Is League still purely a game?

SephAgro·Feb 20, 2015·58 votes·3,376 views

Is league even being balanced around the concept of a game anymore? Its a serious question. Lately Riot seems to be more of a Sports Association than a game developer.

55 Comments

ReikkenFeb 20, 201511 votes

That's what I've been saying in every other topic I post in. Riot is no longer a gamer friendly company. They only care about esports now. Everything they do goes towards that end.

xLegendary TrollFeb 20, 20157 votes

What's wrong with that? They've managed to create a scene for the game and it's clearly the most watched game through streaming. If you want to have fun playing casually then invite your real life bronze friends and play casually. Some of us take the game more seriously and like the direction they're going.

ReikkenFeb 20, 20155 votes

What's wrong is all the things they neglect or give up. It's the root of a lot of the complaints I see. For example, the one about the game no longer being as much about strategy.

SephAgroFeb 20, 20158 votes

{quoted}

What's wrong is all the things they neglect or give up. It's the root of a lot of the complaints I see. For example, the one about the game no longer being as much about strategy.

I think you're confused about the issue we're here to talk about. This isn't some debate about casual vs hardcore. What we are talking about is mobility creep and the direction the champion pool is heading in terms of accepted play style. In short, highly strategic immobile champions are being gutted out of the game for the sake of mobile champions that favor button mashing mechanics.

I could do without the bronze insult, but you've demonstrated that you have no idea what we are actually talking about right now.

ReikkenFeb 20, 20155 votes

Did you quote the wrong post? If not, I'm very confused.

xLegendary TrollFeb 20, 20156 votes

How can you say the game isn't about strategy? It's fundamentals stem from Real Time STRATEGY. Have you ever watched an LCS match? Champion select is probably the most strategic phase of the game and that's before it starts. They're not neglecting anything.

If Master Yi is dominating Bronze and the vocal minority starts whining that he's OP, should Riot nerf him?

BluePolarizerFeb 20, 20157 votes

Champ select's shit because so many champs do the same thing and there's not really hard counters anymore. You want to see real champ select have meaning? Look at DOTA 2.

RaptameiFeb 20, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Champ select's shit because so many champs do the same thing and there's not really hard counters anymore. You want to see real champ select have meaning? Look at DOTA 2.

If they introduced hard counters, they would have to make every champion free.

Every ailment with the game right now goes back to the business model.

BluePolarizerFeb 20, 20152 votes

In season 2 and 3 where if you did some things, you were guarenteed to die/lose/get zoned, but not anymore. Like how Vayne, if peeled for, could get a pentakill late game easily but was far easier to shut down in lane. Or if you got caught by Garen, he used to have very relevant damage.

ARCDASHFeb 21, 20154 votes

There's an argument that they should make every champion free.

As of now you need to grind roughly 70 games to get a $7 6300 champion, so it could be seen as a Pay To Win game.

RaptameiFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There's an argument that they should make every champion free.

As of now you need to grind roughly 70 games to get a $7 6300 champion, so it could be seen as a Pay To Win game.

They will have little choice but to make champions (or at least runes and runepages) free when HotS hits. It has 9 million beta signups. Assuming not everyone who wants to play a game will sign up for the beta, it could easily eclipse League's 32 million users.

And every single MOBA newbie will pick up HotS instead of League. It has multiple maps, shorter matches, a much less harsh skill floor (no items), familiar characters, a more accessible newbie experience instead of a huge grind full of IP noob traps, etc.

It doesn't matter that HotS has shallow gameplay, because that didn't stop Hearthstone from taking MTG's lunch money. People actually like shallow gameplay because it makes them feel skilled.

League is in real trouble and they will have to drop their prices within a year or so.

ARCDASHFeb 21, 20151 votes

Well honestly, I hope they do, it would fix many of the imbalances that League has. The first thing they should get rid of is the 1-30 level up system, so that people don't have to get worse stuff simply because they're new.

Of course, at the same time, there's a possibility that not everyone who plays the beta will like the game. I'm sure there are many who signed up to see how different it is, and some will come back to LoL.

KaisadiIIaFeb 21, 20153 votes

There used to be hard counters (not as hard as DotA2, but still) in this game before RIOT said that you should be able to pick whatever you want and win to everything with it, effectively leading to a situation when champion selection is just about who can do everything better.

Remember back in the days when Kassadin had 3 times the damage he has now? People didn't complain because if you saw Kassadin at champion selection you just picked Talon.

RaptameiFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There used to be hard counters (not as hard as DotA2, but still) in this game before RIOT said that you should be able to pick whatever you want and win to everything with it, effectively leading to a situation when champion selection is just about who can do everything better.

I'm seeing a trend where I post something, get downvoted, and a few days later people post the exact same thing. You're right, of course, because I was right when I posted this last week.

Remember back in the days when Kassadin had 3 times the damage he has now? People didn't complain because if you saw Kassadin at champion selection you just picked Talon.

Which is pay to win. What if you don't own Talon?

KaisadiIIaFeb 21, 20152 votes

Which is pay to win. What if you don't own Talon?

At bronze you just pick Master Yi because people have no idea there how to play against it (?).

Btw I think that's a recent problem since there are a lot more champions now. I think it's a problem with the IP system which were calculated when the champion pool were ~50-60 champions and not 120. Btw I agree: they have to do something if they want to keep the current champion unlocking system.

xLegendary TrollFeb 21, 20151 votes

Every champion has a hard counter. You just don't know them.

BluePolarizerFeb 21, 20151 votes

Not really. There's no hard counter to Lee Sin, Thresh, Zed, Vi, or J4.

Funny thing - Kassadin was an anti-mage specialist and had crazy damage before they put padding on him, but he was nowhere to be seen season 2/3 because Zed, Talon, Kha'Zix and several bruisers would wreck him if he got first picked. Then when Zed/Talon/bruisers got padding put on them, Kassadin suddenly became 90% ban.

ReikkenFeb 20, 20156 votes

Yes, some strategy is still present. It's just that there is less of it. It's continually being de-emphasized.

KaisadiIIaFeb 21, 20152 votes

I can't see where there is strategy in this game. I can only think about "When do we take down this turret?" "What do I play, Lee Sin or Jarvan?" and "Are we first pick? If we are not, ban Zed".

Whispering TideFeb 21, 20152 votes

Gamers is where esport participants come from.

KaisadiIIaFeb 21, 20153 votes

It's perfectly fine for me as long as they admit what are they doing instead of lying every single time they explain why they are doing something.

ZovokaFeb 20, 20159 votes

League of Legends is as much of a game as Football is a game. People Play football for fun, and then there is the big leagues.

PickleBabahFeb 21, 20153 votes

Except where football is mostly balanced, but League of Legends could still use some work for balance. Your point is valid though.

xLegendary TrollFeb 21, 20151 votes

How is football balanced? If someone is a lot bigger and stronger than me, then it is much more difficult for me to tackle them.

PickleBabahFeb 21, 20152 votes

The rules of which are balanced. If someone is bigger and stronger than you, you work to be stronger and bigger by training or switching roles. That is perfectly fine because how strong you are is based off of how much work you put into it. Here, Rito is the one training our champs, not us, and they aren't doing it the way it should be.

Killer X 12Feb 20, 20157 votes

They certainly seem to have their attention in a place other than the player base.

Seth LightheartFeb 20, 20155 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

TalamareFeb 20, 201523 votes

[{quoted}](name=Seth Lightheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LfBeZJz3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-20T18:57:46.137+0000)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Perfect Imbalance is what League of Legends used to be, except Riot are like actively trying to move onto Starcraft levels of reaction play that he described as being a BAD THING.

Perfect Imbalance example is something like Garen, Garen is brokenly strong. Completely overpowered, if he catches you... You're probably dead...

Except unless you know how to counter him, then he is only pretty good.

Cyclical Imbalance is why the ADC's keep changing in popularity now and then.

DeusVultFeb 21, 20156 votes

I completely agree, but Riot has a nasty habit of wanting to change all of the counters so that everyone is equal at all times.

When talking about champs like Garen, Voli, Olaf, etc. Riots uses the term "binary kit" As in, if they reach you, you are probably going to die. But if you know how to counter them, then they are way less powerful, as they have no means of dealing damage to you beyond a 300 AoE radius.

But Riot hates this, and as bias as it seems, it is because this game over the past 3 years has slowly moved into a direction where power has been centralized into ADC's and Assassins. Instead of being a perfect imbalance where most champs have a chance to kill each other, now its ADC kills everything, Assassin kills ADC, everything else is a meatshield for ADC

thanks Riot I want to go back to season 1 when everything was good even if it might have been broken

MrSexyHoboFeb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Perfect Imbalance is what League of Legends used to be, except Riot are like actively trying to move onto Starcraft levels of reaction play that he described as being a BAD THING.

Perfect Imbalance example is something like Garen, Garen is brokenly strong. Completely overpowered, if he catches you... You're probably dead...

Except unless you know how to counter him, then he is only pretty good.

Cyclical Imbalance is why the ADC's keep changing in popularity now and then.

tell that to darius. at no point in the game can garen beat darius unless you have lvl/gold advantage. go ahead try it out. and you say garen is broken so what does that make darius?

Ark Angel HFBFeb 20, 20156 votes

And then they released Lee-sin... left him too good... and the jungle got boring.

Seth LightheartFeb 21, 20151 votes

I can agree with that. There are some champs who were left strong for far too long. But the reason why lee is so good (as I assume you already know) is his kit, not his numbers. And a kit is much harder to mess with (as I assume you already know).

And when a kit is toxic Riot usually purposely breaks it so they can work on it later. Look at old eve.

Desmond LawFeb 20, 201512 votes

Stop posting that damn video. You have no idea what he's talking about.

Seth LightheartFeb 21, 20152 votes

I don't huh?

BallisticMouseFeb 20, 20156 votes

This may have been true in 2012 when the video was posted, but not anymore.

Seth LightheartFeb 21, 20152 votes

It has been true for as long as League has been out. Look at the forums a year ago. People are screaming the same thing with different champs.

KaisadiIIaFeb 21, 20153 votes

LOL nope. As I said above, RIOT is doing the opposite to what this video is talking about.

Seth LightheartFeb 21, 20151 votes

Ya... I guess your right. How is that Tryn top, free elo? He is still as strong as he was a few years ago right? Still crushing silver and gold?

Or Ryze mid? He is still god right?

Sion has over infinite sustain and does over 3k crits still well doesn't he?

LankPantsFeb 21, 20153 votes

To be fair around a year ago people were complaining about Lee and Zed. Infact two years ago there were people complaining about Lee...

While there was a period of time people weren't complaining about Zed the same can't be said about Lee, he's been a consistent balance problem.

Seth LightheartFeb 21, 20151 votes

Yes. Lee is kinda the exception. It isn't his numbers that make him strong. It is his kit, which makes it much harder to balance.

There were also some other champs that had kits that were toxic and because of it were nerfed into oblivion so they could be remade at a later time. Eve, Heim, and Sion come to mind. (same for urgot but he has yet to be reworked)

KaisadiIIaFeb 21, 20155 votes

Well, I can't see how RIOT is using the "Cyclical Imbalance". This video explains that "cyclical imbalance" requires:

Champions to not excel at everything no matter how good you are, and always having answers to everything. Well, RIOT is doing the opposite, they want champions to be able to counter everything and react to everything as long as the player is good enough (what they call now "counterplay"), and every new champion brings more overloaded kits that is very good at almost everything.
When a champion gets popular, you don't touch this and you let the players look for counters and figure out new strategies Again, RIOT is doing exactly the opposite: as fast as something gets popular, they insta-nerf it. I still don't know how so many people think that champions like Syndra are "suddenly" op when they have been the same for 3 years. RIOT is confusing "X champion excels AT THE CURRENT META" with "X champion is OP".

So, as long as I know, RIOT is destroying cyclical imbalance in this game and, instead, forcing the meta game.

Seth LightheartFeb 21, 20151 votes

Let's talk about OP.

This... this is OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHw1_Csup84

Lets talk about balance too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AHEmLMbuGU#t=27

Want me to dig up an old video on 5 turret heim?

mack9112Feb 20, 20152 votes

It certainy is a game but I think there is more strategy involved in It than People think.

junglerboy16Feb 20, 20152 votes

—which riot is slowly killing to be replaced with "counterplay". Strategy is stuff like team work and execution of predetermined actions, like pulling off a 5 man wombo-combo with an Amumu Ult into Vel'koz Ult into MF Ult, maybe with a yasuo and malphite in there as well. What we have now is hardly the same level of strategy that you would expect, mostly just "when do I take this tower or that objective, and can I kill someone else?".

KaisadiIIaFeb 21, 20153 votes

Strategy is "the enemy has targeted CC so I'll run Cleanse or build Quicksilver sash" Counterplay is "the enemy has a skill shot so I'll just dash away"