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Just Another Karma Rework to Show How Much Potential

TNHA Baritone··12 votes·1,980 views

**Hey guys! It's KarmaCatchesUp2U and first of all, I want to thank you for stopping by the post and I would greatly appreciate it if you could upvote if you like it and leave comments below with constructive feedback. While I have over a thousand games on Karma, I can ensure you that I am not perfect so your feedback is crucial. My goal is to rework Karma and give her more direction rather than general abilities. I want players to pick Karma and have known what they're going to do in game. I think League of Legends already has a much better generalist enchanter, Nami, so I don't think Karma should remain untouched with a much less effective kit. I want to transform her into League’s utility-belt, something for ever situation. You might be asking, “how is that different from a generalist?” This explanation might not make much sense, but, I feel like a generalist, has a bit of everything (Nami has poke, heal, cc, damage amps, hastes, slows, etc) but she isn’t the best in each of those categories. With a…(I love the term) “utility-belt” I feel like you’re a lot more unique in what you do, even if it seems like an all-arounder. I want to keep her able to function as a solo laner (which would be her primary role still) AND as a supportive partner in a duo lane. However, I will have to tinker (NOT REMOVE) with Karma's ability to function as a tank (RIP % missing health heals, but I do introduce something else). I want to make it EVIDENT that in NO WAY am I trying to ignore the Tank Karma fan-base. I will try my best to keep the interests of all Karma players at hand. She (in some way) loses her engage speed boost, but has a much easier time reacting to when an enemy engages upon her team. Once again, constructive and logical feedback will obviously result in improvements. The purpose of this, isn’t for Riot to 100% adapt this or even adapt this in the slightest, it’s just a pointer to what could be done with Karma so while you may not even like this, I’d love it if this could get a Rioter’s attention. PLEASE READ THE COMMENTARY SECTION so you can understand my thought process. Without further ado, I present to you: my Karma rework. **

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Karma_0.jpg

#Passive - Indomitable Will Karma’s abilities gain up to 10 - 25% increased effectiveness (based on level) when the number of enemies in her vicinity range is greater than the number of allies.

Commentary: I always loved how Karma's old passive was thematically sound but I didn't think it was anything more than a random stat-buff. While Karma benefits from ability power, we all know that ability power without magic penetration isn't a good idea. With this iteration, I hope that this will help promote the risqué poke-style that Karma currently possesses even when she’s outnumbered. As for the exact range, I’m rather unsure about it, so I might have to change that. While you might be saying, "This passive is useless in a 5v5" but if you pick Karma will notable split-pushers like Udyr or Master Yi, she can sorta fill their presence while you stall

#Q - Inner Flame / Soulflare - Range: 975 / 1050 | Cost: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 Mana | Cooldown: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 ACTIVE: Karma fires a burst of energy that detonates upon hitting an enemy, dealing 70 / 80 / 115 / 160 / 200 / 245 (+ 50% AP) magic damage to all nearby enemies. If Inner Flame (or Soulflare) hits a champion, it grants Karma and any nearby allies, 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% bonus movement speed for 2 seconds. This bonus is halved if Inner Flame hits a champion within the next 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds.

MANTRA BONUS: Inner Flame deals 25 / 75 / 125 / 175 (+ 30% AP) bonus magic damage and leaves an area of effect that when detonates after 1.5 seconds, reduces the enemies' magic resist by 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% (at respective Mantra levels) for 5 seconds and deals 16.66 / 50 / 83.33 / 116.66 (+ 21.66% AP) magic damage to all enemies inside every second for 3 seconds. If Soulflare does not strike a target, the area is created at maximum range.

** Commentary: I knew that I wanted to keep the concept of Q pretty much the same, a linear skill-shot that deals damage however, I wanted to add some more utility other than just a slow that rewards Karma for continuously poking. So I thought of the inverse of a slow. Now for the DOT, I think that because it IS a fire, more specifically a flare, there should be a DOT so there’s not too much burst and utility. Now for the DOT, I think that because it IS a fire, more specifically a flare, there should be a DOT so there’s not too much burst and utility.**

#W - Focused Resolve / Renewal - Range: 675 – 1000 (min - max) | Cost: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 | Cooldown: 14 / 13.5 / 13 / 12.5 / 12 ACTIVE: Karma forms a tether between an enemy champion, neutral monster for two seconds dealing 60 / 110 / 160 / 230 / 280 (+ 60% AP) magic damage over 2 seconds at .66 second intervals. If the tether is unbroken after 2 seconds, the target is rooted for 1.5 seconds.

MANTRA BONUS: Karma forms a tether between an enemy champion or neutral monster. Karma and any nearby allies are healed for 12 / 13 / 14 / 15 (+ 1% per 100 AP) of the damage dealt to the tethered enemy.

_ Karma’s Mantra’d W will need different particle effects as SilverSquid pointed out to me. _

** Commentary: Going to be honest here, I’m unsure if this was the right direction. I think this might actually need changing but I’m just going to put it out to see if I’m self-doubting myself. I want Karma to be utilitarian, in an offensive and defensive aspect that isn’t necessarily just crowd-controls. The reason why I’m taking out the extended duration CC is because being an enchanter, Karma should focus on more amplifying her allies’ effectiveness by directly augmenting them and defending them from incoming threats. I’m probably going to have to redo this part of her kit so don’t judge my intelligence based on this part of the kit.**

#E - Inspire / Defiance - Range: 650 | Cost: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 Mana | Cooldown: 10 / 9.5 / 9 / 8.5 / 8 ACTIVE: Karma shields a target ally or herself from 70 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 250 (+ 15% of the targets missing health; caps at 500) for 3 seconds.

MANTRA BONUS: Karma shields a target ally or herself. The excess energy overflows in an area of effect that bombards all enemies in a 600 range of Karma’s target, dealing 60 / 140 / 250 / 300 (+60% AP) magic damage.

**Commentary: Now I know I got my fellow readers shocked. Don’t dart to the comment section and tell me all about how this is OP/UP because I have done the math in several situations. It reinforces once again, if you mess with Karma or her friends, she will have a response. The shield itself is rather weak if you use it on someone who is not missing a lot of health. Because I know this will be used on tanks to make them super tanks but the ratio-restriction prevents that. However, it does leave wiggle room for those who like Tank Karma. You have to use it wisely for the best effect. For example: if your ADC has 300 / 2000 health, you’ll shield them for a total of 505. However, if your ADC has 1500 / 2000, you will shield them for a rather normal 325. **

#R – Mantra – Range: N/A | Cost: None | Cooldown: 50 / 45 / 40 / 35 PASSIVE: Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2 / 2.5 / 3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with a non-damage over time ability, halved to 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 seconds on basic attacks or damage over time spells.

ACTIVE: Karma empowers her next basic ability within 8 seconds, placing it on the same cooldown as its basic form upon cast. Karma begins with one rank in Mantra and can increase it at levels 6, 11, and 16. Ranks in Mantra improve the additional effects of empowered abilities.

Commentary: I moved her current passive to her ultimate because it only affects her ultimate and other champions have passives for their ultimate. I believe that Riot originally planned it to be this way but could not think of a good passive or simply did not want to add one for whatever reason. I did slightly nerf her the Mantra passive because it could be quite overwhelming for the enemy team.

48 Comments

Nekusen6 votes

why rework her? i use her and like how she is

TNHA Baritone5 votes

Read this

and this.

Karma is not fine, Riot band-aid buffed her but that is not what we (Karma mains) want.

Nekusen6 votes

{quoted}

Read this

and this.

Karma is not fine, Riot band-aid buffed her but that is not what we (Karma mains) want.

I use Karma, and i don't want that. i like how she is and enjoy playing her. Maybe if you are asking for a rework is because you don't enjoy her, which can be solved by using other champion.

TNHA Baritone5 votes

You havent played Karma more than 5 times in the last 20 games. I don't think you know what's best for a champion that you clearly do not play. Even if I don't know what's the best for her, at least I've played her.

Nekusen5 votes

{quoted}

You havent played Karma once in the last 20 games. I don't think you know what's best for a champion that you clearly do not play. Even if I don't know what's the best for her, at least I've played her.

good bluff, but you cant see my games, in any case, i use karma, either you like it or not.

if you want her changed so much, maybe is because you don't enjoy her.

TNHA Baritone5 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/74c0cd921609d9c029eaddee6b1f4b7b.png

Nekusen5 votes

{quoted}

https://i.gyazo.com/74c0cd921609d9c029eaddee6b1f4b7b.png

good job, now check "karma" and see if i user her or not. should i only use 1 champion? what we know from this conversation is: i enjoy playing karma you don't like playing karma.

p.d.: i've been using those at the end for hextec boxes, also, i played games after those, it seems to be outdated.

TNHA Baritone4 votes

All you told me is that you didn't read either of the posts I linked you to.

Nekusen2 votes

{quoted}

All you told me is that you didn't read either of the posts I linked you to.

all you told me is taht you were being dishonest in your argumentation, liking your posts with random opinions does nothing to what i told you.

SilverSquid3 votes

Karma lacks in thematics, she falls flat in her fantasies, even Meddler admitted she is bland and her abilities don't feel unique.

In terms of balance and game health, she does NOT need a rework. But all the fans of her old identity, who feel betrayed, as well as those who can see the potential behind her kit, are uneasy when thinking about the missed opportunities. And want to highlight them.

Nekusen3 votes

{quoted}

Karma lacks in thematics, she falls flat in her fantasies, even Meddler admitted she is bland and her abilities don't feel unique.

In terms of balance and game health, she does NOT need a rework. But all the fans of her old identity, who feel betrayed, as well as those who can see the potential behind her kit, are uneasy when thinking about the missed opportunities. And want to highlight them.

i like her and don't want her to be ruined by changing her with a rework, the people asking for a rework is because they don't like her, and hence should use other champion instead of ruining her for the ones that like how she is.

{quoted}

Saying "a champion can be powerful, so s/he doesn't need a rework" is missing the point.

In that case Poppy wouldn't have needed a rework, because of her powerful Q and R. Sion wouldn't have needed one, because his AP burst was insane. Taric wouldn't have needed one, because his early game armor was really powerful.

Do you see where I am going with this?

they were reworked because they were unhealthy to the game and nearly impossible to balance with their current kit.

SilverSquid3 votes

i like her and don't want her to be ruined by changing her with a rework

Have you ever considered that things can become better by reworking?

the people asking for a rework is because they don't like her

That's putting it too simple. People don't like what Riot did with her, usually. They dislike either the 3.5 rework or the 5.10 revision. And want her to be adressed properly or reverted. It's not necessarily that they "don't like her". They don't like her current version.

The reason why they keep posting about her in the first place, is because they like her so much they can't let her go.

they were reworked because they were unhealthy to the game and nearly impossible to balance with their current kit.

Not the point. He said Karma is fine because she has a powerful RQ, which is not a good argument.

Nekusen3 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever considered that things can become better by reworking?

have you ever considered the chance they will ruin her with a rework?

That's putting it too simple.

seems a pretty simple thing, people want change when they don't like how things are.

People don't like what Riot did with her

some people don't, some people do. those that don't, don't use her, those that do, use her.

They dislike either the 3.5 rework or the 5.10 revision. And want her to be adressed properly or reverted.

so they want to ruin her to the people that currently user and enjoy her.

IxtaliKing2 votes

seems a pretty simple thing, people want change when they don't like how things are.

A person can like something and still want it improved. I love Karma even now but I know she can be so much more, and I want her to be. Riot have acknowledged she needs changes so eventually she will be changed, maybe they'll ruin her for you maybe they won't.

SilverSquid3 votes

have you ever considered the chance they will ruin her with a rework?

Yes? This is why I try to work with Riot and the community to make sure this doesn't happen. If the community knows what it wants and Riot knows what it wants we are better off. Besides, the way Riot does reworks has improved a lot over the years.

seems a pretty simple thing, people want change when they don't like how things are.

If you are unable to see that things you like could be improved, you have a very simplistic view of the world. The real world isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.

some people don't, some people do. those that don't, don't use her, those that do, use her.

Most Karma fans who complain here on the boards still play her. Again, you are falling for that white-and-black trap.

so they want to ruin her to the people that currently user and enjoy her.

I want to build on both Old and New Karma, take the best of both worlds and add depth and a theme to it. The goal is to make her enjoyable for everyone, not ruin it for one part of the community.

However, if you like her mindless RQ or RE bot behaviour, I DO work for something that might dissapoint you. And so do many others on the boards.

Furor Nexis5 votes

As someone who's laned against Karma a good few times, I can say that she does not need to be reworked. She is quite powerful with her empowered Q since it'll delete anyone's health after it has a couple of levels and maybe 1 item because of the scaling of it.

TNHA Baritone4 votes

Read this

and this.

Karma is not fine, Riot band-aid buffed her but that is not what we (Karma mains) want.

SilverSquid4 votes

Saying "a champion can be powerful, so s/he doesn't need a rework" is missing the point.

In that case Poppy wouldn't have needed a rework, because of her powerful Q and R. Sion wouldn't have needed one, because his AP burst was insane. Taric wouldn't have needed one, because his early game armor was really powerful.

Do you see where I am going with this?

Rico Nasty5 votes

Mastery 6 Karma main, I own all of her skins and have mained her for 2 seasons. She doesn't need a rework. There are so many other champs that are in dire need of it before her.

TNHA Baritone4 votes

I'm going to be quite honest, there's a difference between a lot of champions needing reworks before her, and flat out saying she doesn't need one. I don't want to pull the elitist ranked card either but I think that once exposed to higher levels of play, it's easier to see the flaws of a champion. What most people do not realize is that Karma is playable. Though if you look hard enough she has major problems that Riot didn't solve with the rework and Riot has acknowledged this.

SilverSquid4 votes

Mastery 6 Karma main, I own all of her skins and have mained her for 2 seasons.

Don't you think it's dishonest to boast with your rank but leave out the fact that you have been in bronze 5 for those two seasons? I mean, maybe you know more about Karma than us, but saying "looks fine from bronze" doesn't help anyone, because ADC Velkoz can look fine in bronze.

Please provide some arguments.

Rico Nasty2 votes

Lol the rank card isn't useful any more sweetie. Ranked has been unplayable since the middle of s5, carrying is a myth nowadays. I've been in literally every situation against every champion imaginable as Karma. Don't tell me what I do and don't know. I like her playstyle as it is now, and so do many other Karma mains, don't let Riot ruin it for us.

SilverSquid3 votes

I hear more excuses and boasting, no arguments.

If you like her, that's okay. We do too. But we see more possibilities to her than an overhyped RQ or RE bot. Because some of us have lived through different Karma versions, we enjoyed more. Also, we do NOT want Riot to ruin her, but improve her, as they have done with many champions lately.

Or tell me, Mr. Karma main, what do you say to the 5.10 changes?

Rico Nasty1 votes

Only thing I'd change is giving back the damage on shieldbomb. Other than that I think you guys just want special treatment tbh. The boards is less than 5% of the League community, and Karma mains are even a minority on the boards. We love Karma the way she is.

SilverSquid3 votes

The 3.5 changes were hasty and lacked ressources. Meddler agreed it made for a bland kit with things that everyone had already seen. The 5.10 changes were a disgrace, as they removed her most iconic spell for no good reason.

I love Riot for what they do with the game (well, about 90% of it). But they just don't get it right with Karma. Meddler already hinted at changing her in a future Enchanter update or Ionia event. So there WILL be changes. And smaller changes in the 6.16 patch (the patch after the next one) are nearly certain at this point.

So it's not like we can put our foot down and say "don't change Karma", because it will happen eventually. And for good reasons. It's not because of special treatment, but because of failed thematics and rework approaches. The only thing we should be doing is EXACTLY showing Riot what we love about her and how we could see her changed. So they have something to work with.

I can't handle yet another thematic bellyflop. But maybe you don't care enough about Karma, so you just play her until they change her. Which, I repeat, WILL happen.

Nobody11113 votes

As a person who laned against karma across seasons.... I really don't want shield bombing back. that thing was a nightmare to me ;_; (leona main who kept getting bombed)

TNHA Baritone3 votes

But as Karma support (since you main Leona) it does so little damage as it's early ranks are awful.

SilverSquid2 votes

A support Karma using shieldbomb to poke? That equals a pushed lane and open season for your jungler, as she spends her semi-ulti and mobility spell for offense. If you are talking teamfights; a support Karma shouldn't be able to more than tickle a support Leona at that point.

If I am missing something. let me know.

Nobody11111 votes

{quoted}

A support Karma using shieldbomb to poke? That equals a pushed lane and open season for your jungler, as she spends her semi-ulti and mobility spell for offense. If you are talking teamfights; a support Karma shouldn't be able to more than tickle a support Leona at that point.

If I am missing something. let me know.

old shield bomb was a very painful thing, as a leona main whose purpose was to full in engage, I found myself both getting chunked by the bomb often and suddenly losing some of kill potential due to the shield.

its not relevant to the rework offered here (the scaling and bases suggested are low) but its just me being traumatized by old season 1-2 karma :P

SilverSquid3 votes

Old RE (300+60%AP) doesn't seem so much stronger than a normal Q (260+60%AP).

But it's nice to have a non-Karma player appreciate the old shieldbomb ;)

Nobody11111 votes

{quoted}

Old RQ (300+60%AP) doesn't seem so much stronger than a normal Q (260+60%AP).

But it's nice to have a non-Karma player appreciate the old shieldbomb ;)

Q was the fans, we are talking RE of pre rework karma, the shield bomb of old karma had 80% ap ratio on both shield and damage

SilverSquid1 votes

Ugh, I was talking about 3.5-5.10 Karma Sorry for the confusion.

blfUvZ8Ybu2 votes

Where is Karma rework thread? I didn't see.

Narvuntien1 votes

I have thought about this as well.

Right now she is powerful but no longer thematic.

I would change her thusly.

Basically her mantra is a way to switch her abilities from damaging to aiding.

Q is the same as is. Empowered Q can be fired at allies and creates a small field that gives increased MR and armor to allies. W is the same as is. Empowered W can now be used on allies to siphon health from you to them E will now be a small AoE burst outwards from allied unit empowered E is as it is now because its her signature ability.

I like this because she retains all her strength she currently has, perhaps her base damage might have to go down or her cooldowns up just so she can have his extra utility.

TNHA Baritone2 votes

Thank you for some meaningful feedback.

SilverSquid1 votes

Hi dude. Lemme have a look.

Karma’s abilities gain up to 10 - 25% increased effectiveness

Does this work for damage, shields, speedbuffs, slows and heals? It's very unintuitively phrased, but I don't know if this idea even CAN be intuitively phrased in the first place.

While you might be saying, "This passive is useless in a 5v5" but if you pick Karma will notable split-pushers like Udyr or Master Yi, she can sorta fill their presence while you stall

So you want Karma to change from a teamfighter to a splitpusher? Does this fit her character better?

If Inner Flame (or Soulflare) hits a champion, it grants Karma and any nearby allies, 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% bonus movement speed for 2 seconds.

Second time this week, that I see a MS buff on Q suggested. I don't think 20% is particularly worth it, but at least it's something unique. I just have no idea how this would visually work out tho.

This bonus is halved if Inner Flame hits a champion within the next 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds.

Do you not want Karma to feel good for building CDR? Because with this in mind she would effectively LOSE units when casting Q to kite. Casting Q loses you 0.25s=25% of walking, hitting Q gains you 2s of 10% MS. This means a net loss of 5%MS lost.... if you HIT.

Now for the DOT, I think that because it IS a fire, more specifically a flare, there should be a DOT so there’s not too much burst and utility. Now for the DOT, I think that because it IS a fire, more specifically a flare, there should be a DOT so there’s not too much burst and utility.

I think you accidentally you accidentally a sentence ^^ Also explosions are technically fire (very short and fast fire). So it doesn't HAVE to be a burn effect, even though it very easily could be.

dealing (...) magic damage over 2 seconds at .66 second intervals.

People keep doing this. It currently is 3 damage ticks at 1.0s intervals. I commend you for looking this up in the wiki, but they got it wrong. I would create an account there and correct it, but I know what happens when I create an account on a wiki ._.

Karma and any nearby allies are healed for 12 / 13 / 14 / 15 (+ 1% per 100 AP) of the damage dealt to the tethered enemy.

This is significantly worse than ricklessabandon's version. Because he had the buffed W damage, a damage amp and ally leech.

ACTIVE: Karma shields a target ally or herself from 70 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 250 (+ 15% of the targets missing health; caps at 500) for 3 seconds.

What? Nooooo. No, no, no. I mean, I realize you said you wanted tank Karma to be a thing, but not like this. First of all it makes the shield useless for midlane Karma, without AP scaling and no MS boost. It also indirectly nerfs your W, because your E ensured you could hit it. Additionally, it scales with tank stats AND ITSELF. If you can survive longer you can cast it more often, which makes you survive longer. So there is a point up to where it's just a useless shield because you die anyways and then after that point it's immediately broken, because you can't kill Karma anymore. Even more so, imagine that thing on a 4,4s cooldown. Please, for the love of god, no!

he excess energy overflows in an area of effect that bombards all enemies in a 600 range of Karma’s target,

I don't know if the range is on spot, but.... shieldbomb. Yay. Rito pls.... Even though I wonder; did you remove the AoE shield completely?

I moved her current passive to her ultimate because it only affects her ultimate and other champions have passives for their ultimate.

There is even more reasoning to do this. It's overdue. However, by reducing the CD reduction from DoT abilities, you realiize you nerfed W again, right?

Squid over and out. See you around!

Warden Karma1 votes

Hey Silver jsut wanted to say hi ^^

hi^^

cough cough Also dont know if you would be interested or if you already know... but there is a reddit group /r/Mantraofdecorum you might find interesting cough cough

SilverSquid1 votes

Hi ^^

Yeah, I've seen your post regarding it. I just didn't join it yet for the same reason I didn't make a new Karma post for a while. I am still fighting some health problems that allow me to only write short things at once. I am well enough to write a few comments every few days, but not enough to write a whole post, care for it or discuss about stuff for hours.

It's good to know you are doing some work, tho.

Warden Karma1 votes

Aww still? :(

Hope you get better soon

http://s32.postimg.org/f35w6xmsh/Karma_Needs_You.jpg

(P.S.: I made that one just for you ;) )

Also noone expects you to write super huge things there; but i would be glad to welcome you there. I am little... concerned since only so little interest is shown, while I believe that we could be so much more.

Anyway, get well and feel always welcome in the Decorum :)

SilverSquid2 votes

I will join it eventually, I think. But for now, send them my regards, and a challenge;

If you have seen my last and best received rework, you might have noticed a similarity with her W and Zenyatta's orbs. Zenyatta the monk from the Overwatch franchise. Both feature point-and-click damage enhancment or reduction. This is no coincidence; Zenyatta plays as an offensive support hero that can not only provide you allies with help, but also packs a punch. Those were things I wanted for my Karma rendition and ended up using them.... but as League is a different game I had to adapt them slightly.

However, after further inspection and the rise of Karma's (expected) identity as a Battlemage/Enchanter, I felt displeased with this approach. Karma has too much range, and so does Zenyatta. I realized that Zarya is probably closer to what I want to achieve; a close ranged supportive off-tank. She protects her allies and gets rewards for doing so, dealing more damage in the process. In a way she does better on the karma identity, than Karma herself. In the end, she punishes those who try to hurt her and her allies.

So I wanted to ask you, my dear decorum forum; how would you go about a Zarya themed rework? How would you go about merging Zarya into Karma's kit to make it a thing in LoL? Do you feel inspired by Zaryas kit and would you like to adopt something? Creating a kit and then pointing out why it wouldn't work in League is allowed to. I am curious about what you can come up with!

TNHA Baritone2 votes

  1. Squid :( Get better my friend. This puts my heart in at ache.

  2. I had typed this response out twice and hit delete but it went back to the last page....I'm a failiure.

Does this work for damage, shields, speedbuffs, slows and heals? It's very unintuitively phrased, but I don't know if this idea even CAN be intuitively phrased in the first place.

My first versions of it just said "shields and damage" but I didn't think that sounded good or would've been good either. I agree, poorly worded.

So you want Karma to change from a teamfighter to a splitpusher? Does this fit her character better?

No. I think you misunderstood. She isn't doing the split-pushing, it's when an ally is, she becomes stronger while she stalls out with her team.

Second time this week, that I see a MS buff on Q suggested. I don't think 20% is particularly worth it, but at least it's something unique. I just have no idea how this would visually work out tho.

Very few things that I imagine on Karma, I visually cannot see it.

Do you not want Karma to feel good for building CDR? Because with this in mind she would effectively LOSE units when casting Q to kite. Casting Q loses you 0.25s=25% of walking, hitting Q gains you 2s of 10% MS. This means a net loss of 5%MS lost.... if you HIT.

My problem here is that I wasn't thinking about kiting (which is bad because this is core), I was thinking about all the ways that Karma could abuse this for a massive and prolonged engage.

People keep doing this. It currently is 3 damage ticks at 1.0s intervals. I commend you for looking this up in the wiki, but they got it wrong. I would create an account there and correct it, but I know what happens when I create an account on a wiki ._.

I feel like I can't trust wiki anymore. I have been burned.

This is significantly worse than ricklessabandon's version. Because he had the buffed W damage, a damage amp and ally leech.

In my earlier renditions of W, it had an On enemy and an on ally cast for both regular and Mantra. I had each part of those in it, but it felt like it was too...overloaded.

What? Nooooo. No, no, no. I mean, I realize you said you wanted tank Karma to be a thing, but not like this. First of all it makes the shield useless for midlane Karma, without AP scaling and no MS boost. It also indirectly nerfs your W, because your E ensured you could hit it. Additionally, it scales with tank stats AND ITSELF. If you can survive longer you can cast it more often, which makes you survive longer. So there is a point up to where it's just a useless shield because you die anyways and then after that point it's immediately broken, because you can't kill Karma anymore. Even more so, imagine that thing on a 4,4s cooldown. Please, for the love of god, no!

LOOOOOOOOOOL yeah I was thinking about adding an AP ratio but I...I guess I restrict myself to thinking about only how things can be abused rather than how things can be used. Also, I thought so hard about a unique-er E, that once I found something, I just stopped looking, or even analyzing whether it was a good choice or not.

I don't know if the range is on spot, but.... shieldbomb. Yay. Rito pls.... Even though I wonder; did you remove the AoE shield completely?

Yeah, though I played Karma a bit (everyday I do) and i had a lot of run, then I realized...hmm maybe I should keep the AoE.

There is even more reasoning to do this. It's overdue. However, by reducing the CD reduction from DoT abilities, you realiize you nerfed W again, right?

Once again, poor wording. I wanted it to affect only the DOT on Q. Which I don't think I can say "one not the other".

Thanks Squid, I always look forward to your comments because it shows that you actually went through and read it. It truly does make me think harder. Remember when I suggested a 40% (which really was 80) missing health heal in AOE on my first rework ever? LOL You were there to tell me enlighten me. I am grateful <3

SilverSquid3 votes

I had typed this response out twice and hit delete but it went back to the last page....I'm a failiure.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqe6rqBaet1qafrh6.gif

I just made a habit of pressing ctrl+a, ctrl+c every now and then. Keeps on saving my day :)

No. I think you misunderstood. She isn't doing the split-pushing, it's when an ally is, she becomes stronger while she stalls out with her team.

I did. Lol, I am stupid. Makes a lot more sense that way. Might even work as a reason to pick her. Even though it kind of contradicts her poke nature....

I feel like I can't trust wiki anymore. I have been burned.

The trick is to not trust anyone 100%. Everyone can fail. Even the knowledge nerds on the wiki. And me^^. Trust is not an on-or-off thing. Trust things and people gradually.

In my earlier renditions of W, it had an On enemy and an on ally cast for both regular and Mantra. I had each part of those in it, but it felt like it was too...overloaded.

W tends to do that. In most of my renditions it ended up being overloaded. But as a bridge spell, with old and new function, damage spell, CC, ally/enemy function and mantra addition, there is just no way this can be made easy. That's why I completely scrapped it in my last rework, for example.

Once again, poor wording. I wanted it to affect only the DOT on Q. Which I don't think I can say "one not the other".

Have you thought about capping the CD refund per spell? It might not be elegant, but it sometimes does the trick.

Thanks Squid, I always look forward to your comments because it shows that you actually went through and read it. It truly does make me think harder. Remember when I suggested a 40% (which really was 80) missing health heal in AOE on my first rework ever? LOL You were there to tell me enlighten me. I am grateful <3

If it helps you, the community or karma to progress, I couldn't be happier.

Warden Karma1 votes

Hey there,

before I start i want to highlight for people saying she does not need a rework that I (and most others who post Karma Reworks) do NOT think she is weak; its rather because of her not so well delivered theme/Identity ingame (Like Trinity instead of Duality) and some things in her kit that could be done better (like the super root of her W). Of course we know that Karma's Playerbase/Fanbase is very... "split", so its very hard to come to a good solution. Karma is not a super priority, but it has been foreshaowed by Riot that in 1-2 years (or more) she will get looked on. She is even now being looked at because she is everywhere in the LCS simply because she was overbuffed, which shows that Karma might have a problematic kit (when numbers are high she is surpressing when they are low she is "useless"; just a with old Karma.)

Karma’s abilities gain up to 10 - 25% increased effectiveness (based on level) when the number of enemies in her vicinity range is greater than the number of allies.

Wow. I had the same Idea long ago XD I really really like the Idea of getting a Bonus when outnumbered (hey Irelia) it fits so much to her Resilience, but I ultimately decided that its problematic gameplaytecnically; as it is quite "random" and "suddenly" when Karma gets a boost, simply by players walking around (especially in a team fight) (I remember also having a discussion about it with Silver: we played around with ideas like if your team has less % Hp you gain boni etc.). So Identitywise: 1+ Gameplaywise: not so optimal

ACTIVE: Karma fires a burst of energy that detonates upon hitting an enemy, dealing 70 / 80 / 115 / 160 / 200 / 245 (+ 50% AP) magic damage to all nearby enemies. If Inner Flame (or Soulflare) hits a champion, it grants Karma and any nearby allies, 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% bonus movement speed for 2 seconds. This bonus is halved if Inner Flame hits a champion within the next 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 seconds. MANTRA BONUS: Inner Flame deals 25 / 75 / 125 / 175 (+ 30% AP) bonus magic damage and leaves an area of effect that when detonates after 1.5 seconds, reduces the enemies' magic resist by 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% (at respective Mantra levels) for 5 seconds and deals 16.66 / 50 / 83.33 / 116.66 (+ 21.66% AP) magic damage to all enemies inside every second for 3 seconds. If Soulflare does not strike a target, the area is created at maximum range.

So you removed the slow and moved the speed up from e to q? I tryed the same thing long ago (ugh thats getting old sorry for that -.-). First thing: I know her theme is Dualitiy but adding a "follower" MS on her R/Q is not optimal. Its "not intiutive" having an MS on a DMG skillshot; but the most important thing for me back then was: Its actually better on her E. Why? Simple, you can speed up your allies without condition (hitting enemy champion) and faster (casting Q taskes time).

The Fire Dot is a nice Idea;So if you got hit by Cataclysm, you will burn? or only if you continue to stand in the effect?

ACTIVE: Karma forms a tether between an enemy champion, neutral monster for two seconds dealing 60 / 110 / 160 / 230 / 280 (+ 60% AP) magic damage over 2 seconds at .66 second intervals. If the tether is unbroken after 2 seconds, the target is rooted for 1.5 seconds.

Normalized snare duration is something one can consider (early is better but late is worse); so i am rather abstain on that.

MANTRA BONUS: Karma forms a tether between an enemy champion or neutral monster. Karma and any nearby allies are healed for 12 / 13 / 14 / 15 (+ 1% per 100 AP) of the damage dealt to the tethered enemy.

I believe this were on PBE for a short time but Riot took it out after receiving lots of negative feedback. It wouldnt work so good on solo lane Karma (because you cant RQ do deal damage); maybe it would be great for taking dragon/Baron. I am not sure if its great in Teamfights too since your damage dealer have to attack your "marked" one (which is not so problematic), but why would you cast RW over RQ or RE?

ACTIVE: Karma shields a target ally or herself from 70 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 250 (+ 15% of the targets missing health; caps at 500) for 3 seconds. MANTRA BONUS: Karma shields a target ally or herself. The excess energy overflows in an area of effect that bombards all enemies in a 600 range of > Karma’s target, dealing 60 / 140 / 250 / 300 (+60% AP) magic damage.

I wouldnt say this is OP, but i would argue its a little blank compared to RQ. RQ gives me: DMG AOE MR reduction AOE DOT damage

RE: Aoe Damage

Not sure about those.

PASSIVE: Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2 / 2.5 / 3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with a non-damage over time ability, halved to 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 seconds on basic attacks or damage over time spells.

I guess most will agree if Karma gets a new Passive, her current one should be moved (nerfed) to her R (otherwise R would be useless.... well or give 2 Mantras at level 6^^).

Well, dont feel discouraged or so: I like some Ideas, some needs work I think.^^ (I am also more the critical viewer, so dont let it get you down! And especially not by the ones saying here Karma does not need a rework.)

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Wow. I had the same Idea long ago XD I really really like the Idea of getting a Bonus when outnumbered (hey Irelia) it fits so much to her Resilience, but I ultimately decided that its problematic gameplaytecnically; as it is quite "random" and "suddenly" when Karma gets a boost, simply by players walking around (especially in a team fight) (I remember also having a discussion about it with Silver: we played around with ideas like if your team has less % Hp you gain boni etc.). So Identitywise: 1+ Gameplaywise: not so optimal

Yeah and Riot does great jobs typing passives especially to the identity and gameplay so I tried to do it, but it's appearant that I focused more on identity.

So you removed the slow and moved the speed up from e to q? I tryed the same thing long ago (ugh thats getting old sorry for that -.-). First thing: I know her theme is Dualitiy but adding a "follower" MS on her R/Q is not optimal. Its "not intiutive" having an MS on a DMG skillshot; but the most important thing for me back then was: Its actually better on her E. Why? Simple, you can speed up your allies without condition (hitting enemy champion) and faster (casting Q taskes time).

The Fire Dot is a nice Idea;So if you got hit by Cataclysm, you will burn? or only if you continue to stand in the effect?

Yeah, I think I kept looking for unique additions and said "OH COOL!" rather than thinking about it. Once again, I really think my game-play aspects of reworks lacks heavily. As for the DOT, It would be if you stood in the effect, but how could you stand in the effect if you cant slow them.

I believe this were on PBE for a short time but Riot took it out after receiving lots of negative feedback. It wouldnt work so good on solo lane Karma (because you cant RQ do deal damage); maybe it would be great for taking dragon/Baron. I am not sure if its great in Teamfights too since your damage dealer have to attack your "marked" one (which is not so problematic), but why would you cast RW over RQ or RE?

Supportive Karma would probably rather cast it in every situation, which isn't what I want. I want every single playstyle of Karma to use all of her spells near-equally not because one is always better. So yeah...I fucked up again XD.

I wouldnt say this is OP, but i would argue its a little blank compared to RQ. RQ gives me: DMG AOE MR reduction AoE DOT damage

RE: Aoe Damage

Not sure about those.

Yeah I tried to focus on not completley trashing RQ, rather than making the other better.

I guess most will agree if Karma gets a new Passive, her current one should be moved (nerfed) to her R (otherwise R would be useless.... well or give 2 Mantras at level 6^^).

Well, dont feel discouraged or so: I like some Ideas, some needs work I think.^^ (I am also more the critical viewer, so dont let it get you down! And especially not by the ones saying here Karma does not need a rework.)

I LOVE this kind of feedback Lol It makes me a better thinker and rework-er. I'll probably be back at it again with mistakes next week Lol. Ty bb <3

rootScythe1 votes

Interesting ideas in how to improve her thematically.

Q: It shouldn't just be "giving away" movement speed for landing a safe skill shot, but otherwise, I'm not entirely sure how to balance out her Q.

W: Normal W would do exactly as you stated. Mantra'd W I think could be interesting by increasing the cast range, but instead of using it between her and an enemy, it could be used between 2 enemies or an enemy and a ward, enemy and a turret, an enemy and a character summoned object (heimer turret, zyra plant, illaoi tentacle). Literally tethering them with a ball and chain, and if 2 enemies are chained, they have ~3 seconds to walk away from each other or they'll get snared. This idea forces the opponents to either be snared where they stand, or to seperate themselves and potentially let 1 of them get picked off as a sacrificial lamb, forcing the opponents to cooperate.

E: The missing health heal sounds cool but that definitely sounds more of a mantra'd "enlightened" ability instead of something she can use every 6 seconds. Her standard shield should just be a shield, and if anything, an enhancement on either their next auto attack (more dmg or slowing whoever they auto (like Darius' crippling strike), or just how it is with a small movement speed boost for initiation.

R: Moving her passive to her ultimate is perfectly fine.

Passive: Not a clue if that'd be good or not xD. It really does sound alot like Irelia's and Wukong's so idk if its the right direction to go to preserve Karma's Uniqueness.

jocomotion1 votes

This post may be a bit old, but as a fellow karma main, I'd like to give some feedback, because I think that now Karma does need a small rework, nothing too major, but something to help her find her own unique place rather than be the "general support champion" she fell to now.

Passive/Ult: I love the idea of moving her current passive as a passive to her ultimate, It just makes more sense, as for the passive you suggested, it has some positives and negatives, on the positive side, It does an excellent job of fulfilling karma's gameplay fantasy both lore wise and idea wise. She even's out the odds, and despite wanting peace, is always ready to fight. However like you yourself stated, this is a bit tricky when it comes to effectiveness. Something like this would be more effective on a support champion thats COMPLETELY dedicated to healing and shielding rather than a support like karma who does some shielding and some fighting at the same time.

Q- I absolutely love the idea of karma's soulflare, having the damage tick rather than be a flat out burst is a really cool idea, and makes karma even more of a battle mage who fights mid range rather than far away, the magic pen is a fair idea, but because karma is a supportive champ how about some kind of resistance shred of armor and mr so anyone caught in the flames takes damage from karma's allies, AP or AD. The only thing I don't agree with the the extra move-speed, and that's for two reasons. One, it'd make Q and RQ WAY overloaded, a slow and a speed boost in a single ability on a ranged champ is just too much.

W- I do agree that Karma's W should be a better benefit to her allies, and I like the idea you're going with healing her allies but the execution leaves some questions. However you stated that you yourself where unsure so I won't dwell on it.

E- Some love and hate here. I do miss old shield-damage karma, it was very unique to her old kit and her old new kit, and I still am unsure why riot got rid of it. So kudos to bringing that back. However, every mage support should have their shields give an extra effect, one that makes them unique, this sounds like karma just has a bigger shield than the others but doesn't give any other benefits. Lulu-on hit damage; Janna-AD; Sona- heal; Taric- armor. I like that Karma's E gives movespeed but it does need more utility

I'd apreciate it if you gave some feed back on some of my ideas too here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/p3XmvjE4-karmas-balancing

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