It feels bad when a mobile top laner outscales/ out snowballs a Juggernaut

Hexs Fortune·Jun 24, 2018·25 votes·10,249 views

The premise of Juggernauts is trading mobility for durability and damage.

Some mobile top laners currently get to have their cake and eat it.

42 Comments

MordepoolJun 24, 201823 votes

It's a bad trade. Since Damage is supposed to outscale Durability.

It's kinda shit since they Never account for the FACT that mobility is a better defensive steroid than anything else.

TheSingularityJun 24, 20181 votes

Used to be different. Used to be DPS>beef>burst>dps. Now it's burst pers second>beef>assassin/mage<dps beef

LordGeovanniJun 25, 20181 votes

The first one is correct the second one is Burst per second> burst>Dps (if it still exists)> CC> Low damage> Defensive base champions

LordGeovanniJun 25, 20181 votes

Damage is not supposed to outscale durability riot just has a stupid policy on that. Sole Safe ranged carries can solo melee champion because they have massive Slows not stuns or suppressions slows along with their massive damage. In my opinions Defense need to be rebalnced to another place where it spikes intead of 100 defensive stats and Ranged champions need to have less scaling on everything so they either die when melee's catch them in no time or they are forced to build real defensive items and not hybrid damage and defense than outclass real defense because their range complements it.

Sire HippingtonJun 25, 20181 votes

FACT that mobility is a better defensive steroid than **anything **else.

That's not true. Range still is an even better defenseive tool than mobillity

IcyPepperJul 4, 20181 votes

Maybe in consistency, but mobility does give powerful windows of opportunity on the offensive side of things that range can't always beat.

redniwediSJun 24, 20187 votes

It wouldn't be so bad if kiting didn't allow for perfectly maintaining distance. If a champion could perfectly run away, or perfectly chase, but not both Juggernauts would have some kind of choice in how they want to handle a fight with a ranged champion. As it stands the ranged champion has all of the choice.

IfnethJun 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It wouldn't be so bad if kiting didn't allow for perfectly maintaining distance. If a champion could perfectly run away, or perfectly chase, but not both Juggernauts would have some kind of choice in how they want to handle a fight with a ranged champion. As it stands the ranged champion has all of the choice.

Juggernauts generally have high base movespeed to compensate.

KnightOfEloHellJun 24, 20189 votes

??? Mordekaiser 325 MS Other jugs like Darius and Olaf have about 10 more MS, bit they either have some form of cc or a mobility (Olaf Q and ult, Darius's pull, Morde's w or Garens MS buff)

Meanwhile, Morde continues to have the 2nd worst base hp in the game and is as slow as a lane minion with no cc or RELIABLE NON NICHE movespeed buff)

DuskDaUmbreonJun 24, 20182 votes

Generally.

Just because Mordekaiser is slow as fuck is irrelevant. That's like saying no mage has burst because you're just looking at Malzahar.

LordGeovanniJun 25, 20181 votes

Morde's base hp isnt bad when you have an ever buffering second hp bar for 25% of your hp. Again Morde would need a massive nerf to both the damage and cooldown of his q and e if you want to give him a more reliable way to get onto people. Make use of his Movement speed buff and morde is still broken. Crying that Morde only gets to use his movement speed toward an ally is like crying that camille only gets to dash off of walls. Or lee sin that he only gets to dash if he hits an enemy or any ally is where he wants to go. You are just pointing out the condition and saying that if I dont use it its bad.

DaCurtisJun 25, 20183 votes

Crying that Morde only gets to use his movement speed toward an ally is like crying that camille only gets to dash off of walls.

Camille ALWAYS has a wall nearby, Mordekaiser doesn't have that consistent luxury, not to mention his W movespeed in extremely inconsistent the closer you are to your ally.

Morde's base hp isnt bad when you have an ever buffering second hp bar for 25% of your hp.

*25% of your DAMAGE. The 25% max health pool doesn't mean shit because you're never reaching 100% of the limit, (as you will obviously be in combat with someone taking damage). The bonus shielding you ACTUALLY get consistantly is 6.25% of your max hp, as that won't decay. So you obviously need to be in combat to get your shield off, and if you're not, well bad luck buddy, you're Mordekaiser, Riot hates your fucking base stats, so you can just get killed in 2 seconds like you were a Janna player with your 25 armor and low base health and health regen.

The trade-off isn't fair. A champion shouldn't be punished in base stats for the mechanics added in their kit, Riot wouldn't give Camille 325 movespeed because her e transcends off the fucking map with the distance it covers right? So why Mordekaiser?

LordGeovanniJun 30, 20181 votes

MordeKaiser has a shit ton of base and scaling damage on a damage type that has little options of defense against it and has very little cooldowns to gate him. Camille always having a wall near by her doesnt mean that there is always a wall near her that she can reach an ally with.

DaCurtisJul 4, 20181 votes

MordeKaiser has a shit ton of base and scaling damage

He used to. But do you even keep up with updates? When Runes Reforged was launched, everyone got their base ad buffed yeah? Everyone except Mordekaiser. So now his base damage is in line with everyone else or worse.

I made a large post with images comparing the stat changes of Mordekaiser to other bruisers. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/7ferxp/mordekaisers_base_stats_stop_leaving_him_in_the/ You can educate yourself there.

LordGeovanniJul 4, 20181 votes

Mordekaiser still has lots of base damage. DAMAGE. Morde has bad Health compared to others which is made up for in his passive that is constantly filling back up as you fight. he also has bad base armor and magic resist. But he still has tons of base DAMAGE. Not getting buffed when everyone else did doesnt change that fact. Mordekaiser should have better bases but that would require changes like longer q cooldown with less scaling and morde mains would have a fit if mordekaiser's damage was ever lessened

redniwediSJun 24, 20183 votes

If that's the case then their compensation failed pretty darn spectacularly.

IfnethJun 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If that's the case then their compensation failed pretty darn spectacularly.

But if Juggernauts could reliably close the gap, then they would be OP. Just like how assassins need to get in position or mages need to land their skillshots—take that away and you have a really scary class.

redniwediSJun 24, 20182 votes

OP? No.

As I suggested I would rather see ranged champions either able to chase or able to kite, but not be skilled at both. In this situation Juggernauts would be strong against chasers, but still weak to kiters.

In this situation if a Juggernaut is up against a kite heavy champion in a one on one fight they would be allowed the option to disengage. They would still have one hell of a time trying to get on top of the kiter, but they would have some amount of choice to their play.

Similarly chase heavy champions would make disengaging next to impossible for a Juggernaut, but the Juggernaut would have the option to turn around and fight. Since Juggernauts do rather well in fights like that they would be legitimate picks against some ranged opponents.

As it is now the ranged champion has all the choice. If they want to disengage they can, and if they want to run a Juggernaut down they can. The Juggernaut can only respond reactively, which sucks to the point that I'd suggest something like this, which would not be an easy thing for Riot to manage.

KnightOfEloHellJun 24, 20181 votes

Very true. I agree with this because when my Morde gets banned, I can choose Conqueror Olaf with exaust and ghost, and the mobility from my sells makes me virtually unbeatable.

Really tho, think about it: Permaslow on Q, ghost for stick potential if Conq is up or you keep missing Q , exaust for major stick potential and damage reduction, and a passive that makes you AA faster the less hp you have.

Pretty OP I'd say, but only OP when I maximize mobility and gapclosing

LordGeovanniJun 25, 20181 votes

This is assuming you playing in season 3 minus any assassin or you are dead before you reach anyone in a team fight and you just get kited even if its alone because even when you want to say you can perma slow most ranged champions have low cooldown slows and a dash or a movement speed boost and a dash all they have to do is make you miss an axe once and you cant catch them any more.

GigglesOJun 25, 20183 votes

Mordekaiser disagrees.

LordGeovanniJun 25, 20181 votes

Mordekaiser has a conditional movement speed boost. People dont like to mention it or try to take advantage of it.

YumaS2AstralJun 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Mordekaiser has a conditional movement speed boost. People dont like to mention it or try to take advantage of it.

Maybe becaue it is... conditional?

The moment there isn't an ally in the way of your enemy, the movement speed boost fades away.

LordGeovanniJun 30, 20181 votes

It is conditonal Then Use the condition to make the most out of the champion. Have some one engage for you and throw w so that you can engage yourself

MordepoolJun 25, 20181 votes

People also don't like to mention. It has 2 Big detractors.
The MS is Reduced unless moving directly to your Ally The MS is Reduced the closer you get to your Ally.

To all the asshats out there telling me he get 70 ms at the click of a button I say. " STFU your ignorance is showing"

LordGeovanniJun 30, 20181 votes

The point in that is That he does have mobility when people crying that he doesn't His Movement is condional Just take advantage of the condition. The condition is not always there. No he cant engage by himself that would be broken with the amount of damage it he has

DragonSheaJun 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts generally have high base movespeed to compensate.

u cerius?!

CHEWYARMSJun 24, 20181 votes

Thats a result of Champions in this game having instant turn radius speeds.

Bad design period.

KnightOfEloHellJun 24, 20185 votes

As a Morde main, this is always a big issue for me.

PopcornBunniJun 24, 20182 votes

Fighters are out tanking tanks, our assassining assassins, and out bullying lane bullies.

It's ">marksmen in 2017" all over again. They were already dominating laning phase and winning every 1v1 thorughout pre-season then they get crazy class-wide buffs while tanks become completely irrelevant due to changes to the rift that make solo snowballing all the stronger.

DuskDaUmbreonJun 24, 20181 votes

What mobile champion has better durability than a juggernaut?

Also, what would you consider to be a better alternative? Juggernauts just automatically outscaling instead? Generally, the squishy melees tend to autolose to juggernauts unless they abuse the fuck out of their mobility to not die, or unless they get fed.

ValiantKillerJun 24, 20185 votes

{quoted}

What mobile champion has better durability than a juggernaut?

Also, what would you consider to be a better alternative? Juggernauts just automatically outscaling instead? Generally, the squishy melees tend to autolose to juggernauts unless they abuse the fuck out of their mobility to not die, or unless they get fed.

Irelia Meet my W Camille Meet my passive

French CourtesanJun 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What mobile champion has better durability than a juggernaut?

Any tank.

Also, what would you consider to be a better alternative? Juggernauts just automatically outscaling instead? Generally, the squishy melees tend to autolose to juggernauts unless they abuse the fuck out of their mobility to not die, or unless they get fed.

No they dont. I can play full damage jax into darius or garen any day. Not even gona hesitate to pick it.

Romans VI XXIIIJun 25, 20181 votes

Lol, I would never consider jax a "squishy melee" seeing as he has some of the highest base stats in the game + passive MR/Armor.

French CourtesanJun 25, 20181 votes

In that case tanks are most overpowered champions in the game for having one of the highest base stats and base damage. Nice logic there. Notice how I said full damage jax?

Romans VI XXIIIJun 26, 20181 votes

lol, WRONG.

Tanks may have HIGH HP/Armor/MR. but they do not have high AD/AS/MS.

Full damage jax still has ALOT of def base stats.

French CourtesanJun 26, 20181 votes

Tanks dont have high ad. Ok buddy. Im done here.

Vlada CutJun 25, 20181 votes

Teamfights matter. And mobile champions are good for that kind of job. The only juggernaut I can think off being as good as a mobile bruiser is ugh.... Darius ?