I like champions without minigames.

BluePolarizer··64 votes·4,436 views

Please don't turn Vel'Koz into a champ where you have to do handstand pushups like Garen while singing Taylor Swift to even autoattack. There are other ways of unique yet simple kits that don't just revolve around numbers and CC. In particular, the use of high damage channeled ults (Katarina Fiddlesticks Velkoz Nunu Karthus ) was always underexplored and Vel'Koz was a very interesting take on this model.

For example, terrain creation, fields that help/hinder allies/enemies, global effects that affect both teams as a double edged sword (such as, if Ekko was to be reworked, that his ult also applies a global MS and AS slow to everyone including minions and monsters for a few seconds to mimic him seeing everything in slow motion), etc. are all ways of adding counterplay and unique mechanics without resorting to minigames.

69 Comments

LANWhale11 votes

I'm starting to get the feeling people don't understand what Riot is trying to do to Vel'Koz.

They agree that Vel'koz is healthy, has a kit that is really obvious and doesn't need any major changes like a mini game. What they do want to do is something along the lines of Caitlyn changes, were rather of removing or changing his kit and play style they want to enhance it.

I understand completely why people are worried about this rework thing with Vel'koz for int he past Riot hasn't been exactly good at them.

Evenstar3 votes

I don't think anyone wants him to be changed for the simple fact that there's really no where else in VK's kit that would make him anymore unique than he is now. Riot's movement to the fans basically seems like they're intentionally finding holes to dig.

LANWhale4 votes

They them selves have said that they plan no major rework for Vel. In fact they would be shocked that people actually call it a rework rather than a change you see on the patch notes.

My opinion on them working on Vel'koz is actually a good thing. While yes his kit is balanced and has an obvious play style he suffers from the same fault that Brand has. You only play Brand when hes really strong, is your main or as a support.

Evenstar3 votes

It's not about how huge the rework will be really, more like no one wants them to touch Vel Koz. Certain mages like Brand and Vel Koz will always fall out of favor with the current meta, since half of the mid lane goers all have some type of mobility, such niche mages wouldn't find themselves competitive in said lane anymore. And instead of going around to update something that's not broken and perceived as balanced and healthy 100%, it's better if Riot started with changes that would guarantee immobile mages in mid lane again, such as masteries, item changes and rune, all of which they sort of screwed up.

Unfortunately, that's how the current balance team rolls and it's sad. The keyword is no one wants them to touch him, not that whether VK is in need of anything special.

LANWhale2 votes

Sure no one wants Riot to touch Vel'koz in fear of another train wreck of a rework. Which is why people are quaking in there boots when they mentioned hes on the list. Just because a champion is being looked at for some improvements doesn't mean they believe the champion is in a bad state but because its needed.

Or at least that's what I see.

If a champion is left in their state since release with no changes or shifts in power they get left behind like Warwick and pre-reworked Sion. Does it mean he needs to be full blown, shiny neon lights new? No but small things to keep him feeling fresh.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Ooo, there's an idea though, Neon Vel'Koz. Make him look like he's at a rave party and make his abilities give off rainbow colors.

Bondage Bunnyboy2 votes

{quoted}

Ooo, there's an idea though, Neon Vel'Koz. Make him look like he's at a rave party and make his abilities give off rainbow colors.

Oh, you're the Vel'Koz that I faced in that ranked game as Lulu.

I still want that tentacle.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

You may have crushed our nexus but you can never crush my heart.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Thanks again for that by the way. I may have gotten reported for it (Even though it wasn't my fault Shyvana nuked our team) but I haven't had that much fun in a game in a long time.

Z Statistic2 votes

Except literally since his release, Riot has had regret that Q is less of an gameplay thing than W. You don't harass with the unique skillshot; you W the wave because you always have the mana, and it produces more pressure. It even makes it easier to hit your Q. The only people who maxed Q first were the first adopters. Maxing W is almost always the way to go.

The goal, as Riot has stated, is to lessen the focus on gameplay off of his W and put it more on his Q, E, and R, but primarily on his Q. One example would be to increase the damage by 25%, remove the first instance of damage, and cause the delayed instance to apply TWO stacks of his passive so that a single Q or E would do it.

Ulquiorra9952 votes

Name me ONE midlane mage with a reliable source of waveclear who doesn't max it first, and I'll admit that Vel maxing W is a problem. Hell, even Leblanc, who is an assassin - a role designed to burst a single target, still prioritizes maxing her AoE over single target damage,

Z Statistic2 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Anivia

I'd list more, but you did say only one.

Sauceyapples2 votes

He said reliable, anivia's Q isn't reliable early, xD Also, the only reliable source of waveclear is anivia's ult. So... yeah.

Z Statistic2 votes

?

Do minions juke your skillshots 90% of the time? That's like saying Ori's Q isn't reliable waveclear. But if you're dead set on "reliable" waveclear that doesn't even require any practice...

http://champion.gg/champion/Annie/Middle http://champion.gg/champion/Malzahar http://champion.gg/champion/Veigar

Veigar is particularly important as his waveclear doesn't impose on his fantasy like it does Vel'koz.

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

Wait Veigar has waveclear?

Sauceyapples2 votes

Uhhh... W+ Q? those are two very reliable cd's in veigars pockets to clear waves pretty easily.

Sauceyapples1 votes

Nah, I just meant as in it has a really long CD to be considered reliable waveclear, and really doesn't do that much damage, especially early on, vs your example of orianna, her ball is more mobile and has less of a cd than anivia's snowball. That's all I meant. I just don't consider it necessarily RELIABLE as much as I consider it just a way of doing damage to HELP waveclear. That's all I meant.

Ulquiorra9951 votes

Still, why does Vel'Koz need to have a specific niche? He is already fairly unique even from other AoE mages in the way he builds and deals damage; rather than a large burst he relies on cooldowns/MPEN to dish out constant, target-neutral damage.

Andif they consider "not having a niche" a problem, why don't they look at champions who suffer from exact the opposite? If "looking at enemy team and saying: Vel is a perfect pick for this situation" not being a thing is a problem, then why is "looking at enemy team and saying: Lee or Thresh are NOT a good pick in this situation" not being at thing isn't considered a problem?

Silents4291 votes

I want to say I still don't quite know why people are still complaining about this, On at least several threads about Vel Koz they have addressed concerns and explained the perspective and idea they have going for his changes, but we still get these dumb threads show up. The more pop up the more I wonder if they see "Vel Koz rework" and then pop into alert mode before actually reading abut anything.

I mean seriously a mini game added? Nothing they have said, even on the announcement post could possibly hint at something like this occurring with how much they have been trying to explain they think his kit is fine.

The Deckowner10 votes

i hate mini games. fiora's mini game is just all luck, i had games where vitals keep showing right in the same spot right at my face i just keep aa without need of positiob. kindred's mini game is just hide and chase. ekko's minigames need ur enemy to be stupid to actually be effective,skills doesnt help. skarner's minigame is meaningless, no one give a shit about it. plz no more minigames, i just wanna play a simple game.

Orangesilk2 votes

You see, with the exception of Skarner and his little Dominion (no one likes Dominion, not even mini-dominion) these champions have had kits that are extremely well received by the community, and really loved.

Vel'Koz on the other hand is barely even known, and has little to show for his kit.

IS3E531E3F9643914 votes

{quoted}

You see, with the exception of Skarner and his little Dominion (no one likes Dominion, not even mini-dominion) these champions have had kits that are extremely well received by the community, and really loved.

Vel'Koz on the other hand is barely even known, and has little to show for his kit.

you forgot, though, that as soon as a champion is slated for a rework 90% of the playerbase becomes the main of said champion

Melledoneus6 votes

Or, you know, if it's not a stretch, the mains were there the whole time but decided to speak up about it now...?

cuddlykitten41 votes

Not me lol, once I know their fate is sealed I don't play them anymore. No sense in riding a dying horse into town. Just wait for a new horse and train it instead. Less likely you'll get stranded that way.

fractalfantasies2 votes

This is why I hope Riot doesn't take anything said here too seriously.

This board hates the stuff myself and most people like, Lee Sin, Vayne, Thresh, Zed etc and worships the boring stuff, tanks, immobile mages, cinderhulk meta etc.

Sahn Uzal3 votes

Yes yes, because your opinion is the law of what is boring and what is not eh? summoner 31

fractalfantasies1 votes

Not exactly.

My opinions are probably however much more representative of a typical LoL player than the salty kids on this website.

Lots of people like the fun champs like Lee Sin, Zed, Vayne, Riven, Thresh etc and as such Riot should take into account the fact that those who are most unhappy, are the most vocal and not mistakenly believe that their general direction is wrong when generally speaking, most people who play this game (myself included), think Riot are doing a great job of keeping things fresh and fun.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Except for the fact that a lot of people like immobile mages, I know a bunch of people how like tanks. I actually think it is safe to say the majority of LoL players hate Lee Sin, Vayne, Thresh and Zed. I also think Riot does a good job in keeping the game fun. But stating people like those champs and think immobile mages and tanks are boring has some flawed logic in it. summoner 31

Wordse1 votes

Wide reaching statement.

Like is it cool if I say:

Everyone hates Lee SIn, Vayne, Thresh, Zed and ect. And there is a small group that seems to dislike the popular fun stuff like tanks, immobile mages, and cinderhulk meta. I don't know if just applying personal opinion like calling things boring is very fair. Just as many people could consider Bursty/Snowbally dominators + Thresh boring.

But I do personally like mingame champs anything to not have to get mechanically better at the game if I can still suck I'll be happy.

Wordse2 votes

Wide reaching statement.

Like is it cool if I say:

Everyone hates Lee SIn, Vayne, Thresh, Zed and ect. And there is a small group that seems to dislike the popular fun stuff like tanks, immobile mages, and cinderhulk meta. I don't know if just applying personal opinion like calling things boring is very fair. Just as many people could consider Bursty/Snowbally dominators + Thresh boring.

But I do personally like mingame champs anything to not have to get mechanically better at the game if I can still suck I'll be happy.

fractalfantasies1 votes

I have evidence from winrates and ban rates that many people love the flashy pics and most people don't consider them banworthy.

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

I would like to see that "evidence".

cuddlykitten41 votes

I like Dominion

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

Look mommy a rare species

FrickendaChicken19 votes

Ekko's minigame? He requires planning 3-4 seconds ahead to be able to do anything. He needs to keep a constant knowledge of the ranges of his abilities on top of the delays. He doesn't have a minigame, he has 2 very long delays in a game where miliseconds matter. His ult can zone, his W can zone. These are mechanics, not minigames.

Wimbledofy3 votes

He's probably never played ekko before, that's why he thinks it is a minigame.

HeadHonchkrow2 votes

But he has, look at his match history

Wimbledofy1 votes

shh just pretend he's never played ekko before.

HeadHonchkrow1 votes

But I agree with him

Shrek Luigi1 votes

Channel your inner Keanu Reeves and predict where they will move. Works everytime--anything is possible in the digital world.

The Deckowner1 votes

something that is critical in a champion's kit and is uncontrollable such as fiora's vital bard's chime and ekko's shadow are minigames.

AquariusGine8 votes

Cassiopeia Most unsatisfying mini game in LoL

Old Man Teeto2 votes

Barely count her passive as a mini-game, just really poorly gated steroids.

Old Man Teeto6 votes

Draven = Great minigame, rewarding on both sides to play around it, but primarily is focused on the player itself, not tedious. Bard = Fantastic minigame, promotes using his highly mobile roam centric kit while giving tangible scaling strength to his passive. Gnar = Catching boomerangs, simple yet effective, both sides can play around with it enough and doesn't make Gnar weak when he can't or insanely strong when he can, just enough power.

Kindred = The "inbetween", not too overpowered or game changing from either side, but helps influence decision making heavily, the jungle marks greatly incentivize playing her as a jungler rather than a laner which was the goal -- a jungling ADC. Arguably too well scaling, coupled with able to randomly mark Scuttlers which are too easy and safe to secure. Minor tweaks, but acceptable champion balance aside.

Fiora = Horrible, half RNG based and kit DEFINING, if Fiora is doing her minigame well she stomps, if she isn't she is super weak, minimal interaction from her opponent aside from "run away" Skarner = Illogical, and has no point to exist. Creates the scenario of either auto-win when on the crystals, or auto-lose when off the crystals. Current iteration unbalanceable and silly. Maybe change them to NOT be giant stat buff auras but provide utility as super wards making Skarner a strong invader and vision control jungler without needing a sightstone. Illaoi = Worst one ever, RNG on location of tentacles (to a degree), can be seen through fog of war so Illaoi is easy to track (fix please?), requires minimal interaction from Illaoi player and full time attention from her opponent -- the opposite of how it should work.

Gangplank = Redefined the character, arguably too powerful and scaling too well with player skill. I'll let a Master tier + GP main argue for or against this as I find it interesting enough to play against, but am far from good enough to pull off instant 3~4 barrel chains myself or play against those who can do it. (Talking Barrels obviously, the Silver Serpents is just a shitty gating on his ultimates power).

NinjaGuy691 votes

{quoted}

Fiora = Horrible, half RNG based and kit DEFINING, if Fiora is doing her minigame well she stomps, if she isn't she is super weak, minimal interaction from her opponent aside from "run away"

I agree almost completely with your post. For all the talk about clarity and counterplay, they go and make a minigame like Fiora's where it's partially RNG based. Plus, it doesn't matter where the vitals show up on you late game because she just needs to whack one or two of them and she'll force you to back because you lost a chunk of your health. Completely unhealthy and needs to be rebalanced.

Skarner = Illogical, and has no point to exist. Creates the scenario of either auto-win when on the crystals, or auto-lose when off the crystals. Current iteration unbalanceable and silly. Maybe change them to NOT be giant stat buff auras but provide utility as super wards making Skarner a strong invader and vision control jungler without needing a sightstone.

I'll start by saying that I'm a bit bias towards Repertoir and I know that his heart was in the right place when he wanted to rework Skarner, but I still have to admit that the spires minigame is exactly how you described it: auto-win when on them and auto-lose when not on them. Repertoir did state that he regretted how Skarner ended up post-rework and I'm sure he'd like to rectify the issues with his kit sometime in the future. And that's a lot more than what most other Rioters would be willing to admit.

Illaoi = Worst one ever, RNG on location of tentacles (to a degree), can be seen through fog of war so Illaoi is easy to track (fix please?), requires minimal interaction from Illaoi player and full time attention from her opponent -- the opposite of how it should work.

Oh boy. This one. So many issues that I don't even know where to begin. I mean, her damn tentacles can spawn on the ENEMY turrets for God's sake. Her minigame needs to be addressed promptly and in my opinion, it's almost as bad as Fiora's (who takes the cake as worst minigame in the game).

Gangplank = Redefined the character, arguably too powerful and scaling too well with player skill. I'll let a Master tier + GP main argue for or against this as I find it interesting enough to play against, but am far from good enough to pull off instant 3~4 barrel chains myself or play against those who can do it. (Talking Barrels obviously, the Silver Serpents is just a shitty gating on his ultimates power).

Finally, Gangplank's barrels are a bit broken, and it's unfortunate that his kit needs to be essentially balanced around one spell. It's a problem and they need to address it so he isn't so reliant on a single spell in his kit to make or break him. Either way, take my upvote.

Retillin2 votes

Finally, Gangplank's barrels are a bit broken, and it's unfortunate that his kit needs to be essentially balanced around one spell. It's a problem and they need to address it so he isn't so reliant on a single spell in his kit to make or break him. Either way, take my upvote.

It's almost like they reworked him because they didn't like that his kit was built around one spell (Q) before the rework.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

{quoted}

Finally, Gangplank's barrels are a bit broken, and it's unfortunate that his kit needs to be essentially balanced around one spell. It's a problem and they need to address it so he isn't so reliant on a single spell in his kit to make or break him. Either way, take my upvote.

I think the main problem is the same problem that we have with Fiora and why both are so hot in competitive. They get to ignore defensive builds, they are both very strong at dueling people and yet the kind of champ you'd like to send top against them to avoid this is a tanky champ that will just farm and play safe but Fiora gets percentage max health true damage and GP's barrels ignore 40% of your armor and he has his passive true damage. AND they both are super mobile and their W's allow them to get out of being cc locked.

Wordse1 votes

As far as Illaoi goes I disagree - The Tentacles only spawn at exact spots on walls and you can manipulate them It's very easy actually Also because of how you manage the passive if your playing right and placing the tentacles ( 2 by turret/1 on turret/1 forward in a bush.) The interaction is making sure you have damage because without your tentabros you have no damage. They do present a headache when you get pulled but you can dodge test of spirit and if not minions block it 100% of the time and then well punch the Illaoi she can take damage but I promise you will kill with positioning and well superior damage early. + If you have a handy dandy jungler Illaoi gets reemed its a fact!

I really like Illaoi and want to say I main her one day so I hope this is enough to like rebut what you brought up. Also because I play so much Illaoi I can say GP's mini game very good hard to play against like test of spirit bt you cna just avoid it a good GP will still probably tag you but that just changes how you play the game.

Fuck Fiora, Skarner is in an unfortunate place

Shahamut5 votes

Fiora Likes her mini game.

Skarner on the other hand... He's... not too fond of his. :/

Aezanthya2 votes

Velkoz is boring.

harass, another harass/farming tool and a knock up.

Oh and you also get a long range ult.

wow. such gameplay.

He needs something more in his kit to make more enjoyable to play.

he just looks like a champ that was designed in league alpha... (no offense to the one who made him, I like the champ but he could use something more.)

BluePolarizer7 votes

yep so why don't we make every ADC player have to do 5 pushups in real life before they can autoattack? oops half the ADC player pool is disqualified.

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