"Graves has an unreliable early-game, so we buffed him" Meanwhile, Shaco?

ChickenWrap··1 votes·763 views

Shaco is a feast-or-famine assassin whose abilities by themselves deal absolutely zero damage. He scales entirely with items, but he needs to get those items fast (through lots of early-game gold) or he'll fall behind.

But he can't get those items or that gold without killing people.

But he doesn't deal any damage in the early game.

Because he can't deal damage until he gets items

Which require gold.

But he can't get gold... -- you get the idea.

All other assassins in this game don't have that problem. They have good base damages and superior tools to kill enemies in the early stages of the game, so why does Shaco have to suffer through that until everyone is full build? I think a tiny bit of early-game power buffing so that Shaco is actually a threat to his enemies would be more than reasonable, given that he can't stealth into a lane and attack anyone before his stealth timer runs out early on and that his boxes take too long to arm with the low level stealth timer.

17 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

I think the main reason they can't buff him too hard is his stealth and his splitpush ability. If they buff his base stats too much, then there's even less you can do against a split pushing Shaco while he becomes even better at doing that.

ChickenWrap1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LAXTnYay,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-10T20:25:51.165+0000)

I think the main reason they can't buff him too hard is his stealth and his splitpush ability. If they buff his base stats too much, then there's even less you can do against a split pushing Shaco while he becomes even better at doing that.

Add a base damage ratio to his Q and he'll be fine.

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

The problem is nobody but Shaco mains wants Shaco to be viable.

Think how it feels to play against Veigar once he has a Rabadon's. Think how it feels to fight Heimer as an immobile melee. Think how it feels to fight Tryndamere.

Him being viable creates that feeling instantly. Of you not being able to do jack shit against him.

That's how Shaco feels. He's annoying, feels unkillable, and is just obnoxious.

ChickenWrap1 votes

Shaco's entire thing is deception. Good players will kill Shaco and Shaco will generally die when he goes in for an assassination, because unlike Kayn or Kha, after he goes in, he has to use all his long-CD abilities plus his ultimate and then he has no way back out. His W won't help, he's just got his Q, E, some autos, and an R and to hope that the enemy doesn't dash away when he attacks them (because then he'll just get kited until he dies).

Whisper871 votes

Maybe they can just buff his clear speed to that if he can't gank successfully early he can farm fairly well.

That way if you avoid his ganks for a bit early on, his window before he falls too far behind is a little bigger.

ChickenWrap1 votes

Shaco doesn't need buffed clear speed, it's fine as it is. Annoying if enemies break his boxes early, but he's fine.

Problem is that he can't gank successfully until he's level 4 and even then when he ganks he deals no damage, but he can't gank prior to that simply because his Q runs out before he gets to the lane.

Whisper871 votes

But he can Q from Tri brush and from river brush and lane brush. I know that good warding counters that, but that counters all ganks.

I think with Shaco the idea is that if you can't gank lanes you start counterjungling and trying to kill enemy in their own jungle.

ChickenWrap1 votes

Shaco's rank 1 Q lasts 1.5 seconds. He won't even make it halfway to the lane.

Shaco has no damage to kill enemy Junglers early-on either.

Kaìju1 votes

My Shaco main friend would disagree that he does no damage. Watching him go 15/5 says otherwise.

ChickenWrap1 votes

Anyone can do that. I've mained Shaco for 8 years and I can do that.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have an incredibly weak and unreliable early-game though. Shaco is a feast or famine champion without the proper tools to allow him to feast

Gold > Damage > Kills > Gold

But Shaco has a rough time getting the gold he needs until around the 30 minute mark to put him on par with other assassins that do the same thing.

Kaìju1 votes

I can count on one hand the number of times he hasn't gotten to feast. And what is you comparison to how bad he is? Is he has feast or famine as Kindred? Or what about the fact that he has tools others don't, like blocking skillshots with boxes or avoiding damage with R to not even be on the map. Because those are pretty powerful tools that take up a lot of his power budget.

ChickenWrap1 votes

That doesn't seem right. What Elo is he and what kind of players is he against where he gets fed before he has some iterms?

Shaco is feast or famine like "he doesnt do anything withoit items to give him damage but he'll still reach full build evebtually".

Those don't take up too much of his power budget. Fizz can avoid all spells too and look at hum.

Riot took his damage and moved it all to the end of the game instead of having him be good throughout, like other assassins, and that was a mistake.

Kaìju1 votes

When we play normals with all of us, we play layers from mid silver to high plat since we have a wide range of ranks. He gets fed even if the enemy has someone in high plat where our Yasuo main friend is. Shaco himself is like high silver because he cares more about school than League. He doesn't even play the game much right now and every game back is just watching him stomp.

Also I don't mean dodge shit with boxes, I mean block. I have seen him block Morgs snare on people with a box, or an Ezreal Q with Tri. Spells that will really hurt if they land. Fizz can't do that.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Umm he is a early game power House ganker

ChickenWrap1 votes

What is this, Season 2? No he's not. Not anymore. He deals no damage and he doesn't have a long stealth period anymore.

Filthy Rank1 votes

Shaco is pretty strong you just need to play him more or just stop playing him

ChickenWrap1 votes

I've been playing him for eight years. His strength at the post-40 minute mark has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. He has been my main ever since 2010, and I can promise to you that I spend so much time thinking and theorycrafting about this guy that at the start of every season, my builds are the ones that Shaco mains end up using first. I peaked at my Masters promos last season before I stopped playing League as much and slowly began to fall, so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to Shaco and his horrible pattern of

Needs damage to get kills Needs kills to get gold Needs gold to do damage Can't do damage because no gold because no kills because no damage.

His early-game is awful against decent players and he's pretty much the weakest 1v1 assassin out there until he has most of his build, which is late in the game, because he's an assassin with 0 base ratios and AD scaling on one single ability.

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