So, how many times is it now?

Saezio··63 votes·15,188 views

Just wondering, in the last 2 seasons, how many times has a rune broken a champion? Vs how many times did that happen in the first 7 seasons of this game?

Why are we insisting on these runes? Aren't they causing more trouble than merit? Aren't they too strong on some champs and too lackluster on others? Should champions be balanced around their primary rune choice? And doesn't that destroy diversity?

I really want a discussion. Please try to keep it facts only and a conclusion that you think should be drawn from mentioned facts.

36 Comments

Kai Guy34 votes

Old runes where subtle but subpar runes or low pages crippled players. It got less painful once riot added in Role selection, as that drastically reduced the # of required pages.But the inability to swap runes on the fly was an issue. The IP cost for good runes was an issue. Champions getting countered in lane by a page was an issue. Being crippled in off roles by not having a page ready was an issue.

But lets be real, we are not really talking about runes. Summoner Masteries Runes reforged was just Riot reworking the Champion Masteries... But they kept the name as "Runes" Because players got confused about summoners champion masteries vs Champion mastery. The removal of Stat ball pages just provided them more power budget to spend hence why current rune pages make a massive impact.

And Masteries did have a few years where one option created issues and had to get nerfed, as well as several times where they pigeon holed players into 1 set. Some of the stuff like DFT,Thunderlords stood out.

So... both systems have created negative balance impacts over the years. But they also add skill expression via knowledge and mechanic understanding that separate the player base.

Not that I care... I am an off meta player so I do shit my way regardless.

Saezio13 votes

I have to agree I hated the p2w element of the old runes. Cause it created huge gaps between someone with 2 and 20 rune pages.

But I also hate the fact that new Runes are so Overtuned that champs need to have their kit balanced around them.

I remember some of the old masteries being tuned around, but never seen champs changed because of interactions with masteries. Maybe DFT and jhin?

Eedat5 votes

It wasn't really p2w because you couldn't buy them with real currency. I think the only thing you could really pay for was IP boosts. It was more grind your face off for an eternity for these things that really should just be free to begin with.

Quite a few of the old masteries were problematic with CoC and Thunderlords being the biggest headaches imo. Old runes were just stat sticks which could be problematic as well in their own ways

Saezio3 votes

Yeah but with CoC and TLD, it was the rune that was nerfed not champs because of their synergy.

Maybe the runes were with IP only, but as you mentioned IP boosts were a thing, and also, Rune pages were purchaseable by moneys(obviously a fragment of the completed page's cost but I think it's worth mentioning)

I am not saying that system was the best, but they could simply make runes free.

I find it really poor balancing when champs are nerfed because of their interaction with new runes because everyone not using said rune is fucked extra.

I'd rather have lesser runes that are oriented around piloting the early game(try to snowball or try to survive whatever), and have champs be balanced around their own kit while the runes fall off as the game progresses.

P.S. When I am mentioning runes, I am referring to the entire system of stuff you get when loading in the game, be it the new RR system or the old Runes+Masteries.

True Garen4 votes

{quoted}

It wasn't really p2w because you couldn't buy them with real currency. I think the only thing you could really pay for was IP boosts. It was more grind your face off for an eternity for these things that really should just be free to begin with.

Quite a few of the old masteries were problematic with CoC and Thunderlords being the biggest headaches imo. Old runes were just stat sticks which could be problematic as well in their own ways

I thought that he meant Play2w.

Glaricion1 votes

{quoted}

It wasn't really p2w because you couldn't buy them with real currency. I think the only thing you could really pay for was IP boosts. It was more grind your face off for an eternity for these things that really should just be free to begin with.

Quite a few of the old masteries were problematic with CoC and Thunderlords being the biggest headaches imo. Old runes were just stat sticks which could be problematic as well in their own ways

Rune Pages can be bought w/ RP. Nitpicky, but there were also runes included in the Collector's Editions of LoL.

Saezio1 votes

Yeah but the whole concept of "I have grinded normals for X amount of hours so I have ways to play around counterpicks or even stomp lanes when I do the counterpicking" isn't what I would call "fair play" either. So either way (even if runes and pages were only obtained by IP and boosts didn't exist) I consider it unhealthy.

Glaricion1 votes

The whole Planetside 2 way of doing things was toxic.

"Oh hey, not only am I just plain better at the game than you, but I also am more powerful than you by virtue of having played more!"

As you said, that still exists when it comes to champion pools, but that toxic design element being removed from runes in Runes Reforged was one of its good sides.

Now if only its power creep and randomly making champions S or troll tier from patch-to-patch would be removed.

Heos002 votes

But every problem (or the most common, like so much information) of the old runes could have been easily resolved by just lowering the quantity of runes, free and every rune for everyone since level 1 standar pages for casuals and a better tutorial around them, but NAH, lets make a completely new rune system that boost champions damage to the sky. Now we have a fkin Pyke that gets 70 free damage (70 DAMAGE INTO A TANK RUNE USED BY AN ASSASSIN XD), 70 armor and 70 magic resist everytime he melee Q, ffs riot.

True Garen8 votes

{quoted}

Just wondering, in the last 2 seasons, how many times has a rune broken a champion? Vs how many times did that happen in the first 7 seasons of this game?

Why are we insisting on these runes? Aren't they causing more trouble than merit? Aren't they too strong on some champs and too lackluster on others? Should champions be balanced around their primary rune choice? And doesn't that destroy diversity?

I really want a discussion. Please try to keep it facts only and a conclusion that you think should be drawn from mentioned facts.

Runes Reforged was a mistake.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

I really want a discussion. Please try to keep it facts only and a conclusion that you think should be drawn from mentioned facts.

You didn't even try man.

True Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fpvEwEza,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-06-13T05:02:53.325+0000)

You didn't even try man.

I wasn't the one who called for the discussion, though.

Garen sufferred from being singularly unable to abuse any Rune. He can use almost all of the Keystones, but is generally played with one of like 3 or 4 of them. Perhaps he typifies the intention.

Shyvana received a brutal nerf to her Q damage, which actually defined her subsequent playstyle. Damage Shyvana was no longer really an option. On-hit Shyvana with PTA became the rule. (No more Warrior, only Bloodrazor.) Until buffs which opened up AP Shyvana. So the champion was redefined as much as possible without an actual re-work, ultimately because PTA existed. The end-result isn't bad exactly. But it should not have HAD to happen. Runes aren't supposed to do things like this.

OP should Pin a list to the top of the discussion.

We could also talk about Runes that were never satisfactorily replaced. We lost the %4.5 MS Quints. Celerity gives nothing like that, currently. It started last season at %4 and was nerfed repeatedly until what we have now. But why? Why was %4.5 ok for years and suddenly determined to be overpowering? It's not coming from the playerbase...

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

I was quoting OP, but I just don't get why you couldn't have posted what you have above, for your original post. You quoted OP's entire post, so I'm guessing you read it.

True Garen4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fpvEwEza,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-13T15:33:32.841+0000)

I was quoting OP, but I just don't get why you couldn't have posted what you have above, for your original post. You quoted OP's entire post, so I'm guessing you read it.

He and the others before me should get the ball rolling.

Jennifer4207 votes

awww i thought the thread is going to ask how many ryze reworks. just in case you wanna know: 7

Sir Saltarin1 votes

PulsefireCaitlyn to Ryze :

"Are you version six or seven ? I've lost the count"

Big Tiddy Fox GF6 votes

Remember when we had mastery trees before it changes in S6, and then get deleted in S8 ang got replaced by "Runes Reforged", AKA "Look, I'm going to make a few champ broken, and the rest ok/trash tier"? https://i.imgur.com/RiqxKXr.jpg

Josh Sand5 votes

I play support, so theres basically one solved page for most champions. Maybe I'll adjust a minor rune or stat bonus from time to time, but overall, theres very little thought or experimentation that goes into it for me.

Its a really gd boring system for support players.

Saezio2 votes

I wouldn't really mind not having to swap around too many things if one RP was great for my playstyle(regardless of role)

But I feel like the best option is not even close to the second best alternative so most of the time you are gimping yourself too hard for "changing it up" (talking about keystones, not secondaries)

True Garen4 votes

Anyway, are we really going to make a list of all the Champions who were nerfed because they broke a Rune? It must be like half of them. And it does seem really backwards. There were calls to just eliminate runes and masteries all together. If Runes' original purpose was indeed to provide some additional revenue, then this would make sense.

Saezio4 votes

You are talking about the new runes system I presume?

Just wanna be clear about it.

I don't remember many champs being "balanced" around old masteries. Could be wrong though

True Garen4 votes

The "Runes Reforged" - what you mentioned in your Original Post. The first sentence.

Saezio2 votes

Great that's what I thought, but you never know :)

Sõna4 votes

Back at the time where masteries and old runes were still existing. I was reading an article on why Riot decided to nerf double-edge sword, and what caused me to remember that there was a statement made by Riot saying that, "Masteries and runes are not supposed to significantly impact the game, rather to provide little tools for champions to be fun and interactive". If you remember, old Riot balance team did not like damages and nerfed a lot of damages from masteries and champions. Early laning phrase were longer and snowballing were too slow. But after the end of the season 7, masteries and old runes were removed and implement new rune system "Rune Reforge", and the damage from this new system became so high. At this point, the internal management of balancing department most likely had something huge happened. Who knows?

tldr: They should bring down some damages from Rune reforge, and increase the item builds and balance the item choices. From my experience of playing other MOBAs, League item build need to be more variable, lesser stats but with better utility to decrease toxicity abuse from RUNES. Also need to get rid of absolute true damage as much as possible from Rune. Bring in double-edge sword effects on items, having high AD but sacrifice cooldown reduction on item, or having high ARMOR but lower damage output -10% on an item etc.

Romans VI XXIII3 votes

I honestly miss the Old Rune and Masteries system.

Was so fun going with a full AD page on Sion and having over 100 AD at lvl 1. Tilting people at lvl 1 with summoner 14 summoner 6 was epic.

rtbf2476264233 votes

they should just revert runes and masteries

XeroKimo2 votes

Personally I think balancing around runes is more healthy then removing them and completely balancing champions around their kits. Odd I know. Aside from having to fine tune every champion from scratch again, I can't really explain in words why I'd rather have runes, so I'll be going around with my reasoning by examples, or just one...

Before I begin, I have to say, as unfun many people find current League to be, I find that a large portion of league's champ pool are a viable choice to play, it's hardly ever, " here's 10-20 champs that are meta, play them or lose the game ", kinda situation anymore. It might've cost some fun for this feeling, but with that in mind... Let's take the assassin class, usually excel in short trades, and bursting down enemies if they manage to get on top of their target. If we had to keep this kind of fantasy true, while keeping a large champion pool in balance, what would we have to do? Well most assassins win early short trades due to being able to proc electrocute, so we'd probably end up needing to buff their early game damage, but doing that in turn would also increase their wave clearing powers, or making their poke ability strong making them a, why play mages when you can play assassins kinda situation. If we don't buff their early game damage, we could buff their resistances, but that could re-introduce the tank assassin trope that riot has already killed. "But if there are no more runes, everyone lost some damage, so wouldn't assassins still win short trades?", could be the case yes, but this is just talking about early game, what about late game? what about if the assassin is behind?

After thinking about this example, as bad as it is, I now have words for why I prefer having runes around. They are both a snowball and comeback mechanic. They augment a champion to have an opportunistic upper ground, by having their rune ready, they can make stuff that's usually unfavourable be favourable. Some might not like it, because it might take away the weakness of a champion. Fair point, but it's opportunistic for a reason, it's not 24/7 increase damage or utility that one might've had if runes don't exists, which could otherwise make a champion too strong with said increase, or too weak without. It could act as the reason to being able to come back on top despite being behind, because your opponent's small misplay. While the enemy misplaying could get you on top, if the gap is large enough, that small misplay would mean nothing in a world without runes, making comebacks harder then it already is. But here, even that small misplay with a large gap in levels/gold could give you the upper hand depending on the rune/champion/match up etc. This small opportune moment, is IMO, the reason why so many champions can be viable, or at least, the gap between the strongest in the meta, and the weakest in the meta has shrunk, which is something I'd rather have if it doesn't cost too much fun, and I don't think it costed too much. Though hell would I know, there are so many balance leverages in League that even a small change could have huge ripples in the game.

EDIT: TL;DR: Just read the last paragraph, otherwise. Runes are both a snowball and a comeback mechanic. They give opportunistic power to champions which can allow various champions to have increased damage/utility that might invalidate their weakness, but it's better than always having that increased damage/utility that could otherwise make a champion too strong or too weak. For what I see, balancing around runes allowed the gap between the strongest meta champions and the weakest meta champions to shrink, which I say is an overall good, even if it costed some of the fun factors in game.

Saezio1 votes

I am not saying Runes shouldn't exist at all btw.

I am saying they should be less percentage of a champion's power. And they shouldn't be altering a champions playstyle THIS MUCH.

Aftershock on mages for example, or the mere existence of conqueror have entirely changed how champions are played.

Also, if champions are balanced around their primary rune choice, this means people that want to deviate from that are gimping themselves that much more.

An assassin from behind should always feel bad. This is because of how great assassins feel when ahead.

Total Violation2 votes

When you say a champion do you mean Ezreal? Because when it comes to game breaking, he is the prime cultprit. And he has been rendered broken by items ever since Season 3 with the disgusting Elder Lizard + Iceborn Gauntlet blue build.

At this pont it has become an annual pre-season tradition that Ezreal sybnergyzes too well with an item or rune.

Saezio2 votes

As much as I dislike ezreal having his own little item comfy zone, I didn't mean ezreal. I meant Runes that straight up break champions, as in either completely covering their weakness or severely changing their playstyle based only on the rune choice, ending up in nerfing a champion because of that synergy.

Yeah ezreal can use klepto really well, but the champion is kept at a relatively low strength (except for the double tear fiesta that riot took too long to fix) so I don't mind him that much.

What I don't like about ez is how he has made gauntlet unusable for everyone else(MAKE IT MELEE ONLY RIOT ITS EASY) and how muramana exists simply for his convenience when no other champ uses that either. But that's a discussion for another thread

GodlyBane2 votes

I like the new runes, im not gonna lie. But the keystones? Dude those need to go. Either that or bring back the old keystones smh

PaffWasTaken2 votes

At this point, the only balanceable outcome possible would be creating an individual "rune tree" for every single champions, similar to augments in the Odyssey event(but less insane, lets be clear). Something too busted on a champ? Either change it or remove it; no other champs gets undirectly influenced by it and can bring diversity to gameplay on the same champion.

The only problem is that Riot would never put up so much work on something that isn't related to Esport.

GigglesO2 votes

I just want a revert to season 1 runes/masteries... bring back fortify while we are at it.

it be lìke that2 votes

Nasus second wind and ult makes him a mundo with a 600 damage q

The Kombinator1 votes

There was always balance issues in the game, and it is inevitable. The new rune system removed the p2w element wich is good. No longer need to farm IP just so you can put the master runes in. No longer need to farm IP, or pay with real money for that 20 rune page so you are prepared for everything.

You got your ban. Use it against the most broken champions. What i would change is to rework the ban system so that you can ban ~10% of the champions at any time. Currently it would mean 14 ban in total. 2 ban for the first 2 pick, and 1 for the other 3. Once the 151. champion is out it would go into 16. 2 ban for the first 3 pick, and 1 for the other 2.

Another bonus to such system is that they wouldn't need to count, and calculate on how much bans the game needs. Just be sure not to neglect any role for too long.

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