Is Riot planning on actually making the Warrior enchantment scale into the late game? While it might be cost efficient, later on it's a waste of a slot. You're better off going trailblazer and selling it later on.
Nekusen3 votesit does scale, having penetration means it increases a % of your damage output
ltmetal3 votesEach jungle enchant is designed to give the buyer a power spike at a certain stage of the game while still permitting safe and fast clears once completed.
tenderizes squishies and clears jungle earliest of the enchants, but falls off once enemies have an armor item or two.
hits a power spike once you have enough levels into your skills for lightning fast spell rotations (usually between levels 6-9) and falls off once you are no longer farming, usually around the point carries have level 16.
hits a power spike once you pick up your second Health item and only slightly falls off once the enemy carries get their percent pen/HP shred items.
waves a red flag to the enemy Warrior enchant jungler reading, "Counterjungle me! Take the Rift Scuttlers!" Most of the champions who typically run Devourer have to have godlike dueling to even consider it an option. But at the 20-25 minute mark, it is by far the strongest enchant of the four and only scales harder as you build durability/on-hit.
Penns2 votesHow does runeglaive scale into late? While it might be cost efficient, later on its a waste of a slot lol. A small AP scaling doesnt mean it actually scales, its pretty useless later on...
Ralanr2 votesWho uses runeglaive anyway?
I have seen no junglers use it.
Teridax684 votesSmall as its scaling may seem, that still means Runeglaive provides more power as you build more items, as with Cinderhulk's bonus health amplifier and Sated Devourer's extra on-hit procs. By contrast, Warrior's flat armor pen actually becomes less powerful as the game goes on, because the damage increase it provides is reduced by any kind of armor, including base armor growth.
I think it would be best for Warrior to scale properly into the late-game, as with any other jungle item, though it could still perhaps retain a certain degree of early game strength, as it's made to provide a ton of extra damage in early ganks and skirmishes, and would contrast well with Devourer's status as the ultimate late-game option and Cinderhulk's tremendous mid-game dominance. Seeing how each jungle enchantment so far has a lane-oriented counterpart (Sated Devourer had Typhoon Claws during Black Marker Brawlers), I think Warrior should probably mirror 
, with its power oriented more towards squishy-killing (e.g. flat armor penetration) than tank-busting.
Penns1 votesBut it doesnt scale into late game at all. By that logic, every champ in the game would scale hard into late too because "as small as their ability ratios may seem, that still means they provide more power as you build more items"...
Thats what warrior is about, its probably the best early game jungle item. Go gank with it, snowball the game and win, late game doesnt matter. Meanwhile that devourer jungler either has to farm while his lanes lose or die in a 1v1/ 2v2 against you unless... u know... 
Teridax681 votesI never said Runeglaive scaled hard, it just objectively becomes more powerful as the game progresses and you buy AP items, even if by your assessment it's not that good a late-game item. There is no champion who literally does not scale in some way, even if there are many champions who scale terribly into the late-game. By contrast, Warrior itself becomes less powerful as the game goes on, due to how flat armor pen becomes less effective as people gain more armor. I am not saying Warrior should be the best late-game enchantment, and I agree that it should be strong early game, but it still needs to be somewhat more relevant later on, otherwise we end up at the current situation where players either sell it or buy Cinderhulk instead.
Penns1 votesRuneglaive is close to useless late game, youre better off selling it and getting lich bane, so why dont u complain about its scaling as well?
Looking at MR and HP/ level, runeglaive most likely gets worse as the game progresses too, doesnt it?
If warrior is supposed to be a 
mix thats only really strong early- mid game, why would you want to change that? We already had a meta where literally everything got cinderhulk, then we had a meta where everything that could get runeglaive was broken, now we have devourer meta. I dont need the 4th item to be broken and create its own meta too lol.
Teridax681 votesThat's not how scalings work. If you do want a better-scaling item, then sure, you could sell Runeglaive and get Lich Bane instead, but the important point is that if you hold onto it as you build more items you'll still get more power out of it as the game goes on, and therefore have at least a minimal incentive to not sell it. This is ignoring the fact that Runeglaive does genuinely scale somewhat decently into the late-game, trading in 20% AP in scaling for AoE damage and mana restoration. What I was trying to point out was that flat armor penetration becomes explicitly worse as the game goes on, because the damage amplifier it provides decreases, and so Warrior becomes an increasingly worse purchase as well, which is why it needs to change.
While I don't outright want a Warrior-only meta where every AD jungler becomes overpowered (that was the case early in this season, too), I think Warrior deserves a replacement that genuinely makes it interesting in the same way as the other enchantments: Cinderhulk has this unique health buff and finally gave tanks access to decent baseline clearing power and persistent teamfight threat, Runeglaive gave some AP champions access to more consistent clearing and relieved their mana issues, and Sated Devourer allowed autoattackers to go even more nuts come the later mid game, rewarding their farming with a big power spike. By contrast, Warrior's just a stat stick that, come late-game, gets out-statted by pretty much any other AD item. It offers no unique power of its own, doesn't provide AD junglers with anything they could access through other sources, and doesn't have a real reason to sit in anyone's inventory once they have enough gold to get a replacement (by contrast, even Runeglaive offers mana restoration and an AoE AP Sheen Proc, which gives people a reason to pick it over Lich Bane). The issue with a lot of AD junglers is that they tend to not feel too good past the early game, after which they usually switch to tankier builds and end up feeling mediocre, and I think Warrior, or its replacement, needs to offer similar levels of early game power, while allowing AD junglers to make a nice baseline damage contribution even later on, and be rewarded for going for riskier AD item purchases, rather than safer tanky items.
Penns1 votesWell, no champ that builds runeglaive needs that 20% AP scaling damage or the mana restoration late game at all since it only works on jungle monsters. Why does warrior need to change? Are you saying no item should be allowed to be extremely strong early game but become weaker late game? Then brutalizer needs a change too as well as some other items. Snowballing early is the point of warrior and the champs that normally build it, theres no reason to change that. If cinderhulk works better on Lee, Vi, Rek Sai,... then nerf it if you must (which you probably dont), but dont make warrior scale because thats not how the item is supposed to be.
By contrast, runeglaive is just a stat stick+ a weak lich bane effect that, come late game, gets out statted by pretty much any other AP item. It offers no unique power of its own after 15 minutes, doesnt provide AP junglers with anything they could access through other sources (blue buff Kappa), and doesnt have a real reason to sit in anyones inventory once they have enough gold to get a replacement (did you even know that the aoe dmg and mana refund only works against monsters? And that is not a reason to pick it over lich bane. It simply does less damage, gives worse stats and no AP jungler, which are basically just Elise and Diana, needs the extra clear/ mana later on).
Teridax681 votesI actually think needs to go completely, as it's an item with such heavily skewed power that it's been preventing AD casters from scaling well through items for the longest time, and it's only by taking it out of item recipes (e.g. Black Cleaver) that AD + CDR items get to be truly good. While I agree with you that early game AD junglers like Lee Sin, Rek'Sai, etc. probably don't have to scale too much into the late game, I do think they at least need to feel relevant at all stages of the game, just as champions like Kog'Maw or Nasus get to feel like they have a specific goal in the early game, when they're super-weak. Warrior doesn't need to scale too well, but I do think it needs to offer something unique to make it worth picking/keeping over items, and that would very likely involve making it a better pick for AD builds, and thereby making it scale at least a little.
I also disagree that Runeglaive is a stat stick: stat sticks are items whose power is purely stat-based and typically lack interesting gameplay or a strategic niche, so they're either strictly better or strictly worse than other items (
, for example, is a stat stick). By contrast, Runeglaive offers interesting gameplay with its AoE Sheen effect, and has a unique niche by providing AP champions with substantially better jungle clearing power (it's better than Lich Bane in the jungle). Bringing up blue buff isn't really relevant, as it presumes the jungler will always have it when it frequently gets requested by the mid laner (it's also one of the reasons why AP junglers weren't popular for a long time). I'm not a big fan of Runeglaive, as I'd rather it were replaced by an AP jungle enchantment that catered to mages as well as AP autoattackers, but it does improve over Magus by scaling better into the late game and offering power to AP junglers that they couldn't access otherwise.
Penns1 votesWhy do you think every single champ needs to scale well? Assassins that build scale through snowballing, thats perfectly fine and good game design. Champs like Lee and Rek Sai do feel very relevant at all stages of the game, but even if they didnt, why would they have to? Some champs are good early game and need to snowball into late, some need to survive early to be good late, whats the problem about that?
No AP jungler has any problems with clearing after around, lets say, minute 15. So there is no reason to pick runeglaive over lich bane, its just flat out better but more expensive. Its a good option early game, but so is warrior.
Teridax682 votesThere is a difference between feeling weak at a certain phase of the game, which is healthy, and feeling incapable of making an impact, which isn't. If your champion doesn't feel like they have much to do at a certain stage of the game, e.g. pre-Juggernaut rework 
and 
, then that seriously devalues the experience of playing that champion, as it takes away their agency for large portions of the game. I never said every champion needs to scale well, and having champions that fall off late-game like 
or 
might even be a good thing, but at the same time they still need to feel able to contribute, which is the issue with a lot of AD junglers now who are forced to build tanky and not be able to do much past a certain point in the game.
Also, the snowballing model of Brutalizer you mentioned isn't healthy design, and Riot's been moving away from it (it's part of the reason why TBC got reworked and had it taken out of its recipe). Sure, assassins are a bit more snowbally than other classes, and that's fine, but the model of old-school assassins like 
, 
and 
, who can be overbearing early on and absolutely have to snowball in order to be effective, lest they become useless, has consistently failed. By contrast, even though you may disagree with the gameplay of, say, 
or 
, they are successful assassins because they have means of catching up and contributing to their team even when they're behind, and enough counterplay to be dealt with properly even when ahead.
Also, Runeglaive does provide late-game power that Lich Bane doesn't, primarily though its AoE proc, and regardless of how a champion's mana works out it still provides a unique advantage in mana sustain and prolonged clearing. Even in the late-game, a Runeglaive jungler will be able to use more spells than an AP champion without the item, which is why people keep the item in their inventories even late into the game. By contrast, not only does Warrior provide no unique bonuses, which makes every item with more AD flat-out better in all respects, but its scaling is so poor that it's not even worth it by the time people purchase the enchantment, which is why AD junglers usually don't pick it at all and get Cinderhulk instead.
Penns1 votesHm, idk about you but when I see champs like Lee or Kha build warrior and get some kills, they do have a lot of impact late game. And even if they dont anymore, they probably still helped their team get ahead. Who cares if they have to build tank/ bruiser items after that, they still do a lot of damage especially with those new items. Even when behind, warrior Lee easily oneshots an ADC with Q-R-Q + some autos.
And what does the aoe proc from runeglaive help AP junglers with late game? Lich bane doesnt have that, but you just dont need it when Elise W or Diana Q kills small monsters anyway, its useless just like the mana refund.
Teridax681 votesLee is exceptional in that he can circumvent his low late-game scalings with utility at high levels of play, but otherwise at most tiers he's not that successful, in spite of his popularity. Kha used to be an early game ganker, but now tends to be more successful later in the game, as shown in Champion.gg, and even then he suffers a lot during the mid game, partly because Warrior doesn't do as much for him as it should. In either case, though, their own performance doesn't really reflect that of the Warrior enchantment, and it's clear from its low overall popularity that it needs to change. Rito also briefly iterated a version with a Spirit of the Elder Lizard passive for that same reason.
It's strange that you bring up Elise and Diana when those are the two biggest examples of successful users of Runeglaive. Sure, they have a degree of inbuilt AoE, but Runeglaive's own AoE speeds up their clear tremendously, while also providing them with a bit of additional damage outside of the jungle. Runeglaive's more useful to them than Magus ever was, and it's proven to be hugely beneficial on a great deal many junglers at all stages of the game.
Penns1 votesIf Kha does better late game, how can warrior and everyone building be useless late game tho? Why even does warrior not do what it should for Kha? Its great early game and his damage is insane..
I know that they use runeglaive, but like I said, they dont need it late game. The aoe and the mana are both neglectable, Id rather have the stats and damage from lich bane or anything else, maybe a void staff or a defensive item. Runeglaive is really useful to them because, like I said, it helps them snowball themselves and their lanes hard early game, just like what warrior is supposed to do, + help their early clear and sustain.
Teridax681 votesKha does better late game in spite of Warrior, not because of it. You'd think that it would help him early on, but his success rate in the early stages of the game is pretty low, which goes to show that even on him it doesn't do him that much good.
I'd also say both Elise and Diana "need" Runeglaive even in the late game, because the clearing power they offer on top of the strength they already have is just too good to pass up. Lich Bane offers mobility and a bit more single-target damage, but to a jungler Runeglaive still offers more, which is why unlike Warrior Runeglaive gets kept even in the late game.
Penns1 votesIt does do a LOT for Kha, but he generally needs level 11 to really do much, thats why he does better late, at least thats what I think.
U sure? Because my understanding of late game is 30- 40 minutes. And there you wont need the aoe proc nor the mana refund whatsoever. It probably saves 2-3 seconds per camp, if anything while the MS and bonus damage from lich bane is gr8.
Teridax681 votesI'm not the biggest Kha expert, but I mostly refer to champion.gg for data on him. He used to be a potent early game jungler, but now he's not that good early on, a fact Warrior doesn't do much to help with.
Also yes, I'm sure. Those seconds you shave off on every camp make a big difference in the long term. As good as Lich Bane is, it seems like Runeglaive is the mainstay for AP junglers, regardless of how late they are into the game.
TTUPhoenix1 votesThere's also the fact that AP items (similar to AD/AS/Crit items on ADCs) kind of scale off of each other. If you buy 
, then the AP from Runeglaive is increased. In addition, the CDR and mana it brings makes other AP items more useful, by allowing to use abilities more often and gain more benefit from other items. Say, for example, that you buy 
after Runeglaive. The 10% CDR lets you use that 50 AP more often, thus indirectly getting more benefit from it.
Nekusen1 voteswarrior is supposed to be stronger early on and as a compensation not so much lategame. but it gives extra penetration, thing that is rare and valuable.
The Sword Saint1 votesThe reason you don't just get a trailblazer and sell it later is so that you can have a smite that's useful in combat - damage reduction against a target for example is the definition of scaling into late game, and many champions need that chilling smite slow to stick to a target and do their job (before chilling smite they almost couldn't stick at all and were picked less often because of it).
Which jungle items and gems you want can be up for debate, but you are depriving yourself of a combat ready smite if you don't get one at all.
The Bíg Ticket1 votesHow does Attack Damage and Armor Pen not scale into lategame? Even CDR scales.
Gigahappytown1 voteswarrior is better than cinderhulk and runeglaive late game because of its armor pen... and "buying trailblazer then selling it later" is a terrible strategy because everyone who does buy warrior is a jungler that specalises in early dominace and warrior gives a huge power spike which is why lee jarvan vi rek,sai were so broken
Jungle Lux God1 votesJust because Warrior is the only enchant that doesn't scale doesn't mean that Warrior should scale.
For reference, Cinderhulk and Runeglaive don't have a whole lot of scaling.
fukimissHarambe1 votesPenetration is a good stat all game long, plus the big selling point on warrior is the ability it gives to snowball earlygame much more easily
