I feel that Reworks are pretty sad, especially for people that main those champions

taleofsonata··68 votes·5,742 views

There was a Sion Main that played tons of the old sion games, he was pretty entertaining on Twitch but now he is gone after trying to adapt to the new Sion, same goes to the Korean Poppy main, now it's Shaco times, Shaclone looks pretty sad playing the PBE Shaco and he knows that he can't do anything about it, I think the same thing will happen to Faker, when he is going to try the New Leblanc. The big reason is because the reworks doesn't do what the old champions do. Old Sion is Like a Olaf on steroids, that would go full crit lifesteal and have a shit tons of health. Poppy was played like a Diver Assassin, Trinity force crit + phantom dancer,

Alot of people especially MAINS, don't like the reworks, it's like hitting someone right in their chest. I know that Riot does some feedback and talk with the community but the problem is, the voice of the people that don't actually play those champions have a bigger impact on Riot than Mains. If I were to ask riot to sit down and talk with the community, I would bring out XXX champions Mains and talk together, instead of bringing anyone else such as Haters(people who dislike the design or those champions) and people who just started playing leagues and want to change it.

You might lose the minority of the people, but let me tell you this riot, those MAINS were entertaining and always brought new lifes to the Games, when I play Shaco AP top people would say in all chat " stop copying Pinkwards" or when I would play Leblanc and stomp the enemies team people would say "Is that faker?"

I enjoy the current Leblanc, I love playing her, I play her to stomp my lane and dominate the game, IDC if I lose the game or she has a low winrate, I enjoy playing her for that reason. But I know its not gonna last forever, I enjoy the PBE Leblanc in a way but why would I play her if Ahri does the same thing as the Old Leblanc?

You guys reverted Kog Maw Rework because there was a Reason, if during the following month there is a Reason to Revert Leblanc Rework, will you guys do it? Make sure to Save that current Leblanc AP ratio, Base Damage in a folder then put it back on lives server if she either do something that the rework was not suppose to aim such as " Tank Leblanc".

But there are reworks that are acceptable by Mains and the community, Heimerdinger, Talon, why these 2? Because they do the same thing as the old ones but more, they added more damages, more options, same old roles. For me a successful rework, is adding stuff to the old kit that synergize together and revive the champion. Revitalize their kit, sort of a Rebirth. I'm a Heimerdinger Main too, the only thing I missed about the old heimerdinger is probably his W homing missiles, but I still love the new W becauses, He throws more rockets, he has an upgraded R,W his W can split making it undodgeable and it does more damage.

I'm not just talking about Leblanc, I'm talking about all the upcoming reworks.

168 Comments

Woodakoodashooda63 votes

Leblanc, in her current state, is a wholly toxic champion. I get that her combo is "difficult" to master, but once you do she is totally anti fun to fight. You need a combination of hard CC, perfect timing, and AoE damage to kill her. She is among the safest assassins in game and can almost instantly kill just about any champion in the game. She is a perfect example of why assassins need changed.

Feel free to down vote me now.

Decrit14 votes

Actuall many Leb players got excited by her update since it allows much more combos and more control over her illusion.

Poske1 votes

Le bl already had 30 core combos. I doubt the number ll increase

Decrit7 votes

The ult now does not reply anymore the last spell cast but acts more like Heimer' s ult. This means you can cast immediately an empowered spell followed by wathever needed.

Also you can ult your own ult. Yo dawg.

Only Play Darius1 votes

But that forced delay on her mark really slows down her time to kill and her instant 100-0 is what she was best known for

Decrit10 votes

That burst is what she is infamously been known for.

Aniway, i am not a leb player, but apparently even without sigil she can still deal quite a lot of damage and proccing it once does not seem an hard task, given the mobility she has access to and the fact she is a ranged spellcaster. It' s an AP ratio less, but if she is fed or if the enemy is low it doe snot seem impossible for her to execute. P robably on any other melee assassin the sigil would be the damnation, less on leb tho.

Quepha33 votes

Some people may be upset that a champion they like is changing but the benefits for the rest of the current playerbase as well as future players far outweighs that.

Assassins are getting reworked because that entire class of champions can simply make the game no fun at all, Sion got reworked because his kit was incredibly outdated and it was causing Sion players to dwindle down to virtually nothing. In the case of Sion you can't leave him in that awful state just because there's still one or two people that play him for hipster points and in the case of Assassins you can't let one class of champions be so influential on the game that an assassin pick almost always invalidates the other 9 players as they either snowball into 1v5 machines or screw up their combo and fall behind to become dead weight in a 4v5 that turns into a slow but sure loss.

Elikain5 votes

Exactly. I don't like how certain champion mains or OTP's think the update or a rework should solely reflect their own vision of their champion. I'm not naming anyone but i feel like this is the expectation behind the reworks and updates for some people in the community, instead of actually looking forward to healthier gameplay, fair balance directions, kit freshness and fun factor (as playing with or against the champion).

That's not to say that some people don't have good ideas for a champion update or rework.

Leon Etoile8 votes

I have hated remork Malz.

He used to be very high risk (you misposition your dead) but had the damage to blow people up. You used to have multiple build paths based on situation.

Now you are super safe, no damage until later and you are stuck in limited build options (you have to buy Rylai's for your minions to stick or you do 0 damage).

MrWasjig3 votes

Not to mention the fact he is extremely reliant on Voildings for damage has made him very unreliable. So much damage is put into them the rest of his spells are just garbage in comparison to pre-rework Malz.

Old Malz had a good use for all of his spells (W not withstanding), and they all felt useful. Heck even his old passive had some use in laning, if not much but a little nonetheless.

Now all of his abilities feel like a crutch to hold up his new W, you need E to mark what you want the Voidlings to kill. You need Q to extend the now garbage duration of E so your Voidlings keep attacking it (at the very least they kept the Q's Silence), and now his ult does %MaxHP damage it's only practical use it just to hold someone in place so your fucking Voidlings can attack them! See the pattern here? Point is there's far too much power in his new W. And let's not get started on his new Passive, a nice change but an awkward thing to balance. While it's okay at the moment, we have to wonder what issues that passive might cause later down the line when other stuff is changed.

Leon Etoile2 votes

The upcoming rework on Rylai's can ruin him due to all his power being in his W.

The worst part of his power being in his W; you max it last...

BastionKross7 votes

A lot of players bitch and moan when their main gets nerfed.

I mained old Sion; Riot literally deleted my champion from the game and replaced it with a completely new champ that just happens to have the same name.

So the next time your Main loses ten damage on their E or their base MS goes down, just be glad that at the end of the day, your champion still exists. Some of us don't have that luxury any more.

Jorencice2 votes

Hes better now.

Old sion was bullshit. And utter cancer.

He either literally 1 shot people as AP with a point and click nuke stun. While being tanky as fuck.

Or tanked 5 people as AD due to haveing 150% lifesteal 2.5 AS AND being tanky as fuck.. basically he was what aatrox wishes he was.

Hell i once tanked both nexus turrets and killed them by myself with no minions. Had 100% life still when the 2nd tower died.

BastionKross2 votes

Old sion was bullshit. And utter cancer.

I don't refute that. What I am saying is that it feels absolutely horrible to have your main champion vanish from the game. Not nerfed, not class updated, not out of the meta for a few months, just gone.

I can't play my favorite champion anymore, ever again. And that's a terrible feeling.

Although just to prevent revisionist history, I will say that no matter how bullshit old Sion was, it's not like he was a huge problem. His playrate was so low that you'd be hard pressed to even see a Sion let alone be traumatized by a good one. I understand that made him a prime candidate from a rework, but let's not pretend that he was anywhere close to something like season 3 Kassadin where you had to ban him or risk being tempted to kill yourself with a rusty spoon.

Jorencice1 votes

Did they really delete him though?

OLd sions passive might as well have not existed. So that being replaced shouldnt matter.

His Q went from a point and click stun to a healthier 5 man aoe stun - so its still a stun same thing.

His w is still a shield. Less health gain and damage but still a shield.

His E shit old sions E was so worthless i cant even remember what it did. SO replacing it shouldnt matter. AHHHHH IT WAS PASSIVE DAMAGE. REmemebred.

And his R was also a random passive you would press and forget about.

So really the only thing you should care about missing is the point and click stun.

Other than that he lost 4 passives. MUH IDENTITY.

BastionKross2 votes

OLd sions passive might as well have not existed.

The old passive is arguably better than the new one, because the old passive actually achieved something. Unless you're facing doom bots, then you get to use it without getting slowed and kited. Sion's passive is supposed to be this "taking you with me" moment that matches his lore. Instead, it just means that someone with a rylais has to throw one extra spell your way. The old passive was horribly uninteractive and boring, but it did it's job. You can't say that about the new passive a fair bit of the time.

His Q went from a point and click stun to a healthier 5 man aoe stun - so its still a stun same thing.

A point and click stun with a .9 AP ratio vs a heavily delayed, easily dodgable AoE stun with a maximum of 1.17 AD ratio. I know which one I'd rather have, especially when it comes to all the mobility League has nowadays. Give me that point and click 100% reliable stun to shut down Leblanc and Yasuo anyway. Just because they're both stuns does not mean they are in anyway similar or applied in a similar way. Old Taric Q was more comparable.

His w is still a shield. Less health gain and damage but still a shield.

Again, .9 AP ratio, nearly doubled his HP, and you could pop it after 1.5 seconds. Current Sion W has a piddling shield until late game, requires 3 seconds to pop, and has a .4 AP ratio with %max HP damage. While I do appreciate the %HP damage the new one has, it loses to the old one in every other category. If you ever tried to pop old Sion's shield, you had to do a lot of damage quickly or he'd detonate it right into your face. The new Sion shield is much less reliable.

Hell, I could make the argument that Janna's E and Sion's W are much the same because they're both a shield. That wouldn't be true though, because there's more that makes them different than what makes them the same. That's the same case with old and new Sion's Q and W.

His E shit old sions E was so worthless i cant even remember what it did. SO replacing it shouldnt matter. AHHHHH IT WAS PASSIVE DAMAGE. REmemebred.

Yep, it was a toggle that added an amount of damage to every auto attack while also costing HP every time you AA. Similar to Aatrox. The E was completely changed. It's more interactive now, but also less reliable. I think we can see a pattern starting to develop at this point. Riot severely reduced the reliability of Sion's abilities in order to promote counterplay and interactivity. This was a healthy thing.

However, they gave Sion far too much counterplay, while simultaneously not giving him enough in return to make up for what he lost.

And his R was also a random passive you would press and forget about.

It was far more reliable and uninteractive than the new ult (the pattern continues), in which the new ult also has so much counterplay it's less a show of skill when you land one and more of a mistake on your opponents end. (Seriously, does he really need a global noise and to steer like a drunk driver on ice at the same time?)

So really the only thing you should care about missing is the point and click stun.

He lost reliability. If an ability isn't reliable, it can deal 4000 damage at level 3 and still be considered underwhelming. Old Sion took no risks. New Sion takes all the risks. There was a happy medium there that wasn't capitalized on. Sion needed counterplay, but he sure as hell didn't need as much as he got saddled with.

Other than that he lost 4 passives. MUH IDENTITY.

Yeah, it's not like lots of newer champs have three or more passives in addition to four actives. Sion's kit was boring and uninteractive, but also functional and not overloaded by any stretch of the imagination. I would argue that a simple, boring kit filled with passives is far healthier than an overloaded one filled with both actives and passives. More boring to watch and play as for most people, but much easier to balance.

JedenVojak2 votes

{quoted}

However, they gave Sion far too much counterplay, while simultaneously not giving him enough in return to make up for what he lost ... If an ability isn't reliable, it can deal 4000 damage at level 3 and still be considered underwhelming. Old Sion took no risks. New Sion takes all the risks. There was a happy medium there that wasn't capitalized on. Sion needed counterplay, but he sure as hell didn't need as much as he got saddled with.

I just want to say, I love you.

Mordepool6 votes

Yeah it's a hard fact to come to terms with even when they do the Rework correctly and talk to the mains. Some champs never get that lucky

gileskd5 votes

item 3073 item 3070 Taric item 3070 item 3073

Saianna4 votes

I know that Riot does some feedback and talk with the community

Hmmm when...

When Cassio was reworked? No feedback whatsoever there. Kog'Maw? Took them whole season to understand how hard they fucked up.

Sherogarth3 votes

Something that i noticed is that Riot usually picks one (core in thier opinion) theme for reworked champion and goes all in on it. The problem with this is it's either hit or miss and sometimes Riot even picks some strange theme to rework around.

Examples of quite good themes: Sion - undead juggernaut Poppy - stubborn yordle with important mission Garen - bringing justice to villains Ryze - combo mage Katarina - pentakill machine

But then there are reworks where they missed this main theme: Skarner - Cristal Scar (how can this even be a theme?) Cassiopeia - poison fuelled machine gun (Wat?) Mordekaiser - not even sure if they picked any theme for this rework Taric - protector/stars (Old taric screamed PALADIN and GEMS theme but no, lets make him even more boring then pre-rework version)

I can agree that Shaco lacks this main theme in his rework and he feels quite off. But Deciver theme works really good for Leblanc - in fact this is what she was supposed to be but Riot lacked tools to make it work so they pumped tones of burst to make her viable.

Xeynid3 votes

Katarina is about the only reason I've kept playing this game. I love her kit, though I didn't really start playing her until after the previous rework.

I love the new katarina. Shunpo is the best ability in the game and getting to spam it is awesome.

But I can't help but feel sad that katarina, as she currently exists, will never be usable again.

A Liberal2 votes

Have you played her on PBE? She's my second most played champion, and I'm worried about the rework because it looks so different from her current kit.

Xeynid2 votes

Yeah, I have. I haven't gotten to play PvP with her since everybody's on her dick and I haven't had the time to just fish for a game to play as her, but the way her kit plays on the PBE is super fun.

Elikain3 votes

I played her. Her kit really isn't that much different. Her daggers are her bread and butter as stepping over them uses her Sinister Steel that's now a part of her passive as well.

She really has good shumpo speed and mechanics, good waveclear and she can really dart around the battlefield if she manages her daggers correctly. Basically, i always wanted to get into playing Katarina but her ridiculous micromanagement completely broke her for me (before the Update). Now she is actually very good and even better for skilled Katarina players.

Shadragon3 votes

I think Riot should be more open to reverting reworks. It's one thing to have your favorite champion reworked into something radically different that you don't like but was otherwise successful (Like Sion or Poppy for instance). It's another thing to have your favorite champion reworked into something that is less satisfying to play, less healthy for the game, and less interesting than before (Like KogMaw, Malzahar, the many iterations of Skarner, Mordekaiser, etc.)

When a newly reworked champion starts to encounter issues, the very first question that should be asked is "If we reverted them to their previous state, would that put them in a healthier spot than they are now?" Obviously the answer will usually be no, but KogMaw is proof that sometimes you can save the playerbase a season of suffering and the balancing team a yearlong headache by just reverting the rework. All it takes is a simple "Well that didn't go as planned, so for the time being we're going to revert the changes to [champion] while we think of other ways to address their issues. Thank you for your patience." and then suddenly BOOM problem solved.

dunkeroni2 votes

It seems to me that most of the Shaco mains are excited about the changes. Particularly those who built AP, and those who were annoyed by Pink Wards.

AmazingStormm13 votes

We were excited till we got the specifics of his abilities. 1.5s of stealth lvl 1, E does 5 base damage at lvl 1, and gutted most his scalings, removed a passive, and this is just the start of how much they fucked up.

Decrit5 votes

I'd say to chill honestly. Remember that PBE is not for strict balance, if the raw numbers are too low is easy for them to tune up in case.

What it matters is that the gameplay mechanics flow good enough.

Besides, the invisibility nerf is spot on. Now shaco has no more pinks to deal with but at the same time the invisibility must cover a precise function in a precise time, and lasting invisibility is more for mid game than early.

AmazingStormm3 votes

You think that nerfing his stealth is spot on?

Twitch's Ambush lvl 1 his Q grants him stealth for 10s plus he gains MS and AS and it reset after a kill or assist and cost no mana, and at max rank he can be stealthed for 16s. Shaco can only be stealthed for 4.5s max rank, on live servers now shaco has a flat stealth time at 3.5.

Do you understand how short 1.5s is? They only way to do anything with him now in the early game is to farm.

Decrit3 votes

Now, i am not a shaco main, but i know this:

  1. twitch has no invisibility, but he has camou%%%e

  2. being able to cross a whole lane while invisibile on a spell that is supposed to give a warning is bullshit.

Now, i get that it is a nerf, but at least on this aspect it is a deserved one. You say on pbe it is short, but on the other hand do you know how much friggin long it is 3.5 early game?! They lowered it to restrict the best case scenarios but increased duration by rank so leveling it up allows shaco more options the more the game unfolds, which honestly is what an assassin like shaco should get from this. Maybe a 1s increase does not compensate enough, but at least is more fair.

And I want the update to be succesfull, because this recent change makes me like him more so i want to add him to my champion pool.

TequilaZombie6 votes

Unless they compensate A LOT with his numbers, the Q duration is the killing blow at Shaco. His early ganks are shat uppon, his early clear is pretty bad and his 1v1 potential pre 6 has been ruined. What was left? Farming and counter jungling. Now, if you're ever caught in the jungle, you're MUCH more likely to die due to the 1.5 sec stealth. Unless you, for some reason, decides to max Q first. But that is 80 extra damage added at 5 ranks, while E gives 125. Both are shitty, but E is still 50% stronger than Q.

Decrit1 votes

Then again give them time to fix that. They can:

  1. let the invisibility scale on shaco level and not spell rank
  2. increase damage for champion-killing purposes
  3. increase damage for jungle clear purposes
  4. increase both

This without directly changing the invis duration paradigm. Remember that invisibility now can' t be hard countered, so it has to be shorter since it is much stronger than before, Akali is somehow in the same ball park regarding invisibility, and Riot might need some shots to get it right.

Or maybe due to ambiental changes and style changes shaco will be good aniway. Who knows?

TequilaZombie3 votes

Invisibility doesn't need to be shorter, the champion need to be balanced around that. Those are two completely different things. Vayne and Kha's stealths are short because they can both use it multiple times and it serves as a breathing room during a fight so they can reposition and wait for CDs.

Shaco's stealth is his engage/escape, not a combat mechanic. I'm not saying that having it scale from 1.5s to 4.5s is inherently bad, I'm saying it has been the nail to the coffin given the context of his nerf "rework".

Sightless667 votes

being able to cross a whole lane while invisibile on a spell that is supposed to give a warning is bullshit.

Maybe so, but it's also the primary thing that made him good. It was by far his most important mechanic. If he's going to lose that for a significant portion of the game, he has to have a mechanic introduced that makes up for it. Right now, I don't think they've done that. I don't think they've come anywhere close.

He doesn't feel like he has any options until level 7 with a Q max at the earliest, at which point he's basically like an unsnowballed Shaco who Q maxed on live: Pathethic and still lacking the tools to eke out an advantage. Q isn't a good fighting tool. Having to max it doesn't work well, because it locks you into an incredibly predictable, incredibly simple playstyle until you can finally start maxing out the other skills. Regardless of the numbers, it's not fun, but it's your only choice because having the E without any Q duration is even more laughably bad. It can't come anywhere close to comparing to live, where the E max gives you a ton of flexiblity in how to approach problems. Specifically, it lets you use the invisibility for repositioning instead of just for jumping on someone. Having all of the damage loaded into your Q doesn't let you do that. If you don't jump someone with the Q, you're going to lose the fight. It makes you incredibly predictable until you have the E and the Q both maxed out, but of course, that's the point where you're falling off like a brick and you're out of options because there's no way you got fed with such a terrible kit.

They've taken away the ability to gank early and to have an E max in an effort to prevent snowballing, but in doing so, they haven't supported any different playstyles that can actually offer real gameplay. Basically, it feels like your best option is "pray you get fed early somehow despite not having any tools to make it happen", and if that failed, then you're going to regret playing Shaco because you almost as few midgame options as you have in the early game.

I doubt numbers changes can actually make the new changes compelling to play with. So far, it's been dull even in the games I've stomped in. In my experience, that's indicative of mediocre design. I think Riot put too much effort into preventing Shaco from being annoying, without really considering what should replace the playstyle they took away.

Decrit2 votes

Honestly i don't think that having so much invisibility is a mechanic by itself. Sure it gave opportunities, but if you have a spell that is supposed to give counterplay and you play it by having none then it does not matter how much you perceive it as good, something has to go.

You say they did not add any mechanics ti replace that. I say that:

  1. boxes can be placed while invisible
  2. invisibility is no more detected by pink wards
  3. the ult changes

And the scaling missing hp damage on dagger, but i don't consider it as a mechanic.

I don't know how you value these, but it seems to me that they indeed added something mechanically to the champion.

Sightless667 votes

Honestly i don't think that having so much invisibility is a mechanic by itself.

Given that having so much invisibility so easily accessible was by far the most important part of his kit, I'm willing to call it a mechanic.

something has to go.

Sure, and something has to replace it. Nothing good did. He was reliant on a playstyle that came from having access to high duration mobility combined with the flesiblity of being able to max out his E. If he's going to lose that, he has to get a new playstyle. The only thing he's being offered is "farm until at least 7 because your ganks suck without invisibility, then keep farming because your ganks suck without the E maxed, then lose because you're level 10+ and now you're an unfed midgame Shaco".

Seriously, I understand how annoying Shaco is. I hate him. I don't like playing against him. I want to see him changed. However, that doesn't change the fact that he's incredibly reliant on his current playstyle, and just ripping it away from his doesn't fix his problems. If we're taking way the most important part of his kit, then we can't just replace it with gimmicky, pointless bullshit. If we do that, then what's the incentive to play him? What the hell are his players supposed to be doing now?

Actually, I already know the answer to that question. What they're supposed to do now is play someone who isn't Shaco. They'll be better at early ganking, midgame ganking, split pushing, and teamfighting. It's the perfect solution!

You say they did not add any mechanics ti replace that. I say that:

From my experience playing with the new Shaco and playing against him, I can say with complete confidence that none of these changes help anywhere near enough, and I will tell you why.

  1. boxes can be placed while invisible

This mechanic is pointless, and I can explain why. It reveals you and the box when you place it, then recloaks you. That means they know you're there, they know where you are, and they know where the box is. It does nothing for you. The only reason it exists is because they're forcing you to max the Q, and this allows you to drop a box while still using the Q for damage. Of course, it's still less damage than you have on live with the E max, and it forces you into a much more predictable pattern (because you MUST autoattack them from stealth or you are guaranteed to do almost nothing), so you're still weaker regardless.

  1. invisibility is no more detected by pink wards

Not that big of a help. Shaco's biggest strength in ganking was the ability to ignore pink wards by teleporting from places that they couldn't possibly cover. That was pretty much his defining trait. I honestly can't remember the last time a pink ward stopped a Shaco gank. While this is slightly helpful in lategame fights, it's ultimately very minor given how much of an early game reliance you still have.

Other assassins benefit from this change much more than Shaco does. His competition thrives off of this. He likes it, but less than them by a pretty notable margin. Kha'zix is far more excited than Shaco is about this stuff.

  1. the ult changes

It adds a small amount of delayed CC to the ultimate that never fools anyone anyway. Not very good. People can still ping me to see which Shaco is the real one after I split, so I'm still not tricking anyone. It doesn't do anything significant for making my late game less shitty.

And the scaling missing hp damage on dagger, but i don't consider it as a mechanic.

This is a very, very neutral change when considered with the other dagger changes. The base damage is down, the bonus AD ratio was decreased and shifted to a total AD ratio, and the missing health ratio was added. It represents slightly more damage at level 1, and then significantly less damage as you level up, particularly with AD-focused builds. As a rule of thumb, with a full build, the enemy has to be missing about 1,200 - 1,600 health to make up for the damage you lose out on.

Of course, this does mot take into account that the E damage can no longer be enhanced by shaco's passive. With that accounted for, E generally hurts less.

AmazingStormm1 votes

But 3.5s in stealth also cost 90 mana at lvl 1 and at lvl 2 he only has around 330.7 mana. Maxing it first it just for the stealth time tbh it does very little damage. On live servers now they're is already counter play to his early game which, is how much each ability cost in mana. Now I understand keeping his Q at 3.5s in stealth and lowering the mana cost would be a huge buff, But what happened was all they did was lower the mana cost for it. Statistically at every rank it does less damage, cost less mana, increased its cd, and only at max rank do you see the benefit from it.

Also 1.5s is barely going from mid lane brush to the middle of the lane.

Decrit1 votes

And again those can be adjusted by tuning.

Regarding the travel pace of the q, i think it can be restrective from an old shaco user but honestly how many champions give that much opportunity? And remember shaco can gank from many different angles without notice.

If it is too few they can add back some, like 0.5, but the live duration is absurd considering it is integrated on a blink.

Mana cost is alright tho. It is one of the best disengages on the whole game and if unchecked can drive crazy a lot of champions.

AmazingStormm2 votes

Quite a few champions can do that just without stealth, But the whole point is that his Q was 1/3 or half his damage now it is far less.

I understand 3.5s is pretty long but the cd does not start till he comes out of stealth, in which case the enemy basically destroys him in the 11s window in which he is basically running for his life, or in my case just suicide for the adc and go 1 for 1.

As a shaco main, I know it's a great disengage but LB, kha'zix, zed, akali, udyr, quinn etc have it much better because his stealth doesn't give him MS, and most go with mobis so its still on cd so its pretty easy to chase him down. But again thats just me.

Decrit1 votes

At least on the champions you listed you know the direction on which the champion is disengaging, and on top of that it adds invisibility.

Also, if i remember correctly it gets reduced CD if you attack a champion with it. Can you confirm? I could not get behind all the PBE changes and i can't check it now.

Sightless663 votes

Also, if i remember correctly it gets reduced CD if you attack a champion with it.

The cooldown of the Q is increased by 3 seconds and is reduced by 2.5 if you attack a champion with it.

Snowplosion2 votes

The thing about those champions in that the have broken kits (broken == op). And the tow if part of there kits is what draw people to them. LB is a good example because people play here just so they can blow people away up. The thing is that's the only way LB can be impactful in a game is if she can blow something up. It feels bad for the people who play the champs, but it feels some much better to play against.

Ràinbow2 votes

I still remember you, baby. </3 Fiora

Wind Whistler2 votes

There was a Sion Main that played tons of the old sion games

Are you referring to Poopbutt101, or is it somebody else?

Also, yeah, it's sad when someone gets reworked. I got mastery 7 on Yorick and everything, but now I wish I could just remove him from my champion roster. I cried a fair amount when they reworked him...

Virgin Ray1 votes

I think riot wanted was that It was supposed to make them fun and interesting, they felt like they were bland and super straight forward. Maybe they want to make them harder to main? I don't know though. I don't main assassins, but I guess this will force assassin mains to rewire their gameplay they've been building up for years.

Akali is SO HOT15 votes

Well they've basically straight up nerfed Akali and Shaco and added some lame gimmicks to their kits that aren't necessary so I wouldn't really call that making them fun and interesting. For the other reworks maybe, but not these two.

AmazingStormm4 votes

Shaco has an ability that does 5 base damage at lvl 1, goes into stealth for 1.5s lvl 1 and has shitty ad and ap scalings. sorry if i came off as an ass but you cant rewire shaco on the pbe when he is now the worst jungler pre 6.

Avios11 votes

... with a 4.5 stealth at lvl 5 rank. seems pretty good to me.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

Kind of. It's about balancing power and the thought that Shaco's power balance is currently warped.

Now Old!Shaco did a few things, but the important 2: have a 3.5 second invisibility at level 1 and insane out from invisibility damage burst with his E. This was unhealthy so over time Shacos damage was nerfed and he's been sitting like that for awhile. If he gets fed it can be kind of unhealthy but to get fed a Shaco player needs to play a lot of mind games.

Now comes the rework. Riot, perhaps rightly, decided that the huge invisibility and his current burst were too much and the potential for his getting fed were off so they decided to work on him.

However, in doing so they gave Shaco players a catch-22 of sorts. They either have to invest all their early skill points into invisibility to approach their prior invisibility time to set up useful ganks, at the cost of a lot of their early damage, or, they can focus on their early damage but to get it they no longer have anything approaching their prior gank potential.

Both options just leave Shaco players feeling weak, like they got a rather hefty nerf. And while Shaco was a bit unfair against new players, at mid to higher level play Shaco already was fairly balanced. Maybe a little overtuned but not overbearing. So now he's just in this limbo where to make him more fair for lower level play he can't really do anything well. If he chooses to try and set up good ganks by maxing Q first his actual ganks do pitiful damage. If he tries to have his damage maxed by putting points in E his method of ganking is no longer possible.

Now in fairness, his late game is improved, in theory, but it's going to be a monumental task as Shaco to get to a competitive late game build in his current state.

Now, Riot may fix this. But, we can only comment on what is currently happening and hope they hear us and change around his numbers.

More from Gameplay

More by taleofsonata