now one of the new forgotten champions. He really needs something to bring him back to the game his assassin rework just failed to satisfy fans and didn't really change anything about the insta-leap delete problem (even though the whole point of that damn class rework was to delay the burst!) Even with the insane buffs he's getting soon I still feel he needs a rework as he'll probably just get into the same problems again Just general balance issues and maybe make him not so fucking cancerous/annoying to play against I just feel he's lack luster and needs an overhaul. Plus, near instant traveling knockup ult isn't that fun to play against. Be nice to have a duel rework with these two as with Nunu are just outdated Still has problems from assassin rework and needs to be fully looked at separately ...his passive spire mini game is shit to play with and against outdated isn't fun to play against as he will always just split push non-stop and in low elo be near unbeatable.

Lol trynd not that hard to deal with. You can harass and zone so he cant build up rage, and just have an escape ready for his 6 second ult

Linna ExcelOct 19, 20171 votes

Or you take exhaust.

Paladin 0f LifeOct 17, 20171 votes

I mean AAtrox, realistically ekko just has too much on his kit, nerf kayn base dmg and AD ratios, Chos freaking ult true dmg, besides that really just Ryze again for the 4th time this time( i love him but just delete). Irelia possibly and renekton just needs a little more counterplay. Aatrox Ekko Irelia Ryze besides them which the only one really needing a rework is aatrox idk why they messing with swain his player base is significantly higher than 50 other champs and with a 50-51% winrate. Most other champs just need a VGU but now they just doing reworks for the hell of it.

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

There's no other reason to rework a champion?

Just look at Poppy, her rework wasn't just about her kit, besides her ult, but her character. The reason she was reworked was to open up more possibles for future champions. Old Poppy was a blacksmith, delivery girl, ambassador, diplomat, and a super serious yordle. Now Poppy is just a delivery girl. Thanks to her rework we were able to get Ornn without stepping on Poppy's toes about already being a blacksmith.

Take a look at any of the old champions who are overflowing with roles. Ezreal for example is a dungeon diving, world exploring, daring do gooding, treasure finding, puzzle solving, cartographer, dashing adventurer who doesn't play by the rules. Don't you think an Ezreal rework could give new champions a little more wiggle room to breath with these roles?

Or what about Sivir, she is a mercenary queen with a one of a kind magic throwing star and she has Ascended royal blood flowing through her, don't you think she could get a rework to live up to any of the things that make her special?

Paladin 0f LifeOct 19, 20171 votes

But you get the problem of swain who is a tyrant, not a "master" tactician. Never was really. But now he is getting a full rework that is just unnecessary. I get his E and R are "difficult to balance" but reducing dmg and playing with ratios is fine to leave him in an underwhelming state for a patch until a proper buff. But really just his E and passive dont fit his theme... either of them. He is a AP bruiser sustained damage tyrant, or a torturing ruler hence the Q the E and R which fit him and the raven well. He sucks to farm with after ult change but its fine because his E gives a little wiggle room if the idiots dont want a hexdrinker or shield. Other than that he has glaring cooldown windows of about 8-14 seconds and about 14 or so around max cdr for his ult. And his W is nothing but zone control cuz any mobility can easily dodge it and he is dead in most damage matchups until 6 but even then his R its pretty weak now. They could just up his E cooldown or mess with the base dmg and up the ratio so he is less reliable early cuz he cant freaking farm meeles until an item or two.

SSmotzerOct 19, 20171 votes

...What?

You say that his rework "is just unnecessary" but then go off an list every reason why it is necessary.

He is getting a rework to no longer be a tactician, but a tyrant. This will get rid of the aspects of his kit that seem more tactful, like the mana regen, area denial, and ranged spells in order to make him feel more like a giant demon bird man who will eat your eyes.

This will also allow new champions to play the tactician role that Swain was filling, and failing at. There is no part of his rework that seems unnecessary.

Paladin 0f LifeOct 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

...What?

You say that his rework "is just unnecessary" but then go off an list every reason why it is necessary.

He is getting a rework to no longer be a tactician, but a tyrant. This will get rid of the aspects of his kit that seem more tactful, like the mana regen, area denial, and ranged spells in order to make him feel more like a giant demon bird man who will eat your eyes.

This will also allow new champions to play the tactician role that Swain was filling, and failing at. There is no part of his rework that seems unnecessary.

No they said they are starting from scratch this will be a poppy level rework

Jackom1Oct 17, 20171 votes

Udyr Volibear No matter what, everyone will say that these guys need a proper rework, since both their models and kits are outdated, they have a very limited player base, to the point where they can't even get a page on op.gg, and don't have a cohesive identity.

I'll add Nunu and Mordekaiser , they're in the same boat, but they at least have a decent win rate, a dedicated (if very very low) player base, and slightly more decent kits. I'm NOT saying morde has a good kit (just look at the amount of bugs he has), but suprisingly enough his kit works a bit better than udyr's and voli's

SSmotzerOct 17, 20172 votes

And apparently Volibear is some kid of god now, doesn't really feel all that god like to me, besides to broken passive.

So as long as a kit works the champion doesn't need a rework?

Jackom1Oct 17, 20171 votes

Him being a god now IMO should be taken has a hint that rito is looking at him. I can't say if he's going to get a rework right after swain, but I'm 100% sure that he's getting one next year.

Also, rito said that they Voli is supposed to be a juggernaut, and in that regard his kit definitely doesn't work. Well, not that is kit would be ok even for a Tank.

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

He fits the Juggernaut role as well as most others in the class. his speed boot is comparable to garen or skarner. his aoe roar is definately for the 'center of the fight' playstyle. his bite is based on ramping up in battle... much healthier than some other abilities that do that. and his ult? well his ult is weird, but it's definately best from the middle of an extended fight. people can just run from him and wait it out, too. (I wouldn't change his passive. I would add a visual indicator for when it's up, but unless he gets a class change [rework bigger than Galio] it should stay as-is)

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

does Ornn feel like a god to you?

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

His ult feels pretty godlike.

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

No matter what, everyone will say that these guys need a proper rework

Everyone? No. Not everyone.

They may have it coming, but I think Udyr is just fine for another year at least.

SSmotzerOct 17, 20172 votes

So you agree that everyone needs a proper rework?

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

no. I agree that they will probably be reworked, though.

Archlord AatroxOct 17, 20171 votes

My two choices for the next VGU projects would have to be and Nunu . Pantheon had a very linear kit and could benefit really from modernization. Plus, they revisited old Targonian lore, with the advent of Taric update and Aurelion Sol, it had me thinking. They could really push for a well done thematic on him, and this theme of a ruthless Spartan-looking warrior from the cosmos could be cool if updated. Nunu, kinda self explanatory. Old, needs a more defined identity and has a very basic kit. Other contenders I would argue for would be Caitlyn DrMundo Irelia Volibear Mordekaiser

SSmotzerOct 17, 20171 votes

Finally someone who brought up lore not meshing with the character.

I could see a lot of Cait mains arguing with you, but I agree.

Archlord AatroxOct 17, 20171 votes

I mentioned Caitlyn because I think she needs new VO, new animations, etc. I think she's in an OK spot in terms of her kit being modern and consistent, but she needs a makeover. Perhaps a Shen/Fiora style update? Keep her headshot passive, but move it onto a spell, and give her a more engaging passive, at least one new spell, idk just spitballing here.

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

lets trim that list a bit: Pantheon light rework. modernize. Nunu appease the mob: change him enough he can do his job again. DrMundo needs at least one new ability. passive should probably go, just because of Garen overlap. Mordekaiser needs an overhaul. most of his kit is ridden with gimmicks, rather than actually being well made. He also has more bugs than 3 other champions combined, and several are 'intentional for balance'.

KaeblenOct 17, 20171 votes

The biggest reworks right now are global ones.

Marksmen
Supports
Mages

Assassins are hurting because of the state of Marksmen. Tanks are strong, but still hurting because of ... well, Marksmen are the easy scapegoat for them too.

The most important "Rework" coming up isn't going to be a Champion. It's going to be in game fundamentals. Runes is big, but it's going to look like decoration after the one I'm talking about.

ProvengreilOct 17, 20171 votes

Kayle. A major user of shielding and on hit items still weak in a shielding on hit meta. She needs help.

Teridax68Oct 17, 20171 votes

While I personally think most champions could do with some improvements, I feel the general sentiment is that players don't want a champion to be reworked, especially their own favorite champion, unless it is absolutely necessary, and even then, it should try to stay as close to the original as possible. In their push to update the champion roster, Riot has often run into the issue of reworking champions purely for the sake of a rework, or because they just decided from the start that the champion would be an easy target for their roster update. When that happens, the rework is often done with a very limited scope, and ends up being not as pristine as it's expected to be (and often it highlights that champion's need for a larger rework), which ends up frustrating a ton of players because the rework felt unnecessary. On top of this, you sometimes get pretty obvious knee-jerk reworks like Janna's recent changes, or Kassadin's rework right after he had a 90% ban rate, which tend to be extremely superficial, yet somehow still damaging to the champion's gameplay. Effectively, at least some part of the community feels like Riot has been a bit too trigger-happy in the past when it came to drastically changing the gameplay of certain champions, including in ways that didn't need to happen, which is why they're less willing to see champion updates in the future.

To be fair, though, we as players view the game through a very different lens from Riot, and often our own opinion is biased because of a champion or particular playstyle we love, even if that is the very thing that is unhealthy. For example, a small contingent of players were upset at the Sion rework, not so much because of anything in his new kit, but because they genuinely enjoyed playing the old AP Sion with the point-and-click stun + nuke and massively damaging shield, which was one of the least interactive playstyles in the game. The same thing happened with Poppy's rework, when a few players disliked the removal of Diplomatic Immunity, arguably one of the worst-designed abilities in the game. Most players tend to be protective of the champion they love (which is understandable, and a good thing for the most part), but some tend to take that to a different degree and categorically refuse anything but pure buffs to their champion no matter what, which you can sometimes see on Gameplay when Ahri gets brought up. Effectively, while Riot has not always been reasonable in how they've reworked champions in the past, many players aren't really reasonable with how they expect Riot to balance or design their game, so in many cases it's a matter of looking at the context and the reasons being put forth for changing a champion, or leaving them in their current state.