@Riot Meddler and @Reav3 Karma Low Everything

Winterkill·Jun 17, 2017·29 votes·1,491 views

Her play rate, win rate, win rate as a mage, and win rate as a support are lower than anyone else in the role. You nerfed the only thing she had going for her, even if the real mains didn't want her to be a shield bot. What is Karma's current state now? Where she was 4 years ago with a half worked on kit, theme, visual update and terrible rework.

You talk about not defining champions with items but you do that with Karma and shield enhancing items. If you know the community liked her more as a mage and not a number buffed shield bot, why are you considering another Ryze rework before her? Heck before anyone else. She's in a terrible state now and everyone can see it now. You take away the only thing making her meta and is left with a crappy worked on kit and theme that the Developers haven't cared about for four years now.

Do you care about Karma?

34 Comments

ShirvallahJun 18, 201710 votes

Where have they mentioned another potential Ryze rework? Just curious.

Though, I do agree Karma needs to be reworked before someone like Ryze or Rengar. We Karma mains just keep getting smacked around like ping pong balls. "SHE'S A MAGE!" "SHE'S A SUPPORTIVE MAGE!" "SHE'S A SUPPORT!" "SHE'S A SHIELD BOT!" "SHE'S............DONEZO!"

Tobias BracknerJun 18, 20172 votes

Sounds like Karma mains are garbage at Karma. At the end of the day she's a hyper aggressive support who wants to bully and facilitate frequent fights and aggression.

ShirvallahJun 18, 201712 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L3ciz0AZ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-18T06:07:38.042+0000)

Sounds like Karma mains are garbage at Karma. At the end of the day she's a hyper aggressive support who wants to bully and facilitate frequent fights and aggression.

Yep, guess we must all be garbage at Karma, then. Seems accurate, my good sir. That's clearly the issue here.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Tobias BracknerJun 18, 20171 votes

Thanks for agreeing with me! [slayer-jinx-catface]

NautodayJun 19, 20171 votes

Elo matches up.

SilverSquidJun 18, 20179 votes

Exactly. They removed what was special/interesting about her and buffed her into relevancy. Our complaints were ignored, because "she was fine" then. Now that they removed her overbuffed values people should finally see what she is;

A failed rework and a bag of missed potential. She could've been so much more. She could be so much more.

Maybe we finally get a non-Rick Rioter to work on her, so she actually can get better. Not stronger. Better. I wouldn't mind if she was underplayed and underrated, if only her kit was interesting.

SwarovskoJun 18, 20175 votes

I like how they nerfed her shield using item 3174 as an excuse forgetting that that item 3190 shift was already a big nerf to her. We all know Karma was nerfed because she was dominating pro play, but of course they couldn't say "we are nerfing a champion who has a balanced 49%/50% win rate across all elos because of pro play" in the patch notes.

inplaneJun 18, 20175 votes

Karma simply isn't fun to play anymore. She's dull thematically and mechanically. Half of her kit only serves to refresh RE.

I don't know what Riot was thinking when they reworked her W. Aren't reworks supposed to make a champion's kit more interesting and interactive? Before, her W was so interesting and had infinite possibilities in terms of what it could've done. Now it's just a "fuck off" skill against enemies and an easier Leblanc E.

Her old Q was what made Karma 's duality stand out. The pure definition of hurt-and-heal. Funnily enough, it's the only skillshot heal in a champ's kit to exist in the game. Now it's Generic Skillshot #24 that can be upgraded into Super Generic Skillshot #24.

Her old E had it's own identity and it was known for a reason. It was a GIANT HONKING SHIELD. It was naturally giant and it had to be carefully placed or it could've been wasted. Not to forget her shield bomb that punished anybody who took their sweet time harassing her. Assassins feared her for this very reason. Now it's item 3190 plus item 3069 that is super abusive.

The removal of her old passive is a huge slap to the face to all Karma mains and fans. Getting rid of the reason why she's called "Karma" just shows how much Riot cared at the time. They flat out deleted her when her passive doesn't even resemble what it was supposed to be.

NautodayJun 19, 20171 votes

Well, Rakan has a skill shot heal now...

SilverSquidJun 19, 20171 votes

Technically, yes. In the sense, that you have to hit something to get the heal. And then there is this... the chance of healing someone else. But not in the sense, that you have to hit YOUR ALLY to heal them.

It is really close to what she had though, that's right.

inplaneJun 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well, Rakan has a skill shot heal now...

His isn't exactly a skill shot heal in the way Karma 's old Q was. Rakan just has to hit an enemy and walk near allies to heal them. The skill shot itself does not heal. The passive does which activates as soon as he's near an ally. Karma actually had to hit her Q cone onto her teammates to heal them. It was AoE too. Think of Ana from Overwatch. That's how it was.

LightIsMyPathJun 18, 20174 votes

Imho they could at least revert the last changes to her as a band-aid. She was way more fun and interactive, and actually had a good reason to be played mid before the changes to re and rw

IxtaliKingJun 18, 20173 votes

Riot should just revert her back to her pre 5.10 state, then rework her from there into something recognizably Karma.

TengrichanJun 19, 20173 votes

How about we get back her old kit with some changes?That was actually fun to use had a lot of counterplay built in.

Tobias BracknerJun 18, 20172 votes

I don't see what the problem with Karma is. She has a lot of utility and works in just about any composition.

DaNinadJun 18, 20171 votes

I hate how riot balances things based on the 0.001% of players

THE RlVER KlNGJun 18, 20171 votes

I get it that Karma has had kindve a sucky history with Riot, but Karma mains need to get it through their head that Karma support is just an awful experience to play against as anyone melee. Pokes you out of lane with low CD low mana Q, denies engage or approach options with her shield and root. Her itemization and lane patterns were way too strong in this meta and her generalist nature allows her to crowd out other picks when strong.

Not overpowered but has been consistently strong and complete hell to face in the bot lane. She was due for a nerf.

SilverSquidJun 18, 20175 votes

So you agree that her playstyle should be changed?

THE RlVER KlNGJun 19, 20171 votes

I agree that her current iteration as a support that makes melee supports' life hell is unfun and I sympathize for Karma mains who want a battle mage back, yes.

SilverSquidJun 21, 20171 votes

I like you.

I have been advocating for more depth to her kit for a long time. Generally, I argue, that her current kit - with the removed duality - is either boring or oppressive. Riot answered me by removing further depth (e.g. minion shielding) and overbuffing her values. Making her both, boring AND oppressive.

It's a joke, really.

subhuman team XDJun 18, 20171 votes

im going to say this once again , karma is saved for a full VGU sometime soon , most likely after eve/urgot rework they will probably announce her to be next or closer , ive asked them twice on their multiple pbe streams whenever a new update comes out , and they said they plan to give karma a full rework sometime next year , plus shes NOT as bad as this guy Rengar whos currently sitting at 44% so yeah ... at least shes a great support both early and late and a very useful one too , whenever i have a karma on my team im just happy all the time with all those aoe shields / ms slows and roots her kit is just perfect for a support.

KarbuncleJun 18, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unseen Predator,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L3ciz0AZ,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-06-18T21:36:29.476+0000)

im going to say this once again , karma is saved for a full VGU sometime soon , most likely after eve/urgot rework they will probably announce her to be next or closer , ive asked them twice on their multiple pbe streams whenever a new update comes out , and they said they plan to give karma a full rework sometime next year , plus shes NOT as bad as this guy whos currently sitting at 44% so yeah ... at least shes a great support both early and late and a very useful one too , whenever i have a karma on my team im just happy all the time with all those aoe shields / ms slows and roots her kit is just perfect for a support.

Imma need some proof that's huge news and will shut us up quick(in that department the rest of us will try to influence the direction of the rework only to be ignored again but hey at least we'd get to play a new kit that'l be broken in some way but that's just the direction leagues been going for years)

subhuman team XDJun 18, 20171 votes

unfortunatly they removed the vod from twitch.tv/leagueoflegends but meddler and ghostcrawler said this back in one of their 2016 pbe stream , trust me im not lying to you but they did confirm that karma was going to be saved for a full REWORK you can still ask them if she was going to be looked at and pray to god they'll answer , but dont worry she will be looked at sooner or later (imo you guys are probably gonna get something next year , a mini rework if not a full VGU) [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

SilverSquidJun 19, 20176 votes

Trusting... lying... it's not about that...

You are a random voice on the internet that I would love to believe in an instant. But the past few years have been rough and our hopes have been crushed repeatedly. I just can not believe it until I see it.

We are used to getting ignored, when we talk about Karma. We are used to having mechanics cut in exchange for mindless buffs/nerfs. We are used to not getting any Karma out of our Karma. And we are used to getting told that Karma is fine and that there are dozens of champions on a higher priority than her.

So, to convince us that things are gonna change, we gonna need to see more than just your words.

IxtaliKingJun 20, 20171 votes

I asked Meddler, he confirmed that she's not getting full rework, but said there's a reasonable chance she could get some smaller changes.

SilverSquidJun 21, 20171 votes

Ah, I see

Thank you for your inquiry. But again, there go my hopes and dreams.

IxtaliKingJun 21, 20171 votes

I'm thinking of writing up a new Karma thread. I'm trying to be careful not to overstate my point, but I'm concerned that the abolition of the class updates means that Karma will just be ignored indefinitely.

SilverSquidJun 23, 20171 votes

Hit me up once you are done. I would love to contribute. Even if time is rare.

IxtaliKingJul 12, 20171 votes

UPDATE: Meddler said Riot have been discussing some "small balance work" on Karma, but then decided they weren't going to buff her since she's still a dominant mid pick in pro play. He maintains that she still needs work though.

SilverSquidJul 12, 20172 votes

I am something between disappointed and thrilled. Disathriillted.

Thank you for keeping me up to date!

NautodayJun 19, 20172 votes

Well, Karma is sitting at 44% as well...

Tails9016Jun 19, 20171 votes

I mean, you rarely see anyone who knows how to lane against her in low elo, so people tend to feed against her mid, like when I played her

( Ironically, even when I used to main her a few months ago, my only S was when I played her adc with her standard mid lane items. Also our Poppy support knew what she was doing.)