WW ult and malz ult should be reworked

Too Ton·Dec 24, 2014·2 votes·1,638 views

Point and click suppress shouldn't exist. If they suppress you should be able to zhonyas. Maybe even rework it into a skillshot. WW lunges in a straight line for x range. First target hit will be suppressed. (Can hit a minion or be sidestepped like a vi q) Malz could be like swains circle but instead of snare it's a suppress. At least you have a chance to fight back before you are suppressed and malz ult will be very good still but reward skilled play. This could also mean now his ult is aoe but it'll be a skill shot so...

27 Comments

AtheosisXDec 24, 20147 votes

Or you can rely on your teammates to disrupt them. Or stay out of range. Or buy a QSS. Honestly proposing a nerf to Malzahar who never sees competitive play and who is the epitome of immobile is just dumb. So is proposing a nerf to the already mega-nerfed Warwick. Seriously man there are so many ways to deal with these champs.

TehNACHODec 24, 20143 votes

But he didn't say nerf, he said rework...

Granted, his ideas are really bad in the sense that, in terms of usability, they are straight up nerfs, but still. Point and click suppressions should and probably will get reworked some day in the future.

AtheosisXDec 24, 20146 votes

This notion that powerful point and click abilities are bad is just silly. Seriously people complain about every point and click ability in the damn game. If you make everything a skillshot the value of mobility only further inflates to the point that immobile champs will truly become unplayable.

Lumus AvatarDec 24, 20143 votes

Also, there has to be some variety. And you have to have some RELIABLE champs, and some lower skillcap champs where landing skillshots is not requisite of doing well so that there is a champ for every kind of player.

FHMarshyDec 24, 20142 votes

I mean, why don't we make Lulu's ult a skill shot too? or Kayle's ult? or Fiora's ult?

I mean, come on.

Learn to play before the whine please

TehNACHODec 24, 20141 votes

There's nothing wrong with point and click abilities that are just simple, like ranged AAs or Vayne's condemn.

The problem is when said point and click abilities are too game changing. WW's ult being a prime example of this just a few patches ago, for example. There's also a reason why there tends to be a lot of QQ (well there used to be, it's been dying down) about Syndra's R ability when, in all fairness, she seems relatively in line in terms of raw power otherwise, for example. These abilities have been shown time and time again, where an undodgable yet fight changing or game changing abilities are just obnoxious for others to deal with.

AtheosisXDec 25, 20141 votes

I don't see the difference between ADCs point and clicking and deleting people in a few AAs and powerful CC effects on point and click ults. Your differentiation of the two seems arbitrary to me.

TehNACHODec 25, 20141 votes

Seeing that most of the time, an ADC's auto attacks will not suppress your movements or ability casts or auto attacks and thus give you virtually no action based gameplay option aside from using that Mercurial Scimitar you bought just for them, I really don't see the difference either.

I mean, one has the potential to nuke you, the other has the potential to nuke you and completely shut down all options you can make against it. Pretty cut and dry comparison right?

AtheosisXDec 25, 20142 votes

One is always available to you, the other is on a long cooldown and can be disrupted by cc. Try again.

TehNACHODec 25, 20141 votes

One requires 30+ minutes of the game before they start actually nuking, the other gets unlocked approximately 7 minutes into the game.

If you want to make this about time, Suppression has another thing to say right about here.

AtheosisXDec 25, 20142 votes

Do you actually play Malzahar or Warwick? Neither can nuke targets as soon as their ult is available. I play Malz a lot and nearly everyone can survive his combo early unless they are low on health. The same goes for Warwick since the recent changes. You aren't killing anyone with his suppress early on. Also you are forgetting QSS. ADCs don't have to worry about a single item shutting them down now do they?

TehNACHODec 25, 20141 votes

Did you actually play WW pre nerf? Yes he can.

Also to be frank, Malzhar is capable of a lot of things if his lane bullying pays off.

AtheosisXDec 25, 20141 votes

Err...pre-nerf as in no longer the case? I'm starting to think you are touched in the head. And it's clear you don't play Malzahar.

AbyssphereDec 24, 20144 votes

I don't really agree. For starters it is tradition for suppression to be point and click: there's only 4 abilities in the game that suppress and every one is a targeted ability. For another, suppression is an ult-only mechanic. While targeted CC is frowned on in general, there's a lot more flexibility afforded to targeted CC on ults. See Lissandra: targeted stuns are considered bad for the game in general but nobody ever complains about her ult.

The balancing factor of suppression is that while it is most certainly the best crowd control in the game, it is also crowd control on the champion that does it. Malzahar and Urgot are very vulnerable while channeling their suppression and this is a major weakness in team fights (one reason why everyone says Malz has a terrible team fight). In a 1v1 dueling scenario then suppression is very scary (though really, only Malz and Warwick have frightening suppression in a 1v1 duel) but that's really something you just need to keep in mind about them. Skarner's suppression barely tickles you and Urgot's suppression's best trait is arguably disorienting the player.

Suppression is an interesting mechanic and to be honest I wouldn't be opposed to a couple more champions making use of it. It has quite different effects for the champs that have it. Warwick and Malzahar both use it to become monsters in 1v1 duels while Skarner uses it for letting his team pick people off and Urgot uses it to ... be Urgot. And honestly even with the lack of counterplay to the moves, I wouldn't consider any of them to be among the very best ults in the game. Warwick is the only suppression I can kind of consider unhealthy simply because of the lifesteal it has. The balancing factor of suppression is as I said, the fact that channeling it makes the champion using it very vulnerable. But Warwick heals so much during his that even a team collapsing on him can take a while to finish him. Compare that to a Malz who will pop instantly and Urgot/Skarner who won't take that much longer.

tl;dr: I like how suppression is currently utilised and would only point out one problem case in Warwick for compensating for the main weakness of the mechanic. Urgot's ult will probably be removed whenever he's reworked but I'd like Skarner and Malzahar to keep their ults. They feel defining to the champions but also generally fair. Even Malzahar in a 1v1 fight isn't totally unfair because for his suppression to truly be lethal he has to put his W and E on you, which gives you time to use your own CC. The CD on his ult is probably a bit low at max rank though.

Lumus AvatarDec 24, 20141 votes

Warwick's ult could probably be fixed by simply adding the line that On-Hit Effects triggered by the ult are 50% less effective than normal On-Hits. This would reduce his healing, his ridiculous damage. Then they could return some of the base damage of the ult. Doesn't Fiora's ult also trigger on-hit effects, which include her passive lifesteal and any items she has? She's a 1v1 monster, too, when considering sustain.

I 100% agree that Malzahar and Skarner are defined by their kit and would not want to see them changed. It was a big enough hit to Skarner's identity when they changed his passive. Removing his 'drag them to your team/tower' ult would just ruin him entirely for me and he's my favorite champ in the game.

AtheosisXDec 25, 20142 votes

Warwick was already fixed. And by fixed I mean neutered like a stray dog. He does not need more nerfs.

Lumus AvatarDec 25, 20141 votes

You seem to have missed the part where I said "put power back into his ult" They increased his cooldown and made his base damage a joke because he can itemize to maximize the ult. If you reduce how much you can itemize the ult, then you can put the base strength back in.

AtheosisXDec 24, 20141 votes

everyone says Malz has a terrible team fight

Everyone does not say that. His other abilities are very strong in team fights and his ult can potentially be used to shut down one target completely in a team fight with relative safety given good positioning. Totally off subject, but I have never heard anyone say Malzahar is weak in team fights.

AbyssphereDec 24, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Everyone does not say that. His other abilities are very strong in team fights and his ult can potentially be used to shut down one target completely in a team fight with relative safety given good positioning. Totally off subject, but I have never heard anyone say Malzahar is weak in team fights.

I don't think he's terribly weak in team fights either, honestly, but I've definitely seen people say he sucks in them. I guess it's hard to unleash his whole combo when he's so vulnerable during his ult.

The Fat PunisherDec 24, 20142 votes

Why? just to make it harder for malz / warwick mains?

the game doesn't need more skillshots, targeted ability champs are already mostly shit its hard enough as it is.

AtheosisXDec 25, 20142 votes

The more I think about it the more this thread annoys me. The champs that are being discussed here are not overpowered. Not even close. Their targeted suppression does ruin the day of one class in particular though, and I strongly suspect the OP plays that class: Assassins. Of course this is also the class with the most overpowered champs in it, and it needs counters to keep it even remotely healthy. Zed point and click deletes people all day, but if a champ can suppress and kill him mid-combo that's problem apparently. What a joke.

RebonackDec 25, 20142 votes

Point and click CC is the best counter for mobile champions.

And has anyone here seen someone using a Press Space Bar to Win script? It allows you to auto-dodge any skillshot thrown your way if possible.

Leti the YetiDec 24, 20141 votes

point click stuns are okay but suppressions arent alright then

Bears Dont CareDec 24, 20141 votes

Naw, they are fine as they are, seriously. Warwick himself has no tools for damage outside his Q and his R, making his R a skillshot that can be minion blocked makes an already unviable jungler, even worse.

Suppression is balanced by the fact that it is an all in ability. WW ults, he isn't escaping you. Malzahar ults, he isn't moving. Urgot ults, he's probably screwed.

You want it to be a skillshot because you feel its unfair they can point and click you, there are many champs who use skill shots who are even better than them. Look at Lucian, or Lee Sin, or Yasuo before his many nerfs.

youngjake93Dec 24, 20141 votes

Malzahar's ult is core to his kit and gives him a well-defined weakness outside of immobility and average APC range. His finishing power relies on getting 3 spells off+nearly 2 seconds of channeling. Unlike Warwick, Malzahar can't afford to stick to enemies for 2+ seconds a lot of times. Warwick is getting a rework. I read a little bit about it but the post was in April. I believe his ult might not be point and click+will be more of a way to generate stacks which will be much more powerful. So flashing/dashing will probably be viable to escape, but who knows when they will ever put that rework through.

Also, Malz isn't "weak" in teamfights" he is just vulnerable. He doesn't have the longest of ranges, you need unique positioning for your Q which is easy to dodge anyway, and he has no form of self-peel/disengage unlike almost every immobile mage.

Meep ManDec 25, 20141 votes

Warwick? To an extent sure, because whenever a new on-hit item is released the ultimate will have to be slightly tuned down if it synergizes with Warwick.

Malzahar? No. His ultimate is point and click, but is channeled. Great 1v1, but situationally powerful in teamfights.

BardsbardJan 6, 20151 votes

even if you stop WW ult you would still take its damage even if he does not finish channel and with malz its already too late by the time they help you