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Jhin, as a champion, is a thematic failure. (LONG POST)

ModCaptainMårvelous··135 votes·14,599 views

http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/3054/240/original.jpg

#DISCLAIMER: THIS IS IN NO WAY REFLECTIVE OF THE CHAMPION'S KIT BEING BALANCED AND FUN/NOT FUN. A CHAMPION WHO IS A THEMATIC FAILURE CAN STILL HAVE A DECENT KIT.

#EDIT: People keep telling me to wait for the VO. Kindred has an amazing VO and a kit that has zero to do with her. Illaoi has a great VO and a good kit. THE VO IS A NON-FACTOR IN WHY I AM DISAPPOINTED.

With that huge disclaimer in mind...I'm disappointed Riot.

Jhin is the latest in a long line of failures that strives to create a unique character, give him a compelling identity in the universe and hype him up as something completely new...yet his kit completely fails to capture the identity of a virtuoso. Lemme start with recent examples to show what I mean: One I consider a success, one a failure.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Illaoi_0.jpg

Illaoi has, in my opinion, been the shining star when it comes to expressing character in kit during the 2015 year.

Illaoi is portrayed, in lore, as a strong priestess who carries the weight of both a metal idol and her very god. Her voice work talks of how she tests those she sees as needing a test. She encourages and guides others, sometimes through force and sometimes through words. Illaoi is in every respect a woman who knows what she wants and just how to get it. This, in her kit, is perfectly reflective. In my mind, a successful kit has two points to it:

  • How difficult would it be to put this on another champion with an entirely different theme?
  • How much does this character fit with the kit they are trying to portray?

I thought for a while on Illaoi's kit, trying to find fault or a way I could shoehorn. The only possible idea I came up with was a shaman who used a massive totem...and that's basically what Illaoi is. She channels her god through brute force. She tears out your soul with the long arm of Nagakeboros. Her ult is a last ditch attempt to enforce the will of her god by bringing it to furition in the rift. If you removed Illaoi's kit, it could be done...but it wouldn't be as successful as it is now.

In my eyes, Illaoi's kit is what a kit should be: It plays well enough (Balanced or not), it reinforces her identity and it's something you cannot easily remove from Illaoi. Now, let's look at something I consider a failure.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Kindred_0.jpg

Kindred's kit is a disgrace to the visuals that Kindred provides. When hyped up, we were told we were getting a dual champion. This was death personified, a hunter who either grants a swift and merciful death or a painful, bloody end. Two sides of the same coin, a spirit that guides those into the afterlife. I, and many others, were pumped. What did we get?

Nothing. We got a champion who is just a champion. But it goes deeper than that. Remember that "How difficult could it be to put this on a different character" rule? Imagine if Kindred wasn't a spirit. Instead she was a bounty-hunting, agile yordle. The ultimate may need replacing but, otherwise, you can completely remove Kindred from this kit and have a kit that thematically works with another character. It's extremely disheartening. "But Cap, what about Wolf being used in W!? What about the whispers and particles and-"

Kindred is the worst example, imo, of what I like to call "Particle Characterization". Riot isn't selling her character and personality through her kit. They're selling her through the particles. Wolf attacking in the circle. Runic symbols of black and white over enemies. She is made more by the particles and model than she is by her kit. That's disgraceful. A champion should work organically with her kit. Illaoi's kit enhances her character. Kindred's kit feels like an afterthought on a champion Riot knew would sell.

Don't believe me on this "particle characterization"?

Ekko - Timey whimey projectiles and chrono-esque patterns. Q makes zero sense as a time bandit, W is only kept in place by "Look it's a paradox/copy of him in the past" and E has zero to do with time. If you told me Ekko was just a teleporting thug with gravity controls, I'd buy it.

Bard - Sorta forgive this because "celestial defender" is rather...well, open to interpretation. Still, I never got a feel for celestial defender. Bard isn't defending or warping reality/time/space to protect others except in his ult. He just has fancy golden projectiles and mystic-looking things.

Kalista - SPOOKEH SPIRIT UF VENGUNCE....that hops around and has little to do with those she makes a pact with sans ult. What if we replaced her hop-skip-jump with something more substantial? Her soulbound dying gives her massively increased damage/attack speed because she's fueled by revenge? Her soulbound hitting a spear-filled enemy increases the duration? There' is SO MUCH that can be done with this concept but...once again, bigfoot spear lady.

And now we come to Jhin.

Replace Jhin. Remove him completely from the equation. Did that? Ok. Now imagine that Jhin is now Scrumpy, The Zaun Commando.

Do you see what I mean?

Jhin's kit has little to do with actual virtuoso-ing. He has no artistic style to his kit's gameplay. It's all supposedly told in the particles. Jhin is a non-factor. You can replace him with a cyborg gunner and nothing would be lost. This artistic killer, this "beautiful sadist" is a god damn sham and I'm extremely disappointed in Riot. Yes, I understand that kits are difficult to make. I saw the Bard removed abilities, I completely understand...but for god's sake, PLEASE stop trying to connect a character's kit and character only by particles and art. You've proven that you can do it (See: Braum Yasuo TahmKench Jinx ), just please keep doing it.

TL;DR: Riot, as of late, is trying to sell champion-kit unity through little more than particles. I am disappointed because they've proven they can do so much better.

247 Comments

Big Lincoln56 votes

you could have just written "people don't explode into trees" and i'd be on board

but you had to insult Bard didn't you?

ModCaptainMårvelous20 votes

Bard's awesome. I love his design and I love playing him.

But I never got the feeling of "Celestial Defender God-tier being" despite that being what he is.

Blackmage92 votes

To talk about Bard he went through drastic changes from what we have now.

{quoted}

Bard went through a lot of different abilities before we hit on his final kit, including at one point getting briefly iceboxed until we took another run at his gameplay. Some abilities off the top of the head with musical/sounds elements to them we tried:

  • A three charge single target skillshot that applied a stun on the final shot if you fired all 3 shots to a beat that was playing. Was a lot of fun to mess around with against bots/minions, but felt really restrictive in actual PVP unfortunately,
  • A DDR/Guitar hero style ult, matching visual effects to a beat. Same problem as above - sounded cool, but didn't actually work out well in game. I do wonder if there might be a more subtle version of this sort of ability that might work though.
  • A passive that dropped a lay waste style effect under targets Bard hit with an auto attack, with the effect detonating after a certain number of beats. This one showed promise, wouldn't surprise me if some variant on it eventually ends up on a kit.
  • A giant wave of slow moving sound that gradually moved across the map, silencing enemies while they remained within it (had a thickness of around 1200 units, moved at something like 600 units. Looked awesome, but felt really random given how far in advance you had to cast it, which isn't good gameplay for a silence which is a pretty reactive effect. Slow moving wave from one side of the map to the other's still got some promise though, can imagine us revisiting that as well someday with a different effect on it on a different champ.

From http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/49nmeW20-riot-a-question-about-our-favorite-cosmic-vagabond?comment=0000

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

Yeah, I referenced that in the post.

Blackmage910 votes

Ah but I do agree with Kindred. I feel like they should have done similar to Jayce in that they had a melee form, Wolf, and a Ranged form, Lamb. But with a twist in that Lamb the gentle side of death should be a supportive form with some utility and CC and when you become Wolf being the painful death you get some aggressive skills like an execute and a way to shred the enemies' armor.

NOHRIAN SKUM6 votes

I'm okay with what they actually went with, given that there's the fact that the duality of the two intermingle with their kit. Wolf enhances Lamb when they're together(W+Q), and they attack together(E). Their control of death (although less control in terms of gameplay, but eh) is present in the ultimate. Both are present, neither are neglected because they're switching primary, despite that if it was done then it probably open them up to more things to do with their thematics.

Ultimate probably could be improved, but eh. It's passable for me. Just don't bother if your answer is "introduce form-changing", because that sure went well with other champions before hand. "But we're talking thematics, not gameplay balance." Well honey, those go hand in hand for the final product. If you have to resort to seven skills, it's better to scrap that kit completely.

Sachabot39 votes

Malphite is the size of a mountain outside the Rift. Jax is the strongest fighter to ever exist. Azir is an immortal mage-emperor. Although it's retconned now, in the old lore summoners just borrowed a portion of the power of champions, hence the disconnect.

We could take your point and put it to old champions, too, as many don't execute the fantasy of their theme. Lux doesn't feel or play like a light mage (other than her ult). There's nothing especially tactical about the Noxian Master Tactician, Swain. Jax, again. Aatrox isn't some unkillable being of pure carnage (at least until he gets super fed, and then it's still iffy).

Let's be honest. This isn't a new trend, or even one unusual in games. They do what they think is the most based on the limits of the game, platform, and engine, while trying to mold to the constraints of the almighty "theme".

ModCaptainMårvelous11 votes

I thought we moved past this, however.

We have kits that reflect champion personalities, as I pointed out in the above. I'll also concede that the champion will not always be 1:1 with the kit. See Tahm: His thick skin doesn't make sense but the rest of his kit does.

Jhin, Kindred, Kalista, etc however feel like there was zero connect with who was designing the kit and who was making the character/art/story/etc.

Sachabot5 votes

I'm not disagreeing with that. I disagree with your final statement that it's somehow new, this "particle characterization" as you call it. In fact, in many older cases it is even worse, with an almost total disconnect between the art, the lore, and the kit.

ModCaptainMårvelous18 votes

Well lemme reword it then:

It feels like a regression. We went from champs who were just dota-copies to champions who really did something neat with their kits (Again, Braum Jinx Draven etc.) and making reworks that amplify a champion's identity instead of stifle it (Fiora Sion Poppy ). Yet now we're going back to the style that I felt Riot actually moved on from.

Oh and please remember that I'm just dissecting theme. Don't want to ruffle feathers because someone assumes I think so-so is balanced when I just like how their kits works with who they are/what they do.

SirHeavyScrotum5 votes

Ya know, I don't think Kindred's kit is as disjunctive as you think it is. Kindred is the combination and dichotomy of Lamb and Wolf. Lamb is the compassionate one, a being of mercy who tries to usher her mark into death quietly and peacefully. Wolf, on the other hand, is the savage one. Wolf is pursuit and danger. Kindred has two ways of creating a "zone" in her kit, her ult and her W. When you ult you hear Lamb say things like "Savor life's flavor!" or "Not here. Not now." She is exercising her compassion, though only temporarily, giving her enemies time to "savor life's flavor". However, when you W, you hear Wolf start growling and barking, chomping at the bit and chasing whoever he can get his teeth on. Lamb is likewise much harder to kite during this time, as she chases down her mark. This is the ferocious side of the Kindred. So, you see, Kindred's kit does reflect her personality in a pretty unique way, you may have just never thought of it like that. ^_^

BasedJefe1 votes

Did you even read OPs point about how they do it with particles and they also do it with VOs? I agree with OP on pretty much every point, and disagree with you because of that. Just because you hear some voice work, or just because you see some shiny shit; doesn't mean that you have a thematically put-together champion. Do you have a fun champion? Yeah, definitely. Competitive? Absolutely. Thematically strong? Fuck no. Honestly, BH in DotA is the same damn champion which is exactly what OP says you could replace Kindred with.

If you're unfamiliar with DotA or Bounty Hunter, I'll explain. BH gets an invis level 1 and is free to roam the map how he pleases. His q is a crit-steroid to his auto attack (bear in mind he is also a melee champion) and has a passive ability similar to Shaco in that if he attacks you from behind he gets bonus damage. His Ult marks people and when he kills that mark he gets movement speed buff while stealthed for a few seconds afterward, and gets bonus gold for whomever claimed the bounty-mark kill; the bonus is higher if BH gets the kill himself.

TL:DR, VO and light particles don't make champions, as OP said. Kits and story do. Riot can make great themes with competitive champs as OP as said, and it's annoying that you and so many other people continue throwing your money at these shit champs with no criticism of Riot and what they're actually doing. Being lazy in between a few great champs just to get more money.

SirHeavyScrotum1 votes

Yes, I did read it. You need to calm down with your scolding me, I'm an adult not your 2 year old.

That being said, I don't think you really read my post either. Kindred as a character is the Wolf & Lamb dichotomy. Kindred can create two zones in her kit, one ruled by the compassionate Lamb, allowing those who aren't her mark, or those who she deems worthy, a second to enjoy their last moments. The other is the one controlled by Wolf, where he chases his prey, it's a danger zone. Everyone complains about the ult being in her kit, but I think it's a nice counter to Wolf's zone with Lamb's zone. Yeah the passive isn't completely unique but I do think it fits her, and if you think every ability has to be 100% unique then you have no idea how hard it is to come up with unique abilities that function in game.

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

I understood what you said, and it makes sense when I thought of it while I was reading your post. Good job explaining that stuff

SirHeavyScrotum2 votes

Thanks bud =)

TotalJerk7 votes

Two aspects that Jax pulls of thematically though is that he's one of the best duelists in the game and he can use any item effectively to an extent.

Rengar Top Lane10 votes

{quoted}

Malphite is the size of a mountain outside the Rift. Jax is the strongest fighter to ever exist. Azir is an immortal mage-emperor. Although it's retconned now, in the old lore summoners just borrowed a portion of the power of champions, hence the disconnect.

We could take your point and put it to old champions, too, as many don't execute the fantasy of their theme. Lux doesn't feel or play like a light mage (other than her ult). There's nothing especially tactical about the Noxian Master Tactician, Swain. Jax, again. Aatrox isn't some unkillable being of pure carnage (at least until he gets super fed, and then it's still iffy).

Let's be honest. This isn't a new trend, or even one unusual in games. They do what they think is the most based on the limits of the game, platform, and engine, while trying to mold to the constraints of the almighty "theme".

Nasus is demigod that fears a yordle with a blowpipe at the beginning of the game... .-.

SpecterVonBaren26 votes

Teemo : Who better to strike down a god than the devil?

spyofheavens1 votes

Bard is the only unique champ release last year , the new champs and reworks all fell pretty generic.

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

I disagree on that.

Gangplank kept his identity but added a neat new mechanic, even if it didn't fit theme-wise. Fiora would be amazing if she just didn't have the heal. Poppy was great. Illaoi was pretty cool. etc.

There is capacity for cool design. There should just be more of them that sync with theme.

KaisadiIIa4 votes

That moment when you realize Fiora and Aatrox could swap their ultimates and suddenly they would fit far more thematically (and Aatrox would be far better).

Hyrum Graff4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KnJONU5V,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-13T02:37:58.696+0000)

you could have just written "people don't explode into trees" and i'd be on board

but you had to insult Bard didn't you?

Name checks out.

Gapybo28 votes

I think this is extremely subjective on your part and a bit hypocritical when you point one champions mistakes but then those identical "mistakes" are positive for another champion. You obviously know what will net the up votes. I would disagree about Jhinn being a failure thematically. His entire point is about the discrepancy between what he sees and what we see. There is no art in what he does but he has an illusion there is. We should see his artistic elements in his animations and VO not in his abilities. His kit is about him being a cold-blooded killer. I think his VO and animations will make this more obvious. But yea better ignore what might in the end actually establish champions thematic.

Strawberrycocoa17 votes

I was hoping his kit would have the Turn-You-Into-A-Tree and Make Your Wounds Glowy elements from the trailers, but apparently naw. :(

Wolfenstin4 votes

What I got from the trailer was that the deaths with glowing wounds and trees growing out of people was what he himself saw in his own mind, hence the 'Mind of the Virtuoso.'

In reality, he's just shooting people dead, but thinks it's amazing and beautiful. He has no magic guns that turn people into trees, he's just a lunatic with an artistic love for death. It makes sense to me.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

{quoted}

I was hoping his kit would have the Turn-You-Into-A-Tree and Make Your Wounds Glowy elements from the trailers, but apparently naw. :(

The reveal was missing something. Gypsylord confirmed that Jhin's E has a passive that makes a flower bloom from a corpse on kill, granting vision and slowing surrounding enemies, then detonating and dealing damage.

Azteryz11 votes

Riot Gypsy, the designer of Jhin, posted this on reddit recently:

A) The reveal is missing something that got locked in too late for localization. "Beauty in Death - Killing blows spawn a blooming flower on the corpse that reveals and slows enemies nearby before detonating for damage."

^^^^^^^^

ModCaptainMårvelous12 votes

Again: That's more particle than his kit being a virtuoso's kit.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Real quick, have to ask because it's kinda important, what do YOU think a Virtuoso is?

Decrit11 votes

This is upvote catering at its finest. A post filled with subjective narrow-sighted judgement on a part of a champion that not yet revealed and that is not yet available to play.

This is what boards is about.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

It's an opinion.

And you know what? It's not upvote catering considering the response I'm getting. If you have FEK installed (Which I'm assuming you don't), go look. The votes are pretty damn split. Some agree, some don't.

If I wanted to upvote cater I'd talk about how amazing Jhin is and how excited I am for him. But I'm not. I'm talking about my opinion on how Jhin doesn't have a clear connect between the character we're given and the kit they've shown us. This has nothing to do with playing him or hearing his VO.

BTW, remember that this is all opinion. All I did was explain why I thought this way. Sorry it doesn't match up with yours.

Decrit3 votes

I can totally accept an opinion different from mine, but only if it is exposed properly.

In your main post you put on the table different qualities of different champions, which i can agree and disagree on, but at the same time you posed them in a very aggressive way: you harass the champions, you harass Riot, and here in the boards is very easy to gather interest with such negativity - it is proven by looking at all the most "popular" posts. People sometimes are frustrated, and this kind of posts is a great clickbait here in gameplay. This also makes the post more and more worthless the more it lasts, losing its shine at the end.

This hides the fact that the reveal at the moment is incomplete. There is no personal stance here, it' s objective - you are arguing how the theme of a champion is portrayed when the theme itself is not fully exposed yet, using as excuse that you are basing yourself on what the kit does.

But then here there is also a fault: you can' t do that so easily. Not every champion plays mechanically the same way as it lives, since that is portrayed through graphics ( animation and particles ) _combined _ to the kit and how the champion itself plays. This is a necessity because this is what the game is.

If they were to create an artist champion, let' s say a painter for example, you would likely see it move strokes with its brush in order to create magic but then again it would be again exactly like yet another mage, that casts stuff with a magic wand mechanically. Because champions in this game needs to do stuff. Sometimes manages to be strictly related to what the character is, like Illaoi as you exalt her so much, sometimes the kit is something apparently not remarkable but is supported by a totally different idea and a different way to play, and these support each other creating something new.

It' s not much about the cut and dry characteristics of a single detail, is the experience derived from the emerging property of the whole.

Android Grimm9 votes

I vote we change Katarina from an assassin to a ballerina. Change her Q from bouncing blades to dancing blades and BOOM! BALLERINA! Cause that's literally the closes thing Jhin gets to being a virtuoso, the names of his abilities.

World Ender9 votes

You mention that it has nothing to do with VO, or kit, or lore, or gameplay, yet you compare all of these things in your post. The champion has not even been released on the PBE and you're already criticizing it. Well done.

Miraweave8 votes

Kalista - SPOOKEH SPIRIT UF VENGUNCE....that hops around and has little to do with those she makes a pact with sans ult. What if we replaced her hop-skip-jump with something more substantial? Her soulbound dying gives her massively increased damage/attack speed because she's fueled by revenge? Her soulbound hitting a spear-filled enemy increases the duration? There' is SO MUCH that can be done with this concept but...once again, bigfoot spear lady.

Welp you got my upvote that's for sure

Borfin7 votes

Saw a captain marvelous thread. Resisted urge to upvote. read it. Upvoted anyway.

Why did I bother reading when I knew I was going to agree 100%

MunchCrunchLunch5 votes

his kit is definitely more generic than I expected. but going overboard might lead to abusive things. for example illaoi E. but am still excited. I like that he has teemo shrooms/

Valor Bot5 votes

I agree with you about Kindred, I think their "duality" aspect could've been played up a bit more in their gameplay by having Wolf be the merciless killer (assassin) and Kindred be the coup de grace (support/marksman). It would've made for some extremely interesting gameplay, IMO.

Planet Zoo Gamer4 votes

I personally disagree with you when it comes to bard, but as you stated, open to interpretation. Everything else I completely agree with, and after Azir's & Velkoz's kits strengthened them as characters, as of late new champion's kits could be applied to anything. I unintentionally think this symbolizes Riot's loss of passion for creative value, seeing as how Jhin, being a deranged artist, has nothing remotely artistic about him apart from design. It has no passion, and that's exactly what art is based around.

Solidair34 votes

I feel like his E's passive is artistic. Also, I do think the VO is a big factor here. The thing he's a "virtuoso" about is killing and how he perceives it and how he does it. That's more about personality than anything. Also, his Q is very "precise" in the way it moves.

I dunno, I just think it's a bit early to say he doesn't match up at all.

Meep Man4 votes

This post is a failure. We don't even have his lore, his quotes, his ANYTHING yet. All we have is a vague teaser and his abilities. How can you speak on his character in any way without having at least ONE of these things first.

Also, I disagree on Ekko and Bard. Ekko's kit reflects his time side pretty well with his W, E, and R, while exploring another bit with his Q. Need explanation? Ekko W is a Time Bubble. He freezes them in time! Ekko's E is a Phase Shift. Meaning he instantly speeds up time in order to seemingly teleport next to his target. I don't need to explain his R.

Now to Bard. Wandering Caretaker. He protects the individuals of the universe from certain death when they are nearing it... I don't know how you don't see this in him. The Wandering Caretaker. Everything about his kit screams this except for his Q, but he needed at least one combat ability or he would never be used. The Wandering Caretaker. I'm not sure you have played Bard if you see his kit is just shiny yellow particles and don't revolve around saving his allies.

Heck, I could even argue for Kindred. Her entire identity is her passive! It's that target's time for death and now she has to hunt them since they obviously don't and won't accept it. Her Q chases them, her W gives her the "dual champion" feel with Wolf, and her E helps with chasing as well. Her R makes sure targets who's time for death is NOT now (since they decide who dies). Running from death. The grim reaper that you want to run from. The Hunt! Death is hunting! The Eternal Hunters! That's Kindred!

The only example you gave that I agree with is Kalista, but even she at least has something with the whole "Sealing a pack" through her passive. Her passive lets her endlessly chase her targets, but it didn't turn out to be used that way. Kalista's kit FITS her identity, it just didn't end up being USED like her identity.

TL;DR Stop getting ahead of yourself. We haven't seen Jhin's backstory. We haven't heard many of his quotes. We haven't even played him yet. SLOW YOUR ROLL THERE!

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

But you don't even know his character yet...

That's why people are referencing the VO. We haven't even seen his lore... It's too early to be making posts like this. Sorry. I know, ahead of time, that you disagree, but I feel the need to post just because it sounds like you are thinking that WE are confused. It's not that I think his VO is gonna flesh him into the character that you imagine; it's that I think the character you are imagining may be way off.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

That's fine. Like this is an opinion (As almost everything is on the boards) and you're totally free to disagree with it.

I just explained what I felt (It doesn't connect to the teaser/build-up we've been given) and why I felt so (Particle characterization and such). I'd hardly say that my word is law, considering the debate and several different replies I'm getting.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

I mean, yeah... and that's fine, I guess... I just think the entire thing is wrong, since we really don't know what, exactly, Riot is going for yet. Just because it doesn't match our expectations doesn't mean it is a failure. It can't fail until it least launches...

ShieldWarrior4 votes

logged in just to downvote this.

Baron of Bread4 votes

I think you fail to understand who and what champions are (at least in some cases).

Kalista is a spirit of vengeance, but focuses on vengeance for betrayal. She is also the spirit of an ancient warrior who you can't escape no matter how much you run. While hopping doesn't seem that relevant to her theme, it allows her to stick to targets at a comfortable range and thus prevents her enemy's escape while showcasing her martial prowess. Her watcher things help her find her targets, and she should have plenty of spirits from the pacts she has made. Her W passive is another thing that sells the pact, bonus damage if she and her pact-mate hit the same enemy seems pretty fitting. Her kit fits very well for her as a nuanced character, but won't if you over simplify her.

Bard is a cosmic caretaker of the universe. He rushes about the cosmos stopping catastrophes and preventing the use of artifacts. Saving people and taking sides isn't his job and the way that his ult is rather impartial about enemies/allies is part of that. His wandering play style fits him rather well since that is what he is, the Wandering Caretaker. So what if you are the ADC? Bard goes where he is needed and collects the artifacts that are scattered about the world (chimes), he doesn't particularly care about you. And he has meeps which are not particularly solid to his theme in my opinion but oh well, can't have everything.

Ekko is a tech-mancer gang-kid with time-related specialties. Is he a techno-time-wizard? Partially, but that isn't his whole character. He is a genius when it comes to contraptions and especially so when it comes to time manipulating devices, but he can still make the other ones. Things that speed him up or slow enemies down seem very in-character for him, as well as devices that he manually tosses about. Plus he hits stuff with a blunt instrument, he is pretty ghetto and he should be.

Kindred is an embodiment of death, once marked they will hunt you and you will die but the way that you die is up to you. If you want to run away your death will be brutal, and Kindred will use their Q and E to make sure you can't escape. If you let it happen it is quick and simple, but in game you will almost never see a "Lamb" death because nobody doesn't fight back or try to run. The ult fits fairly simply, death has deemed that it is not time for those in the circle. Their W is also reasonably simple in that it makes the double champion a double champion (or as close as there is). I don't see how you could represent the W in a way that is not another thing attacking your enemies with you but if you have one let me know.

I agree with your assessment of Illaoi for the most part, but lets see how she holds up to that first kit test you have.

We have a tech-based soul collector: Passive is essence catching machines they toss out, Q is a handheld version, W is a remote sensor for the machines, E is a device with a telescoping sampler that captures a soul fragment to be beat on and to mark a vessel a part of the machine goes with the soul fragment when it returns to the owner, the R is just a bunch of machines deployed explosively.

We also have a witch: Passive is animating trees, Q is a pulse of dark magics, W is a staff attack, E is extending a magic tendril with a doll and then turning the doll into a personification of the person hit, R is several trees suddenly sprouting from the ground.

I am not saying that Illaoi has bad kit thematics, just that kits can usually be re-skinned in such a way as to fit a different thematic.

So far we don't have a full lore for Jhin. All we have is his trailer, his teaser with Vi and company, and his short bio that is visible on the PBE. So far he is a murderer for hire (or fun) that is a perfectionist and sees himself as an artist. There is at least one gameplay video of him out.

While his kit doesn't exactly have a ton of "art" in it, it feels pretty perfectionist to me. There is so much setup and planning in doing much of anything with him that it feels there could be some form of perverse art in using it to its most effective. You could use his abilities willy-nilly, but then you would be wasting such potential. A Q that doesn't kill at least once on the way is poor execution, not punishing an E proc is just criminal with the range on W, setting up your ult so that the enemy can walk out of it looks like it would feel like a painful waste, and you have to use all four shots before reloading Whisper so you might as well hit your opponent with it.

Sure he doesn't scream artist in the traditional sense, but anyone can see art in their work so long as it has some amount of perfectionism involved. He is a virtuoso of murder and I think they pull it off well enough.

TLDR: They have kit-character unity in the recent champions to a reasonable extent, including Jhin. You just have to look past their broad arch-types to see some of the more nuanced bits of their characters.

Kuzja13 votes

This champion doesn't seem to make sense. You guys know how KogMaw keeps saying that he's hungry and wants to eat stuff? Well then why the hell is he not eating stuff?! He's shooting all his guts out of his stomach! That's why he's always hungry! There should be a passive or ability where he eats something in game. Not just life steal abilities but actually eating something.

Muted Summoner1 votes

{quoted}

http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/3054/240/original.jpg

#DISCLAIMER: THIS IS IN NO WAY REFLECTIVE OF THE CHAMPION'S KIT BEING BALANCED AND FUN/NOT FUN. A CHAMPION WHO IS A THEMATIC FAILURE CAN STILL HAVE A DECENT KIT.

#EDIT: People keep telling me to wait for the VO. Kindred has an amazing VO and a kit that has zero to do with her. Illaoi has a great VO and a good kit. THE VO IS A NON-FACTOR IN WHY I AM DISAPPOINTED.

With that huge disclaimer in mind...I'm disappointed Riot.

Jhin is the latest in a long line of failures that strives to create a unique character, give him a compelling identity in the universe and hype him up as something completely new...yet his kit completely fails to capture the identity of a virtuoso. Lemme start with recent examples to show what I mean: One I consider a success, one a failure.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Illaoi_0.jpg

Illaoi has, in my opinion, been the shining star when it comes to expressing character in kit during the 2015 year.

Illaoi is portrayed, in lore, as a strong priestess who carries the weight of both a metal idol and her very god. Her voice work talks of how she tests those she sees as needing a test. She encourages and guides others, sometimes through force and sometimes through words. Illaoi is in every respect a woman who knows what she wants and just how to get it. This, in her kit, is perfectly reflective. In my mind, a successful kit has two points to it:

  • How difficult would it be to put this on another champion with an entirely different theme?
  • How much does this character fit with the kit they are trying to portray?

I thought for a while on Illaoi's kit, trying to find fault or a way I could shoehorn. The only possible idea I came up with was a shaman who used a massive totem...and that's basically what Illaoi is. She channels her god through brute force. She tears out your soul with the long arm of Nagakeboros. Her ult is a last ditch attempt to enforce the will of her god by bringing it to furition in the rift. If you removed Illaoi's kit, it could be done...but it wouldn't be as successful as it is now.

In my eyes, Illaoi's kit is what a kit should be: It plays well enough (Balanced or not), it reinforces her identity and it's something you cannot easily remove from Illaoi. Now, let's look at something I consider a failure.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Kindred_0.jpg

Kindred's kit is a disgrace to the visuals that Kindred provides. When hyped up, we were told we were getting a dual champion. This was death personified, a hunter who either grants a swift and merciful death or a painful, bloody end. Two sides of the same coin, a spirit that guides those into the afterlife. I, and many others, were pumped. What did we get?

Nothing. We got a champion who is just a champion. But it goes deeper than that. Remember that "How difficult could it be to put this on a different character" rule? Imagine if Kindred wasn't a spirit. Instead she was a bounty-hunting, agile yordle. The ultimate may need replacing but, otherwise, you can completely remove Kindred from this kit and have a kit that thematically works with another character. It's extremely disheartening. "But Cap, what about Wolf being used in W!? What about the whispers and particles and-"

Kindred is the worst example, imo, of what I like to call "Particle Characterization". Riot isn't selling her character and personality through her kit. They're selling her through the particles. Wolf attacking in the circle. Runic symbols of black and white over enemies. She is made more by the particles and model than she is by her kit. That's disgraceful. A champion should work organically with her kit. Illaoi's kit enhances her character. Kindred's kit feels like an afterthought on a champion Riot knew would sell.

Don't believe me on this "particle characterization"?

Ekko - Timey whimey projectiles and chrono-esque patterns. Q makes zero sense as a time bandit, W is only kept in place by "Look it's a paradox/copy of him in the past" and E has zero to do with time. If you told me Ekko was just a teleporting thug with gravity controls, I'd buy it.

Bard - Sorta forgive this because "celestial defender" is rather...well, open to interpretation. Still, I never got a feel for celestial defender. Bard isn't defending or warping reality/time/space to protect others except in his ult. He just has fancy golden projectiles and mystic-looking things.

Kalista - SPOOKEH SPIRIT UF VENGUNCE....that hops around and has little to do with those she makes a pact with sans ult. What if we replaced her hop-skip-jump with something more substantial? Her soulbound dying gives her massively increased damage/attack speed because she's fueled by revenge? Her soulbound hitting a spear-filled enemy increases the duration? There' is SO MUCH that can be done with this concept but...once again, bigfoot spear lady.

And now we come to Jhin.

Replace Jhin. Remove him completely from the equation. Did that? Ok. Now imagine that Jhin is now Scrumpy, The Zaun Commando.

Do you see what I mean?

Jhin's kit has little to do with actual virtuoso-ing. He has no artistic style to his kit's gameplay. It's all supposedly told in the particles. Jhin is a non-factor. You can replace him with a cyborg gunner and nothing would be lost. This artistic killer, this "beautiful sadist" is a god damn sham and I'm extremely disappointed in Riot. Yes, I understand that kits are difficult to make. I saw the Bard removed abilities, I completely understand...but for god's sake, PLEASE stop trying to connect a character's kit and character only by particles and art. You've proven that you can do it (See: Braum Yasuo TahmKench Jinx ), just please keep doing it.

TL;DR: Riot, as of late, is trying to sell champion-kit unity through little more than particles. I am disappointed because they've proven they can do so much better.

I agree with you on Jhin. I'd honestly expected him to be a support with a gun. Something new for the role. I just don't see how the highly skilled in music comes in either. As for Gameplay aspect I don't see how his crit-atk speed-move speed/etc reallocation is new and with a possible different item build. Items barely change a characters gameplay pattern and instead perhaps enhance their gameplay slightly sometimes depending on the items.

As for his skills I like them, they look fun. I'll try him out on the PBE and I like the reload mechanic and I hope I see a bit more of it but I'm disappointed in how its not used in his kit. I also hope he gets a Bandito Skin like Fiddlesticks as he looks similar to Fiddlesticks Bandito skin. Wouldn't mind seeing a Bandito Bot lane of course I think Fiddlesticks needs some buffs (heh).

Kindred as well needed more besides her ult for life and death and her passive gathering and well....More Wolf Interaction..Because when I play Kindred I keep thinking its Lambs name and Wolf is an afterthought. The VO is great on kindred and the kit isn't bad gameplay wise but thematic I agree with you. As for Illaoi I think she is incredibly Boring with a good VO. Her Ultimate is a literal mess on my screen. I never feel like she does any damage unless her tentacles hit me or I get chained with a Warwick/Malphite Ult during her ult or a Lux Snare/etc. She isn't horrible but I find her boring and perhaps need of a few buffs or some control on her tentacles, I am not fond of having a character do things by themselves with no control from my input but I'm not sure I haven't played her at all besides on my smurf and I just couldn't go on any more with her. I was disappointed. I was impressed with her look but her game play for me fell flat on me.

Ekko seems fine imo, his Q idk what it represents...its just a weird boomerang that slows time on who ever is hit, W stops time or slows it, E allows him to fast forward time for him, I guess R rewinds time. Hes not some time master and he fits it fine imo. Bard - I have no idea wtf this guy is supposed to represent. I like him but I don't know what his purpose is. He collects relics? Kallista is fine - She gets more powerful and gives more power to her soul bound with the R and her team mate procing her passive extra damage hit. There is more that can be done with the soul bound. Such as the W active. Why its summons a flying scouting head is beyond me. Either way I'm up voting because I mostly agree with you.

Sevixys12 votes

People seem to not understand the meaning of 'virtuoso'.

Virtuoso means: highly skilled in music or other art. A famous example of a 'virtuoso' is italian niccolo paganini, roughly the most famous violinist of all times. He was a highly technical violinist, so talented that it seemed like magic. Additionally, he was particularly slender and dark person. (and personality was overly emotional and furious, making him seem like a witch)

In my opinion Jhin imagines himself as a 'new paganini' (though he isn't). Even his outfit resembles Paganini-sh darkness. However, he IS highly skilled in the art he loves: killing. (v for vendetta!)

Every 'virtuoso' sees himself and his art as something divine. Jhin is not an exception. He is an archetype of an artist, lost in madness..

This is my point of view and in my opinion, Jhin is a great success!

supermuffin283 votes

Thank you for this.

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