Juggernaut=/=Low MS

Malicious Metal·Dec 13, 2016·33 votes·2,186 views

So, a common misconception is that Juggernauts are slow moving balls of hate and destruction. Yes, they're immobile but it doesn't equate to moving at a snail's pace, they lack dashes and blinks but they're usually rather fast (except ONE certain outliner)

Juggernauts are Melee and if they were to have low MS they would never be able to do their job effectively. Every single Juggernaut either has high base MS, Speed boosts and/or build MS items like BC or DMP He's got top notch base MS and a lot of speed with his W Bear stance, MS passive and great base MS Base Ms and Burnout Decent base MS and speed buff Pretty great base MS and extreme synergy with cleaver Good base MS and mini-dash Base MS and Q Great base MS and ultimate

Just wanted to clear this up, Juggernauts are only slow in that they're STEADY and TELEGRAPHED, they're not necessarily slow in terms of MS

38 Comments

Teridax68Dec 13, 20164 votes

I completely agree with this. There is no conceivable way one can design a champion with the slowest movement speed in the game, plus low effective range, and expect them to not be hard-countered by kiting, and become extremely binary as a result. Juggernauts should definitely take time to enter fights, but at no point should it be possible to keep any champion, even non-juggernauts, from reaching you at all. Kiting is the reason why juggernauts are often pubstompers with very little competitive presence: at lower elos, players haven't mastered kiting enough to steer clear enough from juggernauts, who then get to destroy them, but at higher elos, kiting becomes so effective that it becomes possible, even likely, for a juggernaut to simply not be able to even touch some champions. Sure, kiting should, and will always be, a weakness of juggernauts, but kiting should only give squishy champions a head start against them, not deny them completely from having an impact.

While it was good of Riot to get the ball rolling with the Juggernaut Update, I think at this point we need to realize that the changes themselves were largely unsuccessful: out of the four champions that got reworked, only one can be described as being in a healthy state (i.e. Darius), and the others have either missed the mark on their gameplay (i.e. Garen, who still has no real niche), or ended up with serious identity problems (i.e. Skarner and Morde), on top of some very large remaining design issues. The design philosophy behind juggernauts has also only been partially successful: Yorick is an example of a successful juggernaut, if only because he has a lot more effective range than the rest, but Illaoi, while not totally unsuccessful, suffers from issues typical to the subclass, in that she's oppressive against melee champions and unprepared teams, but largely ineffective against ranged champions and comps that know how to kite her. "Weak against kiting" sounds good on paper, but in practice it has led to a subclass of champions that are extremely binary in their effectiveness, and that feel like they either deny agency to melee opponents, or have their own agency denied by ranged enemies.

In an ideal world, juggernauts should have DPS on par with marksmen, durability on par with tanks, and enough base speed to be able to reach any champion given enough time. They should be slow, low on CC, and heavily telegraphed, but they should still be able to make an impact even if they do get kited. At the same time, though, fighting them in melee range should not be a death sentence, and they should still leave openings for their enemies to exploit in order to mitigate their power, so that other melee champions don't have to feel like they have to either throw themselves into a blender or not fight at all. Darius is a good example of all this, because he can reach most opponents decently well, but also has a fair amount of counterplay to his power, which can be either mitigated or avoided completely through smart positioning. Similarly, Yorick has plenty of tools to reach even ranged opponents from long distances, but there's still plenty you can do to reduce his threat, such as by killing his ghouls. By contrast, someone like Garen can do literally nothing against you if you're even slightly out of his extremely short combat range, but if you somehow get caught, there's nothing you can do to prevent him from landing all of his damage. Mordekaiser has a bit more reach, but he's still in a state where he gets countered really hard by about one half of the champion roster, while countering the other half just as bad.

Jax CramerDec 13, 20162 votes

Top notch base ms are actually Yi and Pantheon with 355.

Trundle has 350 which is tied for 3rd along with Jax, Olaf, Kha Zix, Akali, Nunu, Shyvana, Nasus, Shaco and for some reason Lee Sin.

SteelMankindDec 13, 20163 votes

TOPPEST notch base ms is actually Cassio at level 18. 400 base.

KuroCaliberDec 13, 20162 votes

Udyr isn't a juggernaut, Trundle isn't a juggernaut, Voli isn't a juggernaut. Darius has to damage you to be able to catch you, (parodoxical), mundo is a tank not a juggernaut. Illaoi base MS is 340, it's fairly average, considering, her dash+attack range is a total of 350 units, not even enough to get to an ADC from their attack range. Garen speed buff is 30% for up to 3.5s, but his base movespeed is 340, and once he gets up to you, if you have no peel, he either kills you or gets kited, hard. Morde isn't even on this list because you know he defeats your point. Skarner has a speed up, but has 335 base ms, and his movespeed boost takes levels to actually use (0% at rank 1). I don't see the problem?

Critmaster GarenDec 13, 201611 votes

{quoted}

Udyr isn't a juggernaut, Trundle isn't a juggernaut, Voli isn't a juggernaut.

riot grouped them in with the other juggernauts. surprisingly even shyvana, even though she has a gapcloser.

though i have to say in illaois case, the mini dash on her w is just compensation for the longass animation time.

a movement speed buff in terms of this game is still incredibly slow.

KuroCaliberDec 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kjjkcxhh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-13T13:26:08.290+0000)

riot grouped them in with the other juggernauts. surprisingly even shyvana, even though she has a gapcloser.

Source?

Critmaster GarenDec 13, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Source?

thie class update blog post thingy.

edit.:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

KuroCaliberDec 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kjjkcxhh,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-13T13:44:52.131+0000)

thie class update blog post thingy.

edit.:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

In that post, Riot said:

The list is not the law - these are general guidelines that help us think and talk about the game; we’re not looking to homogenize our champions, in fact this helps identify which champions need to be better differentiated from each other. It’s okay to disagree with it - in fact, even internally there are many debates about which champion fits where; these are healthy discussions.

Furthemore, the reclassified Volibear as Diver.

Critmaster GarenDec 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Furthemore, the reclassified Volibear as Diver.

interesting. id have expected olaf or shyvana to be maybe reclassified as divers, but voli is surprising. his kit is as melee restricted as garens, and its not like hes any faster.

his main forms of cc are his flip and a slow, which isnt crazy on the utility side either. id say he fits the juggernaut archetype more than a lot of the others on that list.

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 14, 20162 votes

Shyvana is an juggernaut... but she's close of Divers. Its was said by riot recently with her "rework"

SteelMankindDec 13, 20161 votes

Why do you disagree with it? According to Riot, juggernauts are "melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility."

Like you said, the list is not the law (I myself disagree with Ekko being a skirmisher; I think of him as an assassin), but how are Voli/Udyr/Trundle/Mundo anything but juggernauts? They fit the desrciption well: they're relatively tanky, have high melee damage output, and rely on movespeed to get in range, meaning they're vulnerable to being kited.

ChaoticPineconeDec 14, 20161 votes

In my eyes, Voli, Udyr, and Mundo are more Diver than they are Juggernaught. Voli and Mundo, through their movespeed boosts and slows, are much more likely to get to and stick to a carry than, say, Illaoi or Darius. Udyr does the same with his movespeed boost, just with a stun instead of slows.

At some point, a distinction needs to be made. I dont see enough of a distinction between the playstyle of Renekton /Irelia that make them divers but Mundo/Udyr/Voli that dont make them divers. Or why Skarner is a Vanguard instead of a Juggernaught, or why Reksai is a Vanguard instead of a Diver. Or what makes Jax skirmisher, but not Nasus, Irelia, Aatrox, or Akali. Or what makes Diana a Diver instead of an Assassin or Skirmisher.

DragonSheaDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

In my eyes, Voli, Udyr, and Mundo are more Diver than they are Juggernaught. Voli and Mundo, through their movespeed boosts and slows, are much more likely to get to and stick to a carry than, say, Illaoi or Darius. Udyr does the same with his movespeed boost, just with a stun instead of slows.

At some point, a distinction needs to be made. I dont see enough of a distinction between the playstyle of Renekton /Irelia that make them divers but Mundo/Udyr/Voli that dont make them divers. Or why Skarner is a Vanguard instead of a Juggernaught, or why Reksai is a Vanguard instead of a Diver. Or what makes Jax skirmisher, but not Nasus, Irelia, Aatrox, or Akali. Or what makes Diana a Diver instead of an Assassin or Skirmisher.

I have to disagree with you. A diver is a champion that has a dash or quick means of getting to their target and get into the thick of things but need a tank or jugg to help them out. Voli, Udyr an Mundo lack a dash or hyper fast means of mobility to get to their targets but they do have good sticking power. reksai is a juggernaut because she can't dash to her target but does have the means to pursue them, and so does skarner but he is considered a vanguard because of his peeling potential and the fact he more of an aggressive champion. so it's safe to say he is more vanguard with a mix of warden and juggernaut in him.

Jax is a skirmisher because he has insane sustain damage and a powerful defensive tool that needs to be timed right, similar to fiora's parry and Yasuo's windwall. But Jax also has some diver aspects in that he can jump to a target and his ult's active increases his tankyness.

I'll have admit Diana is a bit of an oddball but she is more of a diver/assassin/skirmisher hybrid as she has burst, can dash to a target and has a shield.

SteelMankindDec 14, 20161 votes

Key distinction between Juggernauts and Divers is the mobility. Renekton and Irelia have dashes, Voli/Mundo/Udyr rely purely on movement speed. Udyr in particular has a ton of movement speed, and so in some situations it can SEEM like he's mobile, but it really isn't as good as a dash when you consider how much easier it is to get cucked by peel if all you can do is run at someone.

I would say that Voli, Udyr, and Mundo are pretty solidly in the juggernaut class. Skarner being a Vanguard over a Juggernaut is a MUCH closer call, and you're right to question it. I'm guessing the reason why Riot listed Skarner as a Vanguard is because they realized he's picked for catching people with his ult, not for being a beefy character who does damage. That being said, with how often Skarner builds Warrior and Triforce, its obvious that people DO play him for his damage output, so perhaps he SHOULD be classified as a juggernaut. Is he a Vanguard/Juggernaut or a Juggernaut/Vanguard? Riot thinks he's the former, but feel free to think of him as the latter.

Rek'Sai being a Vanguard over a Diver is likely due to him not building much damage beyond Titanic Hydra. Divers are supposed to build 1-2 real offensive items. Once again, Rek'Sai being a Vanguard/DIver over Diver/Vanguard is open to interpretation.

Skirmishers are characterized by being melee, super high DPS champs who build mostly damage, have short gap closers on a very low CD, and have conditional CC/defensive tricks so they don't die instantly. Nasus can't be a Skirmisher due to not having mobility (and being way too tanky). It's a closer call for Irelia and Aatrox, but I guess it's due to them not having the defensive tricks or bring able quickly kill tanks. Akali is better suited to bursting squishies than she is to killing tanks, and stealth fits Assassin playstyles better than Skirmisher playstyle.

Diana being a Diver over an Assassin or Skirmisher is due to her not having any escapes or defensive tricks.

TFBaamDec 13, 20161 votes

mundo isnt tank he cant peel. tanks can both engage or disengage, hence "tank ekko" building full tank wasnt an actual tank

TyroneWatermelonDec 13, 20162 votes

For all the juggernaut fanboys just take Ghost run instead of your precious Flash and dead man's plate

Critmaster GarenDec 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

For all the juggernaut fanboys just take Ghost run instead of your precious Flash and dead man's plate

does that even make sense? movement speed has a soft cap, so stacking ghost with dead mans might not do much.

plus, a juggernaut with dead mans isnt less telegraphed or less kitable. dead mans movement speed bonus decays while under the effect of cc.

yes, it can be a helpful item to follow up team engages, but it doesnt make up for the lack of your own engage.

flash is often just mandatory, unless its some special case like olaf. otherwise it would become much harder to make plays, and people tend to just dash over walls or flash out of reach when youre about to kill them.

DragonSheaDec 14, 20162 votes

Imaging a juggernaut is a freight train and an assassin is a car. both are gonna kill you by driving over your ass but which one can turn and which one can't huh?

Reminds me of a moment when I summoner 12 into a ward as Yorick with ghost and gave Morgana the shovel. Funny as fuck XD

A Basic IslandDec 13, 20161 votes

do you use 3 movement quints on your morde page by chance

Malicious MetalDec 13, 20162 votes

3 MS quints Ghost Flash SRS

And still it's often not enough to reliably stick to people ^^''

TheIronRevenantDec 13, 20162 votes

But he's so op, I mean, a super squishy yas comes up to you and gets nuked by your q, 2op /s

OglafDec 13, 20161 votes

It is still very much true for Illaoi because only noobs use her leap as a "dash" or engage. Not wasting it for engaging purposes is what separates a good Illaoi player from a bad one.

You need to be able to use it immediately after hitting R for her wombo-combo; if you use it as a gap closer and then use your R you will have nothing to follow-up with and essentially wasting your Ultimate since the enemy players can just walk out of it. You need the insta-slam with the tentacles offered by her W.

Which is why she is definitely one of the less mobile Champions in the game.

Only Play DariusDec 13, 20161 votes

I like to use it to harass in lane as its %HP damage at a very low mana cost and cooldown and guaranteed to hit unlike her Q or E

OglafDec 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kjjkcxhh,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-12-13T18:31:53.313+0000)

I like to use it to harass in lane as its %HP damage at a very low mana cost and cooldown and guaranteed to hit unlike her Q or E

Well laning is a bit different. She's very strong during laning due to being allowed to set up a nice little grape base of tentacles.

Once the game shifts towards roaming/team fights though, what I wrote definitely applies.

Project omenDec 13, 20161 votes

Not having any way of getting closer to the enemy besides just walking towards him is a design flaw. Juggernauts are very slow (or average at most) without using their ability to get close faster and even if they do, they are still very weak to kiting. Also, you did not include Mordekaiser, who contradicts the point of this post. Although I'm sure you know that already. Also, small detail: Mundo is not a juggernaut. another small detail: Vladimir and Swain are ap juggernauts. Sorta. But both of them are slow af.

TFBaamDec 13, 20161 votes

mundo is a jugg tanks have to be able to (dis)engage, where mundo doesnt really have either

KuroCaliberDec 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

mundo is a jugg tanks have to be able to (dis)engage, where mundo doesnt really have either

Primary role of mundo is to soak up damage, and slow people with % current healht cleavers. But literally to be a massive fat sack that people can't kill

TFBaamDec 13, 20161 votes

thats not a tank, thats a fighter. mundo also does a ton of dmg

JoseraphDec 13, 20161 votes

except ONE certain outlier

Kitty ClarissaDec 13, 20161 votes

For those of you that says DrMundo is not a juggernaut. he is just because he builds full tank does not mean he does a crap ton of damage. Normally mundo does the highest damage out of all his team building full tank. HE hurts alot with his Q and AD steroid and is hard to kite due to ult MS .
A juggernaut does not have the best CC or enough to keep a team perma stunned but they bring more damage while being tanky making so they cant be ignoreed unless grossly behind.

KeìronDec 13, 20161 votes

I think udyr is more diver-ish.

morris1Dec 14, 20161 votes

He's far from immobile, but comparing him to XinZhao MonkeyKing LeeSin Diana , his engage is too unreliable to consider him a diver. With most of his builds he functions more like a juggernaut.

ScissorsNstuffDec 13, 20161 votes

juggernaut != low speed juggernaut == low acceleration

l Helios lDec 14, 20161 votes

Recent iteration of ghost/flash Darius top kind of makes me sad because I feel he's gonna get scapegoated as the problem in top lane once Kennen and Jayce nerfs happen. Quinn will probably show back up in competitive as the optimal counter early.

AcidTheWarlockDec 14, 20161 votes

You forgot Skarner, unless they decided he's not a juggernaut.

Which would be lame.

5000000000000000Dec 14, 20161 votes

He's a Vanguard now, since his kit is more focused on CC than damage.

AcidTheWarlockDec 14, 20162 votes

Riperoni the scorperoni.....

HazyCloud7Dec 14, 20161 votes

I think it would only be appropriate for the mods to just give you a personal mordekaiser sticky thread at some point, only half kidding.

I'm aware this isn't directly about Morde, but the underlying point you want people to come away with here as the most well known morde player on these boards is that as a champion in the juggernaut class, Morde's 325 base ms is too slow. And it probably is too slow.