8.7 Ninja Tabi math

Khristophoros··9 votes·2,951 views

It's hard to estimate from the patch notes in which cases Ninja Tabi is now stronger and which it is now weaker. At first glance you might think the 2% makes up for 10 armor. But let's see when that's true and when it isn't. It depends on your armor. I chose the following armor values kind of arbitrarily but it should shed some light on what the changes actually did.

50 armor without tabi: You take 66.6% damage from attacks (ie. you have 33% reduction) 8.6 tabi (you have 80 armor + 10% reduction): You take 55.5% x 0.9 = 50% from basic attacks 8.7 tabi (70 armor, 12% reduction): You take 58.8% x 0.88 = 51.8% from basic attacks

Result: at 50 armor, it was nerfed vs basic attacks. Your damage taken is 51.8% instead of 50%. So it was nerfed even for basic attacks for low armor users. Rejoice, Draven mains!

80 armor without tabi: You take 55.5% 8.6 tabi (110 armor + 10%): You take 47.6% x 0.9 = 42.9% 8.7 tabi (100 armor + 12%): You take 50% x 0.88 = 44%

Result: Still a nerf vs autoattacks at 80 armor.

150 armor without tabi: You take 40% 8.6 tabi (180 armor + 10%): You take 35.7% x 0.9 = 32.1% 8.7 tabi (170 armor + 12%): You take 37% x 0.88 = 32.6%

Result: STILL slightly nerfed, but you can see we're very close to the break-even point.

Basically it's only a buff vs autos if you are a tank/jugg or you just stacked a ton of armor. Even then it's still a nerf vs everything that's not a basic attack.

If the enemy has % armor pen it brings the break-even point a bit lower but it will still be rather high. This would be a slight buff in edge cases that have a ton of armor shred going on and you're worried about autoattacks, but you wouldn't survive either way probably since we're talking about differences of like 1-2% damage taken.

So there you have it.

Conclusion: It matters a lot against physical damage abilities since you lost 10 armor and got nothing (Riot's expressed intent) however, It's worth noting that it is not a buff vs autoattackers in most cases.

11 Comments

Eedat4 votes

I mean even at 80 armor you are looking at a difference of 1%. I wouldnt really consider that a nerf at that point. Hell, even some ADCs get 80 base armor

Khristophoros2 votes

{quoted}

I mean even at 80 armor you are looking at a difference of 1%. I wouldnt really consider that a nerf at that point. Hell, even some ADCs get 80 base armor

The more important point is it's not buffed vs autoattacks (unless you are a high armor tank) like some people had assumed.

SuperCommander4 votes

It is a nerf against basic attacks until you have 320 armor.

EDIT: Proof. Assume 100 damage against 320 armor and ninja tabi pre-nerf: Damage taken: 100x0.9x100/(100+320+30)=20.

Assume 100 damage against 320 armor and ninja tabi post-nerf: Damage taken: 100x0.88x100/(100+320+20)=20.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Of course, this is ignoring Black Cleaver, Lethality, and Last Whisper. None of which penetrate Tabi's %reduction.

With those factored in (BC+LW upgrade penetrate about 50% armor) that number should drop to about 210 armor.

Harden Stepback1 votes

buff for tanks nerf for bruisers and adc's that built it

koshkyra1 votes

I think you get 33.3% reduction at 100 armor and then 50% at 200

Edit: im wrong ignore me the OP is right

fruckyoo1 votes

I think the only flaw in your math is not accounting for heavier hitting ADC's like Jhin and Draven. 12% of a 550 AD Jhins auto hurts a lot more than say.. a Jinx at 200AD. Also, I think by the point anyone has 100+ armor, no ADC is going to have only 100AD(probably 150+), especially Jhin/Draven. Also as you draw further into the late game and Last Whispers are purchased..the extra 2% AA reduction is more valuable than 10 armor(Because that 10 armor becomes 6.5, or 5.5). When you're against a comp like..Yasuo(mid)..Jinx(bot..Fiora(top), it makes Ninja Tabi the clear choice and it's very likely almost every person will purchase Tabi's. This is what ADC's are upset about, is the primary dmg from ADC's is AA based. This is what ADC's are upset about because Mid will buy, ADC will buy, support will buy, etc. There are 5 tier 2 boot purchases available, and when one boot has a 50% purchase/use ratio..I think it's clear that they are over powered. I can see it definitely being a nerf for early game 10-15 mins, which means most players will likely delay the purchase and buy something else..but mid game++ the new ninja tabis are definitely better.

Khristophoros1 votes

The damage reduction percentage including both armor and the tabi passive you have against the autoattack is the same regardless of how hard the attack hits. It didn't get buffed against heavy hitters. It still got nerfed vs them because they will deal more damage to you than they did last patch.

Like say Draven hits you for 1000 damage and you have 80 armor before tabi, so looking at the above math on that:

8.6 tabi (110 armor + 10%): You take 47.6% x 0.9 = 42.9% -> he deals 429 dmg 8.7 tabi (100 armor + 12%): You take 50% x 0.88 = 44% -> he deals 440 dmg

429 (last patch) is less damage than 440, therefore it was nerfed. IDK how to explain this more clearly. There is nothing special about heavy hitters and ninja tabi except if you compare them to champs who rely on physical abilities rather than autoattacks.

Ok what if the attacker has last whisper (35% pen vs bonus armor) and let's say before tabi 100 of your armor is bonus and 50 is base? ok let's see.

100 bonus armor/50 base armor before tabi 35% bonus armor pen 8.6 tabi ((84.5 + 50) armor (134.5) + 10% DR): You take 42.6% x 0.9 = you take 38.4% 8.7 tabi ((78 + 50) armor (128) + 12% DR): You take 43.9% x 0.88 = you take 38.6%

So it's still a slight nerf when the attacker is using last whisper, and we're looking at pretty high armor so it's still safe to say it was only buffed for tanks.

Don't say "there's a flaw in your math" if you didn't check the math. You're going off intuition which is wrong and that's the point of this thread. The first assumption players have about this change is wrong. It was only buffed for tanks.

PS: And about the balance issue. Why is ninja tabi the most purchased boot? Because all the other ones are either too niche or just weak. We're talking about an item you can only choose one of. It should be high impact, but tabi is the only boot that is high impact.

fruckyoo1 votes

200 - 45% = 90 = 47.36% Hit for 200 x 250%(IE Crit Mult.) = 500 - 12% = 440 - 47.36% = 231.616 210 - 45% = 94.5 = 48.58 Hit for 200 x 250%(IE Crit Mult.) = 500 - 10% = 450 - 48.58% = 231.39

So looks like break even point is around 200 armor with a full LW item 45%, and then it's going to be even better after that.

"PS: And about the balance issue. Why is ninja Tabi the most purchased boot? Because all the other ones are either too niche or just weak. We're talking about an item you can only choose one of. It should be high impact, but tabi is the only boot that is high impact."

You kind of just proved my point here...? XD If all the other boots are either "too niche" or "just weak". Doesn't that make Ninja Tabi's in fact..over powered when compared to the other boots..? That's what over powered means..when one choice is clearly better than the others.

So you're right, early game they are weaker. In the end though I think they are stronger. People will just delay the purchase of Ninja Tabi's(Not rush them after first item), which allows them to buy their core items first. Then pick up Tabi's once the physical damage dealers come online.

I think people were expecting a "bigger" nerf, and you're right I didn't check the math - my bad. However a difference of 5-6 dmg per auto early game, spiking up to being even better on tanks late game isn't exactly a nerf when it's not uncommon to see a Sion with 300+ armor in 30+ min games.

It's basically a trade off..early game for late game. Personally in a meta dominated by bruisers and tanks, I'd take the 8.7 Tabi's - top lane and jungle tanks/bruisers are so impactful in fights.

I think Tabi's need a real nerf, node a trade off.

Khristophoros2 votes

It doesn't matter if it's a small nerf. The point of this thread, as I have said a million fucking times, is that Ninja Tabi were not buffed vs autos aside from tank users.

Kraken071 votes

Haha...Dude likes to argue for the sake of arguing! Instead he should prob just shut his trap, read and learn!

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