The reward for having a more complicated kit...

Mira Arya Enthe·Oct 5, 2016·35 votes·1,583 views

...is having more tools in the kit. No need to bloat numbers.

34 Comments

TyrekGoldenspearOct 5, 201610 votes

So what rewards to simpler champs get?

Cuz from what I can tell complex champs get the ability to outplay simple champs, yet the simple champs have tools to prevent the complex ones from getting too out of hand.

Take Tibbers for instance.

Annie can shut down Yasou, a complex champ.

This seems to be the relationship between simple and complex champs to me.

ÐelofashtOct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So what rewards to simpler champs get?

Cuz from what I can tell complex champs get the ability to outplay simple champs, yet the simple champs have tools to prevent the complex ones from getting too out of hand.

Take Tibbers for instance.

Annie can shut down Yasou, a complex champ.

This seems to be the relationship between simple and complex champs to me.

But this is a poor example as in plat and above normally Yasuo will beat Annie, this is due to that skill of the player. In fact one may argue that Yasuo actually counters Annie, and not the inverse. Just take a look at things that are often considered counters then look at their win percentages against those champions.

There is no benefit in having a simple kit in a game like this, just make them all difficult slightly overloaded kits, makes them easier to balance against each other.

PermabannedGarenOct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But this is a poor example as in plat and above normally Yasuo will beat Annie, this is due to that skill of the player. In fact one may argue that Yasuo actually counters Annie, and not the inverse. Just take a look at things that are often considered counters then look at their win percentages against those champions.

There is no benefit in having a simple kit in a game like this, just make them all difficult slightly overloaded kits, makes them easier to balance against each other.

http://champion.gg/matchup/Annie/Yasuo/Middle

lol

AnidanOct 5, 20162 votes

in plat+, Champion.gg says Annie has a 58% win-rate against Yasuo. Not sure that Yasuo is really countering her.

complex champions have a lot of tools in their kit, but simple champions can sometimes say 'fuck you' to a lot of them because they may not have the mechanics the tools are meant to counter.

ÐelofashtOct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

in plat+, Champion.gg says Annie has a 58% win-rate against Yasuo. Not sure that Yasuo is really countering her.

complex champions have a lot of tools in their kit, but simple champions can sometimes say 'fuck you' to a lot of them because they may not have the mechanics the tools are meant to counter.

To everyone quoting Champion.gg, there are some irregularities on the site in general. I would try comparing that data to other sites to see if it's consistent (which I have found it varies GREATLY, and then again from patch to patch and day to day). Short story, take what you will from a site, but I have seen tons of players pick Yasuo into Annie and destroy her in lane.

Spicy RiceOct 6, 20161 votes

Assuming both players are at an equal skill level, the annie should never straight up lose against a yasuo.

Rımuru TempestOct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So what rewards to simpler champs get?

Cuz from what I can tell complex champs get the ability to outplay simple champs, yet the simple champs have tools to prevent the complex ones from getting too out of hand.

Take Tibbers for instance.

Annie can shut down Yasou, a complex champ.

This seems to be the relationship between simple and complex champs to me.

Yasuo, complex.. mhm...

Teridax68Oct 6, 20161 votes

This is mostly valid as a general rule. Outplay options for more complex or loaded champions tend to be more diverse, whereas outplay options for simpler champions tend to be more intense. Blitz's play/outplay potential mostly boils down to his hook, but landing or missing it can singlehandedly determine the course of a fight. Meanwhile, a champion like Jayce has a ton of different options for engaging, disengaging, poking, trading, etc., but no single ability of his will completely trash his opponent on its own. There's value in either option (simpler champions get to feel amazing without necessarily having to jump through too many hoops, more complex champions get to feel like they have far more interesting choices at every moment in a fight) as well as drawbacks (champions that are too simplistic often end up being very binary, champions with too many options tend to feel either impossible to outplay properly, or too weak to feel satisfying at any given moment), so it's usually a matter of finding a happy medium.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 5, 20167 votes

yeah you like that 200% lee sin ult ratio?

Mistress ShyvanaOct 5, 20165 votes

{quoted}

yeah you like that 200% lee sin ult ratio?

xd

Bruh I ate a 800 damage kick earlier from a full AD Lee.

I'm just like "WHY?"

MunchCrunchLunchOct 5, 20162 votes

you got off easy i've taken some 1100 lee kicks and i was a bruiser.

Mistress ShyvanaOct 5, 20163 votes

{quoted}

you got off easy i've taken some 1100 lee kicks and i was a bruiser.

Dear god.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 5, 20162 votes

he was pretty fed but the scaling is quite unnecessary with that kind of base damage

i mean i think that lee sin is trash because people don't know how to play him. not because hes weak. hes not hes very verstile with the last few buffs. he takes no damage in the jungle and can solo drag very early.

SpoofghoulOct 5, 20161 votes

well i can live with that

whats more opressive

adc's have that as an average basic attack lategame some even deal double that damage

but no, tanks are too tanky

AnidanOct 5, 20161 votes

how the hell are you taking 1100 as a bruiser? The base is 600 at max rank and the ratio is 200%. Assuming no armor, a Lee with 250 bonus AD (a decently high number actually) will do 1100. Again, to someone with no armor. The only way to take an 1100 kick is to actually be the victim of collision damage with a tank and even then it's unlikely given that champions receive, what, 50% damage reduction from 100 armor? Meaning for that to go through the actual intended damage would have to be 2200, which his ult is wholly incapable of.

NuparuOct 6, 20162 votes

I play AD Lee, see me when you get a 1400 damage kick.

Spicy RiceOct 6, 20161 votes

To be fair, a full ad lee is one of the squishiest things in existance

SpecterVonBarenOct 6, 20161 votes

I've learned to accept that. What I can't accept is them arbitrarily adding a scaling based on the bonus health of the enemy he kicks.

Stars ShaperOct 5, 20164 votes

Complicated kit doesn't always mean "you have a lot of things". It also means (usually) that you need to do more things in order to achieve something.

LuggOct 5, 20162 votes

EXACTLY! I have been saying this for years. The more abilities you have, the more options you have for out plays. Those champs should fall in the "jack of all trades, master of none" category. They have built in counterplay, they shouldn't be stronger than champs that have simple kits from just pure numbers.

BananaJannanaOct 5, 20161 votes

Thank you for that general statement

Mira Arya EntheOct 5, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for that general statement

It's a concept people don't understand. If a champion has a dash, that makes their kit more complicated than a champion without a dash. but they also get a dash in their kit. It is in itself the reward for it's own difficulty. There is no reason they need to be better in any other way. They don't need to be 'rewarded' for having a dash.

BananaJannanaOct 5, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KlcX51kM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-10-05T05:12:46.056+0000)

It's a concept people don't understand. If a champion has a dash, that makes their kit more complicated than a champion without a dash. but they also get a dash in their kit. It is in itself the reward for it's own difficulty. There is no reason they need to be better in any other way. They don't need to be 'rewarded' for having a dash.

Again. Tell me a champion you're referring to. All 110+ of them are not relevant to that statement.

Mira Arya EntheOct 5, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Again. Tell me a champion you're referring to. All 110+ of them are not relevant to that statement.

I'm not, I am referring to a balance concept. If you give a champion another tool, it makes their kit more complicated, but also more powerful. That is why despite numerical strength a lot of simple champions are not picked in pro play or high level play. They lack utilities and outplay potential, they lack tools. As such, champions who are simpler to play, to be balanced with more complicated champions at high levels of play, actually would have to be stronger. Because everyone gold and above has gotten good at most of their champions mechanics, so mechanically complex champions automatically become more rewarding due to the fact that they have more strength in their kit in terms of tools. A simple champion has to have a massive numerical advantage to be worth picking, or a loaded champion must have a massive numerical disadvantage to be less worth picking.

Specific champions are irrelevant, it is a general concept.

GeshultzOct 5, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KlcX51kM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-05T05:29:59.349+0000)

I'm not, I am referring to a balance concept. If you give a champion another tool, it makes their kit more complicated, but also more powerful. That is why despite numerical strength a lot of simple champions are not picked in pro play or high level play. They lack utilities and outplay potential, they lack tools. As such, champions who are simpler to play, to be balanced with more complicated champions at high levels of play, actually would have to be stronger. Because everyone gold and above has gotten good at most of their champions mechanics, so mechanically complex champions automatically become more rewarding due to the fact that they have more strength in their kit in terms of tools. A simple champion has to have a massive numerical advantage to be worth picking, or a loaded champion must have a massive numerical disadvantage to be less worth picking.

Specific champions are irrelevant, it is a general concept.

Very true as seen with nidalee being pick or banned in LCS with all her tools to be useful vs other junglers that don't see play at all due to lack of tools like warwick. Another example is kalista was pick or ban in LCS until she was nerfed to the ground due to have so many tools in her kit compared to average ADC.

PokladnicaZlaOct 5, 20161 votes

Maybe I'm too dumb for this thread,but how does a dash make someone's kit more complicating on it's own?

I mean you have a champion with a dash and a champ with a skillshoot.Who's kit would be more complex based on the above?

Shouldn't the whole arsenal of champion determen if he/she/it is more difficult to play?

crippler38Oct 5, 20164 votes

pretty sure it was just a general statement, here's another example then

champion A has all point and click damage abilities

champion B does almost as much damage as champion A but has a dash escape to make up for it.

People who are ultra bad and can't figure out they do less damage with less damage abilities then complain that champion B is terrible and can't 1v1 champion A, so riot buffs champion B making champion B do damage closer to champion A.

now that might of been put in a confusing way so I'll say it again in another since I tend to confuse people. Basically think of it this way, Azir is disgustingly overloaded because of all his tools what with his mobility, engage, disengage, cc, waveclear, map control, zone control, and all that nonsense. But he's hard so it's balanced right?

Nidalee has a lot of damage, a lot of mobility, a lot of sustain, a lot of zone control with her traps and high play making potential, but she's hard so it's balanced right?

compare these two to say, I dunno annie, why isn't annie picked in the LCS? she has point and click cc, respectable damage that's arguably higher burst than azir and she has a steroid! But oh wait she has no escapes and her utility past damage and one stun is really really low! Azir also does plenty of damage on his own! Why on earth would you pick annie over azir when he does more things for you and the only real cost is he's difficult once you're good enough to master him?!

now look at nidalee, why would you pick say WW once you master nidalee? sure you have a point and click suppress but other than that you have just damage and sustain, no utility or mobility whatsoever!

there are exceptions to this like nunu or udyr who have great clear times and such and make up for their lack of utility for massive objective and farm pressure since they can shut down the more complicated characters due to their basically saying 'you get half the farm I do' by existing once you git gud but for the most part a more complicated character that does the same thing is better!

A much more accurate example I just thought of is between garen and darius, even pre rework why would you pick garen over darius when darius has-

a pull to bring people into him

aoe damage just like garen (that's much easier to apply)

a dot

similar ultimates (executes)

and a point and click cc (slow < silence but still)

Only reason to really pick garen is because his stats were higher thanks to his W's damage reduction, so he'd be the tankier of the two! However most of the time you'd still want Dar because he had the added bonus of a displacement in his kit thus giving him the ability to engage on people outside of surprising them!

more options should mean less of something else! you shouldn't be able to do all the things one champion can do, and do it about the same, but have something else too!

I hope I didn't end up confusing you with my nonsense rambling, and I also hope I helped shed a little bit of light on the situation.

My apologies if I failed, enjoy your day.

Spicy RiceOct 6, 20161 votes

Being able to reposition oneself allows ability to outplay.

BananaJannanaOct 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KlcX51kM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-05T05:29:59.349+0000)

I'm not, I am referring to a balance concept. If you give a champion another tool, it makes their kit more complicated, but also more powerful. That is why despite numerical strength a lot of simple champions are not picked in pro play or high level play. They lack utilities and outplay potential, they lack tools. As such, champions who are simpler to play, to be balanced with more complicated champions at high levels of play, actually would have to be stronger. Because everyone gold and above has gotten good at most of their champions mechanics, so mechanically complex champions automatically become more rewarding due to the fact that they have more strength in their kit in terms of tools. A simple champion has to have a massive numerical advantage to be worth picking, or a loaded champion must have a massive numerical disadvantage to be less worth picking.

Specific champions are irrelevant, it is a general concept.

Simply put: Skillshots are harder to land than point-click abilities. Therefore, they do more damage to provide reward for taking the risk of missing. Simple champions are simple because they were made for new players and players who want to chill. Complex champions are complex so that serious players can use them and have more impact in games. Having a simple champion do as high damage as a complex champion will remove the need for having skill at the game.

LovelleOct 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KlcX51kM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-05T05:29:59.349+0000)

I'm not, I am referring to a balance concept. If you give a champion another tool, it makes their kit more complicated, but also more powerful. That is why despite numerical strength a lot of simple champions are not picked in pro play or high level play. They lack utilities and outplay potential, they lack tools. As such, champions who are simpler to play, to be balanced with more complicated champions at high levels of play, actually would have to be stronger. Because everyone gold and above has gotten good at most of their champions mechanics, so mechanically complex champions automatically become more rewarding due to the fact that they have more strength in their kit in terms of tools. A simple champion has to have a massive numerical advantage to be worth picking, or a loaded champion must have a massive numerical disadvantage to be less worth picking.

Specific champions are irrelevant, it is a general concept.

Doesn't it drive you up a wall when you see a champ like Lee Sin get buffs, when there are plenty of champions that are just not played at all?

ZydronOct 5, 20161 votes

And simple champs have reliability and usually less setup required to use their kit optimally

SiG DxDOct 5, 20161 votes

Garen reward?

it be lìke thatOct 5, 20161 votes

he gets to q silence into a bladestorm then you hit them with fucking ion pulse cannon mixed with the thing that destroyed Alderaan.

Teridax68Oct 6, 20161 votes

This is true, though this also often comes at a cost to the champion's accessibility, which often translates into a bigger win rate difference across elos. Champions like Lee Sin, Kalista and Azir are notorious for having extreme differences in viability depending on mastery, pro play, etc., because of the sheer number of tricks and tools to memorize in their kits. To be fair, simpler champions can also have the same problem, as is the case with Shen, Evelynn and Ryze, but high kit complexity almost inevitably creates some kind of mastery-to-win rate gap, which can make balancing more difficult in that respect.

It's also worth noting that there's a complexity threshold past which a champion begins to do too many things at once, which places them into generalist territory and also makes them harder to balance, because they can't really be allowed to be top-tier at any single thing they do, if they get to do more than everyone else. Elise and Lee Sin are the poster children for overloaded jungler kits that have often landed them in very unsatisfying states, and do-everything supports like Sona (not a complicated champion, although she does have a mass of different effects), Lulu and Karma have all found themselves struggling to see competitive play when their numbers aren't bloated.

I think Riot's been progressively finding which window of complexity works for everyone, so hopefully we'll continue having kits that offer a lot of things to do, while still being intuitive enough to be learned well at all (or at least most) elos, and niche enough to be more easily balanceable. We're long past the age of simplistic champions like Warwick, Garen and release Annie, but hopefully we won't be seeing too many champions as loaded as Azir, Ekko or Kalista in the future.