@Meddler, if Rylais loses its health and gets the CDR, Mana a few champs would abuse it even more

Malicious Metal·Oct 7, 2016·45 votes·1,711 views

These three amongst others would benefit a lot if Rylais became a high end, high damage option. They don't really care about the health anyways and making Rylais cater to squishy hypercarry mages would make them even more of an annoyance.

A lot of people dislike these kinds of mages becoming virtually untouchable while slowing you to a crawl.

You said you wanted to make Rylais an OPTION but this change would not only screw over manaless casters but also make it a NECCESSITY on these few mages. Health being universal is NOT a bad thing, it providing too much in ONE package is.

52 Comments

Rock MDOct 7, 20167 votes

Not quite. Azir would benefit but Viktor and Cassie are both short ranged and their thing in combat is, "If you don't burst them down instantly they will output ungodly amounts of damage." and Rylai's health caters to that.

You could just nerf the AoE/single-target slow's strength.

Sniper 0Oct 7, 20163 votes

Then you run the risk of unintentionally nerfing champions that don't abuse the item but need it to be played properly.

specter424Oct 7, 20161 votes

well I mean you know they could always remove the reliance

Rock MDOct 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zyra Suit Samus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kt9fIiX5,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-10-07T06:18:26.997+0000)

Then you run the risk of unintentionally nerfing champions that don't abuse the item but need it to be played properly.

Rylai's is being built as the go-to item for almost all mages as it stands right now, from Annie to Viktor to Syndra, Xerath, etc.

The only mages I don't see it on are Lux, Lissandra, and LeBlanc.

The item in and of itself is obviously abusive if everyone and their mother is using it and I'm sorry you're too biased as a Zyra main to see that.

Sniper 0Oct 7, 20161 votes

All I said was that it was going to unintentionally nerf the champions that the items isn't abusive on. I never said "it's not abusive on Zyra". Putting words in my mouth is nice though. :^)

Zyra is a mage that would totally benefit from it becoming a high end damage item(Kinda already is but losing the hp for cdr wouldn't exactly hurt her that much)... lol

Currently branching Maokai out from Zyra...

RebonackOct 7, 201612 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kt9fIiX5,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2016-10-07T06:21:06.070+0000)

Rylai's is being built as the go-to item for almost all mages as it stands right now, from Annie to Viktor to Syndra, Xerath, etc.

The only mages I don't see it on are Lux, Lissandra, and LeBlanc.

The item in and of itself is obviously abusive if everyone and their mother is using it and I'm sorry you're too biased as a Zyra main to see that.

It's being built as the go-to AP item because it's in the highest AP bracket. If it only gave 60 AP and way more HP to put more in line with Mallet then more Mages would think twice before grabbing it.

ParoeOct 7, 20168 votes

{quoted}

It's being built as the go-to AP item because it's in the highest AP bracket. If it only gave 60 AP and way more HP to put more in line with Mallet then more Mages would think twice before grabbing it.

before the great AP nerfening, raylais was a middle-tier AP item bought on tankier mages. After the great AP nerfening, it became one of the top three.

Ludens and zhonyas need 120AP again. Rylais needs a drop to 80AP.

CatastropOct 7, 20165 votes

{quoted}

zhonyas need 120AP again.

God no, or the boards would implode on the hate being spewed, I can just imagine the god awful HateDaddy thread.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20161 votes

I'd say 100 ap, 120 is excessive.

CatastropOct 8, 20161 votes

Even that's too high because you'll end up in the same situation that got the item nerfed in the first place, 80-90 would be good.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20161 votes

Hourglass is @70 right now right?

90 def seems okay and good enough to me.

LeeerzeichenOct 7, 20161 votes

compare it to the other tanky ap items (the last number is the gold efficiency if you only care for hp, ar, mr and ap): zhonyas: 70 ap, 45 ar, 10%cdr => 92% gold efficient; 83% abyssal scepter: 60 ap, 60 mr, 10& cdr => 96% gold efficient; 86% (<- this could be higher because it has a combat stat passiv) rod of ages: 300-500 hp, 300-400 mana, 60 - 100 ap => 93%-150% gold efficient; 77-129% (<- you have to wait 10! min to get the full value) rylais: 100 ap, 400 hp => 101% gold efficient; 101%

this item is actually your best choice if you want to get as much stats for your gold as possible, even if you dont care about the passive

PsyturkeyOct 8, 20161 votes

To be fair though those gold efficiency ratings are pretty low.

AD items for examples tend to be gold efficient+ before their passives.

RogueWillOct 8, 20162 votes

Try true tank items, sitting at 80% and then you have the OP item 3110 sitting at 130% or so

PsyturkeyOct 8, 20161 votes

Absolutely. Point is AP items are hardly king of the gold efficiency castle.

specter424Oct 7, 20166 votes

dont care about the health? viktor and cass are both lower range mages, if you dont blow them the fuck up you get blown the fuck up.

SpecterVonBarenOct 7, 20162 votes

The thing is, reducing or removing its health wouldn't stop them from building it. The health is a nice benefit for their ranges but it's not the reason they get the item nor is it what's frustrating about the item.

LadyRenlyOct 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

dont care about the health? viktor and cass are both lower range mages, if you dont blow them the fuck up you get blown the fuck up.

it's not why you buy it, though. that's what they mean by they "don't care" about the hp. but it is nice though

Nagoh ShanOct 7, 20166 votes

If it happens, I'm more worried about Ryze. Another big ticket AP mana item he can use? Ew.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20161 votes

According to top players (dopa) is garbage, but he does see pick on worlds

Nagoh ShanOct 8, 20161 votes

Picked 5 times with an 80% winrate so far at worlds.

GULAG 4 UOct 8, 20162 votes

Fuck my bad

TyrekGoldenspearOct 7, 20163 votes

I disagree slightly on not caring about health. As Azir I know I'm normally tissue paper, so Rylais gives me some more bulk.

This plus a slow helps me kite and gives some insurance, and by that I mean I get some more time to flash or ult for safety.I would love the CDR and mana though.

Malicious MetalOct 7, 20163 votes

The thing about health is that it doesn't really scale well into late game due to most mages lacking the resistances to back it up. Sure, health is useful but giving it only mana locks a ton of other champions out of building it.

And let's be honest, the mana less casters who use it are NOT the problem

HazyCloud7Oct 7, 20161 votes

Not true at all about the health not scaling well. Also who's to say those mages don't build a zhonyas or abyssal if the situation calls for it?

YumaS2AstralOct 7, 20161 votes

I think the point that he is trying to make is that although Azir and the others like health, this is not a stat that should be prioritized on him, since he needs AP, CDR, and magic penetration, way more (and in case of Azir, he also needs attack speed).

Health is an always welcome bonus, but it is not like it is the main reason why those champions get it.

StephenizgodOct 7, 20163 votes

Does anybody remember Rylai's before they buffed it? Did anyone care about it? NO. Because only a few champions actually required it in their builds like Morde and Malzahar. They actually needed the Health and Slow to stay relevant in a fight, with all this mobility creep being introduced. I am not entirely sure why Rylai's was buffed in the first place, but add that on top of all the top tier AP items being nerfed, Rylais dominating was not hard to see coming.

I think the best solution is nerf its AP and buff the AP of other items, that way Rylai's goes back to a Utility AP item for champions that don't have mobility or long range burst. Champions like Annie, Veigar, Viktor, Ahri, and such would no longer be able to afford buying Rylai's over another AP item anymore.

SociopathFriendOct 7, 20162 votes

That feeling when people don't complain about items like item 3022 item 3071 item 3078 which are all auto-attack-based and can't be dodged. But item 3116 having to land skillshots for 9/10 of the champions that use it is "too strong".

YumaS2AstralOct 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That feeling when people don't complain about items like which are all auto-attack-based and can't be dodged. But having to land skillshots for 9/10 of the champions that use it is "too strong".

Because Frozen Mallet requires you to auto-attack and most champions who would want to buy it cannot constantly auto-attack the enemy effectively (AD fighters) or would rather have more AD (AD assassins) the ones that can (ADCs) need other items first.

Black Cleaver and Trinity Force do not slow you, they speed up the user, which is completely different and has more counterplay.

morris1Oct 8, 20162 votes

So I can rush Rylai's instead of Morello and get Morello's stats AND the slow? I surely won't abuse this /s

https://i.gyazo.com/6ad1bc7ee1e923d2493e502a35bde6d3.png

TwinkieProOct 7, 20161 votes

Even more necessary for Singed were this change to go through.

Bladerunner7777Oct 7, 20161 votes

Just do what they did to Zhonays

Lower it's stats, lower it's price, make the main reason you get it for the passive (or active in zhonya's case)

Champions that really need it will build it regardless AurelionSol and champs that barely need it at all will stop getting it Ahri Syndra

InTheoryOct 7, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Malicious MetalOct 7, 20163 votes

Get on my last thread about Rylais, Meddler stated they "might" rid it of its hp but give it mana and car, which is nonsense if you ask me. We already got an item with these stats item 3165

HazyCloud7Oct 7, 20161 votes

Lets be honest, you're concerned about how this will impact Mordekaiser. The health that Rylai's provides is crucial to it being an overloaded item presently. Viktor & Cassiopeia can just pick up a giant's belt and forgo a negatron or seekers armguard that they might need to buy instead if they item didn't give health.

The two problems are:

The item is overloaded, simply provides too much.
The AoE slow is too high

Remove or lower the health significantly, reduce the AoE slow, add cdr, bam. Item fixed. Provide proper compensation to Singed & Mordekaiser. Viktor doesn't need to build mana anyway, he can manage just fine with the mana his hexcore upgrades provide. Removing the health would CERTAINLY be a nerf to Viktor and Cass and anybody is really silly to think other wise given that their range makes them susceptible to just getting blown up if they build entirely glass cannon.

SpecterVonBarenOct 7, 20162 votes

Reduce the AP, why reduce the health when it's always been a health+AP item when it's the increase in AP that's the aberration?

MordepoolOct 7, 20161 votes

The problem started when the ap went up and HP went down

Jinzo TorranceOct 7, 20161 votes

Abuse? Viktor is a control mage who had his burst delayed by a lot, if not for Rylais he will be garbage, his ray takes about 0.85 seconds to hit the second part and his ulti was made slower too with 2 seconds delay between the damage, he could only use his single target Q>AA burst by going ADC range which only hurts after he builds lichbane (least cost-effective item in the game) and requires you to max Q over E (Auto over Death-ray, so he can be shoved under turret) without Rylais, and he is supposed to control the battlefield not to be old GP but AP.

Azir is garbage and will probably be reworked or severely changed, nice way to prove a point of Rylais being "abused" by him, it's his only way to win now.

Riot fucked up on Cassio, Rylais overloads her kit, Q speeds her up and slow you down, E too, just a mess right now.

Honestly for the state Mordekaiser was left at, you should really stop asking for buff and worrying about his "love-hate" relationship with Rylais, every mage has "love-hate" relationship with Rylais by your logic, "love-hate" means that Morde will be forced to build this new Rylais losing stats in exchange for the slow passive, not that Rylais makes him playable because Morde has no CC, the whole item has not a wasted stats to be defined "love-hate".

Also Rylais was not changed anytime this season, last change was in 5.13 (5.22 if you count cost increase), so MYMU made it necessary on mages who got their reliabilty nerfed and a rush on those who got fucked by RoA and Tear changes.

YumaS2AstralOct 7, 20162 votes

The sad truth about Mordekaiser is that if weren't for Rylais, he would literally do NOTHING. He can't stick to anyone, doesn't have mobility, or CC, he absolutely needs Rylai. I don't even know why people still say that having no mobility or CC is part of Mordekaiser's identity. Well, if that's his identity, I would rather have another identity for Morde.

Jinzo TorranceOct 7, 20161 votes

So he loves the item:

Does Morde need AP? Yes Does Morde need health? Yes Does Morde need Rylais passive? Absolutely

Then why is it love-hate relationship if every stats it provides is being used by Morde?

Let's suppose Rylais passive was on Ardent Censer instead of the increased heal and shield.

Does he need AP? Yes, though 60 is low Does he need CDR? Yes Does he need mana regen? Absolutely no Does he need the on-hit after healing an ally with W? Hmm, no, but is one millimiter above mana regen, still pretty bad Does he need the Rylais passive? Absolutely

See, this is love-hate relationship, mana-regen and 15 magic on-hit is wasted on him, and the AP is low, but it's only item that makes Morde playable. He's forced to build it and it makes him playable but the stats are garbage for his kit.

YumaS2AstralOct 7, 20161 votes

If somehow this were to actually happen, then it would show a problem with Mordekaiser's kit, and an even bigger need to rework him. Thankfully Rylai has no wasted stats for Morde. I hope that it continues to be that way.

NineTailedMysticOct 8, 20161 votes

Rylai's may not have been changed, but in the 6.8/9 Mage Update, the itemization drastically changed, changing Rylai's position on the itemization 'tier' list.

Jinzo TorranceOct 8, 20161 votes

Also Rylais was not changed anytime this season, last change was in 5.13 (5.22 if you count cost increase), so MYMU made it necessary on mages who got their reliabilty nerfed and a rush on those who got fucked by RoA and Tear changes.

DengedenOct 7, 20161 votes

Azir's current weakness is hard engage or forcing objectives and you have the audacity to say he doesn't care about health?

When Rylai's is like the most healthy item in the game? The one that allows mages to have limited damage because bruisers don't rightclick them to death the moment they show up?

MordepoolOct 7, 20161 votes

And meanwhile Mordekaiser will lose the only item he actually synergizes with