Nami, Soraka, Janna VS pyke

Saezio·Sep 16, 2019·3 votes·1,368 views

Hey, just a thought.

While everyone is so busy hating on Pyke for some reason ( I guess you feel bad when he outplays you) these 3 champions beat the hell out of Pyke(all 3 with 53%+ winrates against him). Isn't he supposed to win vs squishy enchanters?

What's the deal here? Trying to understand. Also, these 3 have huge overall winrates, can we get some nerfs on them please riot? Why is this allowed to go under the radar for so long, but as soon as stuff like aftershock lux is meta it's pummelled back into the ground?

Trying to have a civil discussion here, based on FACTS. Please don't bring the "Winrates actually don't matter in this case because it doesn't suit me"

Why is it ok for janna to have 53% winrate ? She is one of the easiest champions to play, same with nami. But god forbid rakan gets near the 51%

47 Comments

DoranShieldOpSep 16, 20192 votes

i feel outplayed by a perma invisible mundo with zed burst and ammumu cc when he lands literally any ability and you are dead meanwhile you try to hit yours and he peaces out before you get to kill him again and again and again

truely the epitome of skill in league to play this champ and land literally any ability and then follow in with the rest just because he's not nasus level easy let's not start calling what pyke does "outplaying" ok??

really fun champion

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

with zed burst

You really want to lose all credibility like that huh?

Do me a favour and go look up pyke's ability damage numbers. Oh, btw, every skill in his kit is easily dodgeable, and don't forget his Q slows himself and has a charge time.

DoranShieldOpSep 16, 20191 votes

he deals that much amount of damage tho my comment was not 100% serious but you are trying to ignore that solo lane pyke is a thing and the most cancerous thing to lane against as well

at least you can dodge zed abilities if he land one of them pyke is literally the ad assassin version of lux; land one ability=you are dead

SaezioSep 16, 20192 votes

Solo lane pyke is awful. Are you really bringing up a champion that can only waveclear with autoattacks?

And NO even if the pyke lands his Q, you can beat him 1v1 with every damn champion. Because you have the entirety of your wave to help you. Pyke cant 1v1 anyone. Unless he already has gotten like 3 kills previously and is already ahead in levels.

I see you are in EUNE. Wanna pick pyke in a 1v1 with me? I'll pick any champ you tell me to pick and beat you. (this will be very easy for you since I haven't played SR in a year, cmon don't back out of it)

DoranShieldOpSep 16, 20191 votes

doesn't even need to have best waveclear when he can just goes invisible one shots you then go roam to other lanes and repeat

i swear he's the most abusive shit and you keep pretending hes a harmless flower that deals no damage

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

Come on then, beat me with it.

You are pretending that he "doesn't have the best waveclear" when he has the worst wave clear in the entirety of the game.

DoranShieldOpSep 16, 20191 votes

so leblanc has terrible waveclear as well are you telling me leblanc isn't cancer especially this dumb doran blade leblanc shit moe invented or whoever other high elo players did it's abusive af

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

No, leblanc has average waveclear. And she can 100-0 you. Nothing like pyke.

I am telling you there is not A SINGLE CHAMPION in LoL that has worse Waveclear than pyke and you are bringing up a champion that not only has AOE but also can instagib the cannons.

If you think LB has terrible WC you are only comparing her to other META midlaners, and not EVERY EXISTING CHAMPION.

Please invite me and play solo lane pyke vs me. Put your money where your mouth is.

DoranShieldOpSep 16, 20191 votes

uh average waveclear lmao anyways when u are climbing and ur mmr increase and u start laning against people few leagues above and they one shot u with pyke you'll remember what i said, pyke one shotting is a thing just because i and u can't do it doesn't mean pyke lacks damage

SaezioSep 17, 20191 votes

but you said you have played a lot of pyke. Why can't you just show me?

Your facts are messed up mate.

Ok, you don't want to face me with pyke, even though I am telling you I am willing to face you with any other champion (ok except yuumi LOL) Just show me a clip of pyke oneshoting (which means 100-0) someone on even terms.(AKA not being 5/0 while the enemy is 2 levels lower)

Or show me your match history in the account you actually faced that mythical pyke.

DoranShieldOpSep 17, 20191 votes

i used to play pyke is the point he's telling me i never played him not sure why is that even important since i am concerned about people who can play pyke and play him solo lane regardless of amount of games played i didn't play pyke in a while i am sure i am super rusty and besides if we are at similar skill level the 1v1 would be very boring

Or show me your match history in the account you actually faced that mythical pyke.

next time i lane against pyke i'll show u promise

SaezioSep 17, 20191 votes

Did you perhaps face a solo lane pyke like 3 months ago? When he still had his creep damage on his E? and not on the last patch? And that's why you are confused.

Because solo lane Pyke WAS a real strong pick up until maybe 1 month or so after MSI. He isn't viable anymore unless you are some master/challenger OTP that just roams with him half the game.

DoranShieldOpSep 17, 20191 votes

no, but i play a lot of ranked if it's not today or yesterday it's a lot of match history digging i don't make big deal of pyke's damage anymore thought everyone knew he could do a lot of damage but apparently boards are in denial

SaezioSep 17, 20191 votes

Mate, seriously you got shown he is in the bottom 10 champs in league in terms of damage. That's hard facts.

Just go look at a pro player's pyke game and look at damage dealt. It's so low

DoranShieldOpSep 17, 20191 votes

that's sad he still can all in squishies fine tho u also think new pantheon deals no damage right?

HotarµSep 16, 20192 votes

perma invisible

W has a cooldown on it. He's not invisible 100% of the time.

mundo with zed burst

1 - His passive takes time to scale, but it is very strong and the reason for that is because of his inability to build any form of health or defensive item. If you CC Pyke at any point mid-late game and focus him properly, he will die.

2 - If you've ever actually looked at end-game statistics before, you'll see Pyke does a surprisingly low amount of damage. It seems like he does a lot because he only goes in when you're already low and then hits you with a "9,999", but he does not do that much damage by himself. Look at any statistics website for more evidence of this.

ammumu cc

Uh, what? He's got some of the most telegraphed CC in the game. Any dash, blink, or even an MS boost is enough to dodge it.

truely the epitome of skill in league to play this champ and land literally any ability and then follow in with the rest just because he's not nasus level easy let's not start calling what pyke does "outplaying" ok??

Let's play a game called "Spot the person who has never played Pyke before."

Yes, as much as you want to disagree with it, Pyke does require skill and if you aren't constantly thinking about each champion's mobility and utility spells, you will fail at the champion.

DoranShieldOpSep 16, 20191 votes

really but i used to play pyke exclusively hmm guess i never played him b4

HotarµSep 16, 20193 votes

1 - If you have played him before for more than one game (which I kind of doubt based on how you just raged about him) you did it on a second account, because the one you're commenting on right now has never owned or played him.

2 - If you did actually play Pyke "exclusively" you'd know how much damage he **actually **deals (here's a hint: it's not "zed burst" levels) and how hard it is to consistently land ultimates against competent opponents.

DoranShieldOpSep 16, 20191 votes

u are right it's not this account i didn't rage about pyke lmao it just annoys me when someone calls pressing their buttons without thinking "outplaying" tho

he deals that amount of damage stay oblivious all you want but just because you can't do it doesn't mean other pyke players can't

HotarµSep 16, 20192 votes

he deals that amount of damage stay oblivious all you want but just because you can't do it doesn't mean other pyke players can't

#League of Graphs:

From Iron to Master+ (yes, Master tier) he does an average of 9,000 to 11,000 damage per game.

~~Ranked #130 out of the #145 champions in terms of damage dealt.~~

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pyke/iron https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pyke/bronze https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pyke/silver https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pyke/gold https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pyke https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pyke/diamond https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pyke/master

#Champion.GG:

Same thing, Pyke is listed as dealing an average of 9,000 to 11,000 damage per game across all ELOs.

https://champion.gg/champion/Pyke/Support?&league=bronze https://champion.gg/champion/Pyke/Support?&league=silver https://champion.gg/champion/Pyke/Support?&league=plat https://champion.gg/champion/Pyke/Support?

#Lolalytics:

7,000 to 9,000 average damage per game.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Pyke/

#Leaguespy:

8,000 to 10,000 average damage per game.

https://www.leaguespy.net/league-of-legends/champion/pyke/stats

So let's see, I've got 4 websites that support my claims, 2 of which are some of the biggest statistic websites out right now with plenty of data gathered. I'm also a Pyke main with ~~536,493~~ mastery points (click me for proof) who has been playing him almost every day since release, so there's that.

DoranShieldOpSep 17, 20191 votes

what am i supposed to look at? i laned against several pykes that could one shot me if you can't one shot people with 500k mastery on pyke then uhh..idk what to say tbh

HotarµSep 17, 20191 votes

Yikes dude, just yikes.

Ignorance is bliss to some, I guess.

DoranShieldOpSep 17, 20191 votes

okay?

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

Oh before I forget.

Janna has 2 losing matchups, Soraka and Swain.

How is this even allowed to be?

ShyImagoghnarSep 16, 20191 votes

healbots and shieldbots tend to be more useful after laning phase

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

So, if a champion makes their team win a game its ok. If a champion wins lane it's not ok.

Isn't that a very sentimental approach? "Mwahaha pyke dunked me in lane, even though he was useless the rest of the game while I was way more useful I want him nerfed so I can kill him in lane too.."

Kinda like that?

HotarµSep 16, 20191 votes

[deleted]

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

in plat+ janna has 9%+ pickrate Pyke has 13% pickrate.

I am using plat+ stats.

I don't think going bellow plat would improve pyke's numbers vs Janna, but let's see. Gold: Janna ( 53,1% Win, 6,1% pick) Pyke(50,4% Win 12,1% pick) Silver: Janna (51,86%, 4,1%) Pyke (50,99% 13%)

So, even if we go as low as silver pyke's pickrate is never over 13%.

Also, the lowest elo Riot balances around is plat, so I am asking why nothing is being done about those champions that are clearly overperforming.

And since you say pyke is meant to lose to enchanters and tanks, What champions is he meant to beat?

HotarµSep 16, 20191 votes

And since you say pyke is meant to lose to enchanters and tanks, What champions is he meant to beat?

Yeah I fucked up hard, I **totally **misread what you said and wrote an entire comment in response to that before realizing it lol

Sorry! :s

SaezioSep 16, 20192 votes

Haha, no worries mate.

I just don't get all the unreasonable pyke hate. The champion has very very clear weaknesses. That can be exploited by the easiest of champions in the support role.

I am starting to think all the pyke hate threads are coming from poke mage supports that hate being held accountable for... Velkoz Zyra

HotarµSep 16, 20191 votes

There's definitely a lot of unwarranted hate surrounding Pyke. Same with champions like Yasuo, Zoe, etc.

No matter how strong or weak the champion is, they're going to hate on them until someone else they hate even more comes along.

That being said, personally I do think Pyke is a little strong right now, he's got massive representation everywhere and a healthy winrate in addition to that. I just don't think a champion with a high playrate should hover at a 50-51% WR, they should be in the 47-48% range.

edit: Idk if someone is trying to make it seem like I'm downvoting you, but they only hit the comment I replied to lol. Have a +1

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

Nami has 0,2% playrate difference to pyke in Plat+ matches world wide. 13,1% and 12,9% to be precise. And nami has 2% higher winrate. But for some reason everyone seems to believe nami is the epitome of a balanced support.

What gives?

HotarµSep 16, 20191 votes

Nami has 0,2% playrate difference to pyke in Plat+ matches world wide. 13,1% and 12,9% to be precise. And nami has 2% higher winrate. But for some reason everyone seems to believe nami is the epitome of a balanced support.

Well for starters, I think everyone knows how strong Nami is right now.

She's frequently listed as an S tier on every video or website that ranks champions. If you're talking about the Boards in general, I think it just goes back to that thing I said earlier. If they hate fighting a champion (no matter how strong or weak they are) they'll only complain about that champion until someone else comes along. Nami could be at a 65% WR with a 20% PR and I guarantee you people would still complain about Pyke :P

What website are you using for statistics? Most of the time I use League of Graphs as I find that to be the most consistently accurate, I don't find Champion.gg or OP.GG to be as good.

Either way, Pyke's representation is a lot higher overall and higher winrates on more popular champions tend to be more important than high winrates on less popular ones. They're both very good right now, I don't think there's any point in trying to compare the two.

SaezioSep 17, 20191 votes

Oh, sorry I just saw this reply.

I use U.GG lately. I heard that was the most accurate and close to riot's internal statistics? Could be wrong.

KoiyakiSep 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Nami has 0,2% playrate difference to pyke in Plat+ matches world wide. 13,1% and 12,9% to be precise. And nami has 2% higher winrate. But for some reason everyone seems to believe nami is the epitome of a balanced support.

What gives?

because shes a jack of all trades and master of nothing. You can;t spam heal becuase it costs a buttload of mana (and they did nerf the cd by a second last season i believe) herbubble has the most messed up hitbox NA and its so easily dodgable its disgusting. Her R again very easily dodged unless its point blank. her E is the only real thing in her kit with no drawbacks, since its just an auto thing.

Overall, If u wanted a pure healer, Take Soraka or sona, much better You want a cc bot? Get a tank/janna. You want peel? Janna

Want a neh mix of everything that requires u to know more than just ur champ? then play the fish i guess.

SomeStarsSep 16, 20191 votes

how dare you disrupt the echo chamber. You will face three dozen downvotes for your crime against the boards. [darius-angry]

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

I love the downvotes, I just wish people voiced their opinions as well. Have a debate that is based on facts maybe? Idk...

Kai GuySep 16, 20191 votes

You should try to teach players about Elo and MMR some time. You will find boards users to be Very rational and reasonable on the topic.

SaezioSep 17, 20191 votes

I am sure I have tried over the years.

I think that about 1 in 5 boards users want to actually discuss. the other 4 are here to listen to their own opinions voiced by someone else.

I mean, there is a guy here trying to argue solo lane pyke can 100-0. Or has waveclear comparable to LB. This stuff is not even an opinion, it's hard facts, you can look at the damn numbers. I guess it is to be expected in a world where anti-vaxers and flat earthers exist though.

KoiyakiSep 16, 20191 votes

don't look at winrates for overall strength of champ tbh. Because popularity and skill differences between players skew that number way too much, IE look at Ezreal, he's played a buttload but has a eh WR cuz alot of people who get autofilled adc play him cuz he's 'safe'...

Anyway

As said before, enchanters are way more useful post lane phase than a kill lane is, especially if said kill lane isnt ahead. They just have more utility. The same can be said for people like alistar and leo, way more utility than pyke. Theyre abilities are the problem, they don't need to be nerfed. Once the meta shifts from late scaling carries in the botlane people will start asking for nerfs to tank supports again.

And say if rito was to nerf them, how would u want them to be nerfed anyway? Shields have been gutted already(ie u actually need to have good response time to sheild properly, and ren can eat sheilds now), theres an item or 2 i believe that cuts healing (but my adc never build it so idk if it exists) they get 2 tapped by basically everyone post lane phase if their positioning isnt good. They usually dont have mobility, just easily dodge-able peel (sans lulu poly...but thats a whole nother thing). If their carries are behind, they legit cant makes as meaningful of plays as say a mage or tank supp could to pull the game back.

So...what exactly do u want?

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

I want people to admit that Nami Soraka and Janna are more impactful than Pyke and are stronger in Plat+ games.

And that the hate for pyke comes from the fact that he is an assassin support and people don't feel good when they face him, it has nothing to do with him being strong. His strength level is average.

And you said it yourself, post lane phase, enchanters are better. So, we hate pyke not because he is strong, not because he wins games, but because he can make the lane less enjoyable.

KoiyakiSep 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I want people to admit that Nami Soraka and Janna are more impactful than Pyke and are stronger in Plat+ games.

And that the hate for pyke comes from the fact that he is an assassin support and people don't feel good when they face him, it has nothing to do with him being strong. His strength level is average.

And you said it yourself, post lane phase, enchanters are better. So, we hate pyke not because he is strong, not because he wins games, but because he can make the lane less enjoyable.

Highkey, I would say u shouldn't count plat as high elo...like at all, but thats just me.

For me, I ban pyke for 3 reasons

So my top/jungler don't pick him...it never ends well.
So my adc doesn't get pulled by him.

And 3. Cuz people have the worst mentals

This is a meta of hard scaling adcs for the most part and if u win lane...on a late game adc, games basically done Also, people have terribad mentals atm.

If anyone on their team dies 2 times during the first 5 mins, the game is ove (in their head)r and they either soft in till 15 mins or they afk...So I'd rather just not have a champ who can make that a reality in the game.

And in high diamond, a decent pyke is basiclly as useful as an enchanter post lane phase. But then again in true high elo, a decent player can make anything work. As long as they are trying and don't tilt.

Now would I say enchanters are 'strong' atm. I would say 'yes' with the caveat of that people dont wanna play true tank supports (not counting thresh, hes a play maker). cuz hard engage tanks destroy enchanters. If they were played more then it would be a hard no on enchaters being strong.

Would I say pyke is weak? No, but he suffers from popularity syndrome where the few who are actually decent on him, make others who are bad wanna play him and increases the stigma of those who get destroyed by him or have games destroyed by having bad ones on their team.

SaezioSep 16, 20191 votes

Did I say I consider plat+ high elo?

If so, my mistake. I just think it is an elo that everyone can relate to, because it is an extremely feasible goal for everyone, but at the same time doesn't suffer from the extreme variances that silver and gold do.

And I have come to understand that when using stats most people use plat+ stats.

Whenever I bring up masters+ stats for example people kinda make fun of me because of "small sample size"

Metal JannaSep 17, 20191 votes

What stats site are you using Saezio? Because op.gg has a 51.26% WR for Janna into Pyke and she's currently sitting at a 52.27% WR overall. Which means yes, Pyke does counter her (less than other enchanters because her tornado is perfect for interrupting his dash... try that with Lulu). She's just busted overall.

SaezioSep 17, 20191 votes

I understand OP.GG is not a reliable site. (being only stats from KR and all that)

I use U.GG. I heard riot themselves said it was the site with stats closest to their internal data? But definitely don't use OP.GG.

Pyke has loosing matchups to all 3 of the champions I mentioned according to u.gg in plat+ games. And same results are in Lolalytics

Edit: I just checked op.gg Janna wins 51,3% vs Pyke 48,7% so in OP .GG janna counters pyke as well.

Metal JannaSep 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I understand OP.GG is not a reliable site. (being only stats from KR and all that)

I use U.GG. I heard riot themselves said it was the site with stats closest to their internal data? But definitely don't use OP.GG.

Pyke has loosing matchups to all 3 of the champions I mentioned according to u.gg in plat+ games. And same results are in Lolalytics

Edit: I just checked op.gg Janna wins 51,3% vs Pyke 48,7% so in OP .GG janna counters pyke as well.

51.3% vs Pyke as compared to 52.3% overall is still a counter. Just one so mild that her currently high winrate in general overpowers it.