What I noticed on the boards.

Jarrito232·Mar 11, 2015·10 votes·1,514 views

There are two paths that a new champ can go through.

Be "OP", right as they launch, resulting in the community to yell at the creator of the champion and the balance team. (This includes the ever-present "the balance teams should be fired" complaint.)
Be "weak" when they launch, and the new champ being buffed until the community finds out that they have to think of a new way to counter new said champ and call it "OP" demanding that the creator of the champ and the balance team be fired right away.

Both of these pathways result in the new champ being nerfed until they are at a steady win rate, and the community finds something new to complain about. Usually Lee Sin, Zed, and Nidalee.

Just wait until Bard comes out and see if its true. This happens most of the time.

55 Comments

EedatMar 11, 20158 votes

You forgot "being deemed 'weak' at release until they're played in the LCS then people 180 and demand nerfs" coughKalistaYasuoGnarcough

Eraest97Mar 11, 20153 votes

Whats funny about Gnar is that when he first came out, all the popular streamers (for example Scarra, Oddone, Nightblue) said that Gnar was too unpredictable and was probably never going to see the LCS. At that time everyone didn't care about screaming "GNAR OP OMG NERF". Then LCS happened....

Jarrito232Mar 11, 20152 votes

Yeah I remember seeing that as a Gnar main, and I thought that my favorite champ was just going to be underground forever.

Baron of BreadMar 11, 20152 votes

That might have something to do with a bug in his code. The tooltips and what not said the wrong duration on his passive, so it probably took some time before people realized he was more consistent than expected.

Also, on a side note, I thought Gnar would be OP when I first saw his kit. Same with Kalista; that free mobility and 20% max hp ratio screamed OP.

Eraest97Mar 11, 20153 votes

I didn't think he was going to be OP at first, but that was just because I didn't really look at the stats for his abilities (yes laziness). Then playing and reading more about Gnar even I was just like, "This guy needs some nerfs" lol.

With Kalista I just looked at her passive and went "Nope, NOPE, NOPPEEE!!"

thinking manMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You forgot "being deemed 'weak' at release until they're played in the LCS then people 180 and demand nerfs" coughKalistaYasuoGnarcough

You mean being buffed and then being considered too strong?

All of those champions got varying levels of buffs.

JunkοMar 12, 20151 votes

Kalista W passive damage went up by like 2% and now she is suddenly op

thinking manMar 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L24ikH8d,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2015-03-12T16:22:48.780+0000)

Kalista W passive damage went up by like 2% and now she is suddenly op

V5.1:

Martial Poise While Kalista still can't cancel her basic attack, she can now select a different target during the first moments of her basic attack wind up. Sentinel Soul-Marked cooldown per target reduced to 6 seconds from 8. Soul-Marked duration increased to 2 seconds from 1.5. V4.21:

Black Spear Kalista can now re-bind to a different ally any time before minute 3:00. Sentinel Fixed a few cases of modified/empowered attacks not triggering the bonus damage. Minion damage floor reduced from 100 to 75. If Sentinel procs on a minion with 125 health or less, it will automatically kill that minion. Soul Sentinels no longer see through brush or over walls.

Rend Mana cost increased from 35 to 40. Now restores 20 mana if rend kills a unit, up to twice per cast. Damage per extra spear increased from 5 / 9 / 14 / 20 / 27 (+ 0.15 / 0.18 / 0.21 / 0.24 / 0.27% AD) to 10 / 14 / 19 / 25 / 32 (+ 0.2 / 0.225 / 0.25 / 0.275 / 0.3% AD) Fate's Call Ally re-cast delay reduced from 1.2 seconds to 1.1 seconds. Visuals slightly tweaked to emphasize the re-cast delay.

I guess if you don't count the E damage/mana buff, the passive buff, and the ult buff then yeah.

Focus TeemoMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You forgot "being deemed 'weak' at release until they're played in the LCS then people 180 and demand nerfs" coughKalistaYasuoGnarcough

I complained about Kalista and Gnar on there champion announcements, LCS play wasn't required so don't give me that crap. Hell if i need proof would you like me to dig all the threads up on the old boards?

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4736323

Here's an anti-gnar thread before he was even released. People defended him because "Darius counters him" pfft..... Granted we had no idea what his capabilities were at that time, but my point stands!

EedatMar 12, 20153 votes

Are you joking? You are redirected me to a QQ thread because he's ranged as an attempt to prove you point? There no argument of how his kit is OP. Or how his numbers are strong. It's literally one of those "ALL RANGED TOP LANERS ARE CANCER HURR DURR QQ" threads. Speaking of which thank god those threads are gone. There was like 20 of them a day.

Focus TeemoMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Are you joking? You are redirected me to a QQ thread because he's ranged as an attempt to prove you point? There no argument of how his kit is OP. Or how his numbers are strong. It's literally one of those "ALL RANGED TOP LANERS ARE CANCER HURR DURR QQ" threads. Speaking of which thank god those threads are gone. There was like 20 of them a day.

No i specifically redirected you to a thread i participated in that happened prior to his release, ABOUT GNAR. The central theme of the thread was his kit was poorly designed from the start. We then went on to talk about how his kit would interact with Darius, his supposed "counter" in a respectful way. I posted in a respectful way to avoid downvotes because until they do get played in "DA LCS" like you idiots bang on about, we are NOT allowed to flame their kits poor design. Otherwise we become "shitposters"! It was the same with Kalista and its why i avoid posting altogether, or at least until it becomes socially acceptable among the sheep.

Finally are you joking... you must not have read past the first page?

EedatMar 12, 20152 votes

Yeah, I did read the first page. It's filled up "GNAR IS TOP LANE CANCER BECAUSE HE'S RANGED AND I'M GOING TO GIVE NO OTHER REASONING BEYOND THAT QQQQQQQQ"

dunder killMar 12, 20151 votes

God those threads were unbearable. Remember when Ryze top became popular and every other thread was "ALL RANGED TOP LANERS ARE CANCER/TOXIC/NOOB/BULLSHIT!!!!!!!"

Focus TeemoMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I did read the first page. It's filled up "GNAR IS TOP LANE CANCER BECAUSE HE'S RANGED AND I'M GOING TO GIVE NO OTHER REASONING BEYOND THAT QQQQQQQQ"

Your reading comprehension is indeed low. I said PAST the first page, but at least you managed to read ONE whole page.

Troy242621Mar 12, 20151 votes

Yasuo and Kalista had cries of "This design will be a horrible idea," since they were revealed :s.

JunkοMar 12, 20151 votes

Yet both had under 40% winrate and were considered weak till pros played them. I miss the times of being praised as Yasuo because i was the only person who knew how to play him around my MMR because of having PBE experience

KingsgraveMar 11, 20153 votes

Most people think underplayed = bad

Also the boards hates anything that isn't a mage and has mobility. You try to talk about Lee, Zed, Yas or Kalista at all and you get slammed. Any mage gets nerfed and there are at least 20 threads within 20 minutes about it. Veigar/Cass/Kass etc.,

You also can't talk about Melee characters that don't deserve to be buffed because people will just repeat "but gnar and liss exist you faggot" over and over and over

ChargeItDownMidMar 11, 20151 votes

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KingsgraveMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It really isn't a bad assumption to make. Remember, all of the overplayed champions are overpowered. On top of that, most of the balanced champions receive a healthy amount of play as well. As a result, the underplayed champion pool is made up of low end balanced champions and underpowered champions who need direct or indirect buffs in the upcoming patches to be viable.

Leona gets spammed but I don't think she is honestly OP. She is just popular for various reasons and is rather easy to play.

Underplayed doesn't equal bad and Overplayed doesn't equal good in every single scenario.

Focus TeemoMar 12, 20153 votes

OP is the third path being actually balanced or is Velkoz an anomaly?

Jarrito232Mar 12, 20151 votes

This is true, but I can still see people complaining though I honestly haven't seen any Vel'Koz complaining. The only grief I've witnessed over Vel'Koz is that he is a support champ now. In the current assassin meta, he just belongs in the bottom lane. It could change now that Xerath has been getting more play, so I'm kind of excited to play him mid again.

JunkοMar 12, 20151 votes

I actually have an easier time playing Vel'koz against Zed or Yasuo than playing Ziggs or Xerath and the like. I guess hist strong cc and pretty decent mana costs have something to do with it.

Jarrito232Mar 12, 20151 votes

I hate playing against assassin's when I'm Vel'Koz. The only hope I have is staying my distance, and waiting to align a q right to unload my burst.

OhOkYeaMar 11, 20151 votes

nerf kalista, teemo, himerdargan and that other one that's got the jump

MrPerson10Mar 11, 20151 votes

Heimerdinger doesn't need a nerf, he's still shit tier.

Teemo could use a numbers adjustment or rework, his kit's pretty old and doesn't really fit well anymore.

Kalista was nerfed, see above.

Gnar was heavily nerfed a week after release.

junglerboy16Mar 11, 20151 votes

The thing that is more concerning is when the super OP on release champ gets buffed because nobody bothers to think about how to play them right. When Gnar was released, everyone was like "this guy is absolute garbage!" but then only a few months later he was pick or ban in LCS and dominating at higher levels (and no, buffing his ult with an AP scaling is not in any way the cause for his sudden success).

Takeuchi 17Mar 11, 20151 votes

i think one of the biggest problems is banning a champion ( Kassadin ) for so long that the only reason people did it was because everyone else was doing it and claim OP because they had no idea how to play against/manage him in lane due to being banned all the time. and now hes been nuked to high heaven for no reason

EvilRabbittMar 12, 20151 votes

Its the reason banning is broken. It stops collaborative/individual thinking. Plz nerf banning? I'd actually be super happy about bans in draft vanishing for a week (URF comes for April Fools and Draft has no more bans, same duration?) so I could watch people cry. I'm cynical, but it'd be a great learning experience for a lot of players. (Yes, I'm in Bronze. No, I don't care. (sorry bout that, people use rankings as weapons))

The Red WardenMar 11, 20151 votes

It was with the old GD too. Usually people just stick to whatever a pro player says usually without thinking about it themselves.

ChargeItDownMidMar 11, 20151 votes

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KingsgraveMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It has happened a lot recently. Riot seems to either release champions overpowered or keep buffing new champions until they are overpowered. I personally prefer they go back to what they did with quinn and not worry about every one of their new champions being overpowered must buy champs.

Quinn was released during a time when they just pumped out champions really fast without really focusing on strengths or weaknesses or interesting kit mechanics. I would rather they not go back to that.

Kitten of EvilMar 11, 20151 votes

I personally prefer they go back to what they did with quinn and not worry about every one of their new champions

Uhhh okay, so you want champions to be not overpowered or weak, but buggy as hell (to this day, I might add)?

ChargeItDownMidMar 11, 20152 votes

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Daedalus871Mar 12, 20152 votes

But buginess and balance aren't completely seperated. For an example, Azir came out and was buggy as hell and sucked ass. He then got bugfixes and became OP.

Same thing with Quinn: If she got bug fixes (AA that didn't cancel in flight, Harrier procing half decently, etc) she too would be OP.

ChargeItDownMidMar 12, 20151 votes

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Daedalus871Mar 12, 20151 votes

While fixing bugs and balancing are handled separately handled (most likely, I have no clue how Riot does this stuff), bug fixes can make a champion overpowered.

Take Azir for an example. Between his release and him getting gutted, his buffs were: Base attack damage +4 Base attack speed increased to 0.600 from 0.556 +15 damage to his Q, but -0.1 AP on his W +20 shield

Everything else was bug fixes and QoL fixes.

Now did the +15 damage and +20 Shield make Azir go from his 38% release win rate to 48% before the nerfs, or was it all the bug fixes?

Source WR Source Patch

ChargeItDownMidMar 12, 20151 votes

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Daedalus871Mar 12, 20151 votes

But you cannot truly balance a champion if they are bugged. It doesn't matter that balance and bug fixes are different departments at Riot, bugged is bugged. Before you balance a champion there has to be no (significant) bugs.

ChargeItDownMidMar 12, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Daedalus871Mar 12, 20151 votes

Okay, I have no clue what your point.

Goodbye.

Kitten of EvilMar 12, 20151 votes

It's not completely irrelevant -- if they're ignoring balance considerations when releasing champions, they might (probably) also ignore bug considerations, since those do affect balance. Azir wasn't good until they fixed most of his bugs.

Though Quinn's case is probably because it was a time when new champs were released at least monthly.

Kitten of EvilMar 11, 20151 votes

I mean, occasionally champions will be basically fine at release (Vel'Koz?)...

But yes, it is hard to foresee how any new content will impact the game on a wide scale, from bronze to challenger, with only a limited amount of time to play-test. Usually this means new champions are either too strong or too weak.

TripsauceMar 12, 20151 votes

Kalista is OP pls delete

EvilRabbittMar 12, 20151 votes

PLZ RITO, PLZ DELETE. =P

iLuvCasiopeiaR34Mar 12, 20151 votes

"Delete everything except my mains plz" -average member of the lol community.

Zair UmbrasMar 12, 20151 votes

Syndra and Rengar. Enough said.

UperiorMar 12, 20151 votes

Bard kinda reminds me of Vel'Koz; the both look pretty balanced. They have their strengths, their weaknesses, and pretty interesting kits.

I don't see Bard becoming this huge end all support like Thresh or Leona, but I still see him having his moments to shine like Braum or Taric (I have actually seen him a lot since they got rid of Veigars stun lolol)