Redemption + Locket still too strong. No one cares.

chipndip1·Mar 23, 2017·80 votes·6,080 views

I shouldn't get a 17 win streak, stopped only because I got 2 master smurfs in the same game against me (not even duo'd together), building nearly the exact same core build path EVERY SINGLE GAME. Winning, losing, even, doesn't matter. Redemption -> Locket pretty much guaranteed team fight victories over other supports that opted for something dumb like Ardent Censor.

Like is there REALLY strategic diversity when this happens?

https://i.gyazo.com/4cc3f454dda79057f402f4f8ca58f121.png

Exact same combo for 17 wins in a row.

161 Comments

needHymnMar 23, 201782 votes

[deleted]

MelledoneusMar 23, 201710 votes

The poor fool... he has dabbled in forces he does not understand...

IncognonymousMar 23, 201732 votes

Sona disgusting freelo confirmed

StandgroundingMar 23, 201710 votes

gonna abuse her as hard as i have abused Quinn/Graves/Jayce recently

undesirable teamMar 23, 201734 votes

[{quoted}](name=SMURF HENEKTON,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgEtJYOA,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-03-23T14:12:37.539+0000)

gonna abuse her as hard as i have abused Quinn/Graves/Jayce recently

you metaslaves make me sick.

StandgroundingMar 23, 20179 votes

You downvoters make me sicker

Glory ln DeathMar 23, 201724 votes

Bacteria makes me sickest.

Velzard of KozMar 23, 201711 votes

Being sick makes me sick

MelledoneusMar 23, 20172 votes

This discussion is making me sick...

Retches in nearby convenient trash can

BotifierMar 23, 20176 votes

Being sick makes me stick

Velzard of KozMar 23, 20177 votes

Your stick makes me sick

Gosh DarnMar 23, 20178 votes

I'm gonna lick your stick

DessemMar 23, 201710 votes

Pretty sure declaring you're going to abuse a mute lady is going to get you in trouble somewhere. For shame.

StandgroundingMar 23, 20174 votes

_I am UberDanger and I think it's ok :D _

Supreme Senpai69Mar 23, 20171 votes

That 5 man proc of ardent is pretty intense tbh. Especially when most of my games have all ADCs

chipndip1Mar 23, 20173 votes

Never built it once in this streak. You don't need it.

InTheoryMar 23, 201717 votes

[deleted]

HyperiönMar 23, 201726 votes

Too strong.

ArmegettonMar 23, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Are they too strong or are other options too weak?

yes

DreadlocksMar 23, 20173 votes

both.

MuzétMar 23, 20177 votes

Ardent Censor is niche. Works well when you've got one or two aa reliant apart from adc. Mikael? Don't even want to talk about it, its stats are weak. Chalice? The healing is weak specially when it's capped for no reaosn since it's a one target heal.

My Waifu VanillaMar 23, 20175 votes

I actually opt for Ardent 100% of the time over Redemption on Lulu. Considering my ADC usually ends up being something like Kog, Lucian, or Kalista nowadays the bonus AS+Leech goes a LONG way since Censor gives all of them an additional 70 (Lucian passive) or 105 (Hurricane users) health an auto and also gives them an additional like 150+ damage an auto when combined with Lulu's passive (since Ardent does rock 60 AP it goes a LONG way in that department as well).

5000000000000000Mar 23, 20172 votes

Who buys support items for stats anyway

MuzétMar 23, 20172 votes

if you stat check the Locket + Redemption thing it gives you [Armor, MR] and [HP, HPR and MPR] without passive/active count. Mikael : MR, MPR Chalice : AP, MPR. The synergy between Locket/Redemption is great through the HP on a side and resistances on the other. While other support items synergizes through their passive (Heal and Shiel Power bonus). But that's it. Mikael hasn't been strong even after the reduced CD for one sole reason: the stats. Athene shouldn't have a cap (or it should be way more higher) since you need to land dmg spells and it only stores 20% of the premitigation. Usually support doesn't build AP the cap shouldn't be that low.

LooknookMar 23, 20173 votes

I think the cap is to prevent Midlane AP users from abusing the item. When it was originally reworked it was the other Moerello. You chose one or the other for whichever had better Mana regen/stats. However, I think the new version underperforms and may be one of those "if good must buy on x champs items".

MuzétMar 23, 20171 votes

They reduced the AP (and the MR?). It's only a 20% premitigation that is stored and works only on shield and heal. The two only midlaners i can think of that could pull it off is lux and morg. But morg got suh a high cd that it isn't that much worth it. Usually before the Athene rework it was more like"If I'm feeling okay against this AP Matchup or it's an AD matchup I'm going for morello, otherwise Athene" Before you actually had a choice as a core item. Now it's Morello/ But not the subject x)

SH AzykanMar 23, 20171 votes

Orianna is confirmed the potential for abuse case. gets off a wombo then shields and fully heals whoever took the damage getting the ball in there to start and probably ate shit doing so. Lux is the 2ndary

LooknookMar 23, 20172 votes

Mid or top karma and lulu could also potentially abuse it.

Meep ManMar 23, 201714 votes

Whenever someone uses Locket, all I hear is "LETS BREAK IT DOWN!"

I like Locket.

DJ LucioMar 23, 20172 votes

Did you say "LETS BREAK IT DOWN"?

CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP!

nathanxyzMar 23, 201711 votes

Psst... item 3504 unique passive is unnamed and therefore stacks with item 3107 ... just saying. Censer isn't a bad item if your team is attack speed dependant, and it's amazing to build with Redemption especially on a champion like Karma where your shield has the potential to be on ALL your allies.

h5LYF41LamMar 23, 20176 votes

item 3504 This is probably the best item riot has designed in years. item 3107 and item 3190 are a bad joke made by riot. If you play adc and you want to get he maximum damage out of your champion you have to follow a risky squishy build. if you play an assasin and you want to get he maximum damage out of your champion you have to follow a risky squishy build. if you play an apc and you want to get he maximum damage out of your champion you have to follow a risky squishy build. if you want to play a support and want to get the maximum heals/shields out of your champion follow this 200 magic resist 200 armor 3000 hp build. all this is just is just a sorry attempt by riot to make the role appeal to bad players. Free defensive stats=more forgiving gameplay=better for inexperienced players But champions like sona janna and soraka were never meant to have a forgiving gameplay,thats what brought as here.

My Waifu VanillaMar 23, 20173 votes

This is honestly my biggest complaint with support itemization as it stands. Sona by design should not be tankier than her respective ADC, but the AP Sightstone+Redemption gives her enough mana regen and natural bulk (usually hits 2k health by like level 12 or something) to endure most damage and then heal it back by spamming W. I do remember a time when supports ran out of mana for spamming, but I have YET to lane against a Sona who dropped below half mana when she has been healing all poke while still using Q+Staccato for spelltheifs gold on cooldown it seems (the 45 seconds for 3 stacks of spelltheifs).

h5LYF41LamMar 23, 20172 votes

when sona was designed they gave her the lowest base health in the game,they did that for a reason,enhancers are supposed to be played the same as adcs in team fights staying behind and trying to dodge incoming damage,cc and playing safe.All those free defensive stats made that a joke enhancers and healers in the frontline is just a joke.riot tried to make supports easier but they made the role require 0 skill to play.

HahahahyenaMar 23, 20172 votes

its to make the autofilled support roles not quit when they get asigned to it. it gives them at least some impact on the game now. before supports were just undeniably boring compared to the rest of the line up, at least now theres some joy in not being the carry

ModCaptainMårvelousMar 23, 20179 votes

So, few things:

Correlation =/= Causation

Just because you build redemption/locket doesn't mean they're the sole cause of you winning.

Far more factors outside of two items.

Maybe you're a good Sona player? Maybe you faced bad enemies? Maybe DCs? AFKs? Trolls? There are so many factors it's impossible to determine.

Those items work very well with your champion.

Sona is an AoE heal/shield support. Redemption is an AoE heal. Locket is an AoE shield. Seems like a perfect fit for her, especially with her low HP and resistances.

While redemption and locket might be strong, this is hardly conclusive evidence. I could argue that I build trinity on Vi and win a majority of my games. That doesn't necessarily mean Trinity force is OP or that Trinity is choking out other items.

chipndip1Mar 23, 20171 votes

I used to not build these items in this fashion and I was sinking fast out of Diamond and through Plat. When I finally got it into my head that these items are going to be stronger than any other item I could possibly build on my champ (a friend of mine showed me a high tier Sona player that built Redemption -> Locket in every support game with no deviation, save a tear detour), I started winning and fixing my mmr back to the way it was before I ever demoted, and I didn't lose a single game up until Diamond promos round 3, where I got 2 Masters smurfing in the same game on the same team...against me, and the next game because we had someone first time Galio while the enemy team had Ivern, meaning I couldn't bank on them not having Redemption + Locket since every Ivern builds them. Even in games that seemed bleak, just banking on others underestimating how stupidly strong these items are is enough to make a comeback so long as I can keep my team from freaking out too hard.

And these two items work very well on every support champion. That's the problem. Ardent Censor should be where Redemption is in a world that makes sense since Sona has pretty much 100% up on 5 champs with it, but alas, the item sucks in comparison.

ModCaptainMårvelousMar 24, 20172 votes

Now, while it works for Sona, this isn't conclusive evidence that it's broken and/or works on every support. What would be a better argument is showing that of the top 6 win-rate supports on Champion.gg (Specifically targeting diamond plus), the top six all build locket/redemption. Of those six, two of them (Sion/Blitzcrank) are not shield/buff supports.

There's also the fact that you're corroborating information from your experience and your experience alone. You need more evidence. Talk to other support mains in Diamond or higher. Ask for opinions, etc.

The key thing I want to make is that I'm not outright saying you're wrong. You're just not making a compelling argument for why they need changes. (But you could easily do so!)

AlienPrimateMar 23, 20176 votes

"something dumb like Ardent Censer"

My only loss in this didn't matter what was built. My whole team got crushed by their jungler all game.

http://i.imgur.com/l4JhSCI.png

Troll for TrumpMar 24, 20174 votes

, building nearly the exact same core build path EVERY SINGLE GAME. Winning, losing, even, doesn't matter.

Juggernauts with Cleaver+Tank items ADCs with the lethality build path(pre-nerf, but yeah). ADCs with Crit items in the past(IE +atk speed item) Runaan ADCs(runaan ->IE)

Assassins: Youmuus Duskblade

Generally, everyone has the same core items. Because they're core items.

chipndip1Mar 24, 20172 votes

Difference:

Some marksmen don't build crit. Others do.
Some jugs don't build Cleaver as a core item. (Mundo, Volibear, Olaf)
Some assassins don't build Duskblade and Youmuus (The ap ones)

but

Nearly every support is strong with Locket + Redemption. Not just some enchanters, but all enchanters and wardens and the vanguards. This item combo is role encompassing, not just core on some champs. Having a core is one thing, but this is a core for nearly every champ that plays this role.

Troll for TrumpMar 25, 20171 votes

Mundo, Volibear, Olaf

Ik Riot classifies them as juggernauts, but they don't feel like that. I THINK they reclassified Voli as a diver. Mundo and Olaf... don't do enough dmg to be a juggernaut, and aren't tanky enough to be a tank. They don't feel like anything, and need reworks tbh.

Some marksmen don't build crit. Others do.

Yeah, that's why I grouped them up:

ADCs in the past that built crit ADCs that build crit now(mostly Runaan ADCs) Arm Pen ADCs

Some assassins don't build Duskblade and Youmuus (The ap ones)

You get the idea.

AP assassins all get one-two of their core items every game, always.

The jg items also heavily reduce item diversity.

but all enchanters and wardens and the vanguards.

Not all of them, especially for the vanguard group. Skarner, for instance.

With things like Cleavers or youmuus, or crit, it's not just some champs. Those items are defined by those items now, where if you don't build them it severely hinders their capabilities.

They're existance in the meta depends on those items

chipndip1Mar 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ik Riot classifies them as juggernauts, but they don't feel like that. I THINK they reclassified Voli as a diver. Mundo and Olaf... don't do enough dmg to be a juggernaut, and aren't tanky enough to be a tank. They don't feel like anything, and need reworks tbh.

No, the three are jugs. They specialize in getting tanky and running at your team, forcing your team to have to focus fire them with their biggest spells while they use resistances and sustain to keep themselves up through the onslaught, while using damage to force this interaction. Just because you don't like their take on this general concept doesn't mean they aren't jugs. They DEFINITELY aren't divers seeing how they don't necessarily dive like actual divers.

Yeah, that's why I grouped them up:

In the game, there's only "marksmen". The variants just prove my point: There's variation when it comes to optimal marksman builds.

AP assassins all get one-two of their core items every game, always.

But that depends on the assassin. Fizz likes Lich. Kat and Akali love Gunblade. LB basically builds standard burst. Point proven.

The jg items also heavily reduce item diversity.

And depending on the jungler, you get a different jungle enchant.

Not all of them, especially for the vanguard group. Skarner, for instance.

SUPPORT vanguards. What Skarner is building Locket?

Like, just do one simple mental exercise: Imagine if EVERY JUNGLER IN THE GAME was either optimal or "couldn't go wrong" with Cinderhulk. Not just the tank ones, but EVERY SINGLE ONE. We'd all be crying foul for a hot fix. Same concept.

Troll for TrumpMar 26, 20171 votes

No, the three are jugs. They specialize in getting tanky and running at your team, forcing your team to have to focus fire them with their biggest spells while they use resistances and sustain to keep themselves up through the onslaught, while using damage to force this interaction. Just because you don't like their take on this general concept doesn't mean they aren't jugs. They DEFINITELY aren't divers seeing how they don't necessarily dive like actual divers.

That's just it, they don't force you to do anything, because they don't get dmg. And their dmg proceeds to get worse over time, because they don't get sufficient arm pen/AD in the form of cleaver.

They just walk around taking shots, but not doing any real dmg. They're more like dmg sponges, and tanks without hard cc.

It's nothing personal, that's the way it's always been. Olaf slowly transitioned away from AD to full tank. Remember when Mundo used to get titanic Hydra? Right now, his highest winrate build, and most played ones are full tank. Volibear,too, used to get at least one on-hit item. Most common and most popular build? Full tank. Olaf's most commonly played as a full tank, however, his highest winrate build does have one damage item. Guess what it is.

Black Cleaver. Juggernauts are basically only ever actual juggernauts if they have cleaver, at this point.

And yes. Voli, and Olaf are more divers than tanks. Look at Voli's kit. He charges in, and flips someone. He's not flipping the tank, or the bruiser, or the juggernaut. No, he's going to go and flip the squishy.

Is Olaf going to duel a tank for an entire fight? No, he'll focus on the squishy. He'll dive squishies with his ult so they can't kite him, and people can't cc him away from the squishy. He isn't using his ult to ignore CC from tanks to KILL the frontline, but rather the backline.

Juggernauts are fine with fighting the frontline, but sometimes try to get into the backline when the opportunity presents itself. They have little say or control over these opportunities, because they are easily peeled and have little mobility. Olaf has cc immunity, and needs to either go for the backline, or just peel. He can't fight the frontline. Same with Voli.

Mundo, is just more tank than Juggernaut. He always has been like that. It's not just a me thing, it's the way things are.

In the game, there's only "marksmen". The variants just prove my point: There's variation when it comes to optimal marksman builds.

In the game, there's only "support." There's "support mage" "support enchanter" "support bruiser (nonexistant? Tahm Kench? Idk)" "support tank". The variations you list just prove my point.

But that depends on the assassin. Fizz likes Lich. Kat and Akali love Gunblade. LB basically builds standard burst. Point proven.

But they're always locked. Into. One or two items. You shouldn't need to always get one or two items every game. Every mid mage right now is getting Morello's. You shouldn't be discouraged from striving from that. Same w/ Juggernauts and Cleaver.

And depending on the jungler, you get a different jungle enchant.

You shouldn't need an enchant to jgl. You shouldn't need smite to get jgl items, and the jgl shouldn't be based around jgl items.

SUPPORT vanguards. What Skarner is building Locket?

Didn't really specify before.

Like, just do one simple mental exercise: Imagine if EVERY JUNGLER IN THE GAME was either optimal or "couldn't go wrong" with Cinderhulk. Not just the tank ones, but EVERY SINGLE ONE. We'd all be crying foul for a hot fix. Same concept.

It's not every jungler. It's not every support.

chipndip1Mar 26, 20171 votes

At this point, you're just CerealBoxofDoom'ing me, so 'm going to go through this once. Take it how you will from that point forward.

On the topic of jugs: Look, you can't just rule out half the jug class because they don't build Black Cleaver, then say "All jugs build Black Cleaver". That's like me saying every ap champ that doesn't build Morello first isn't a mage, then saying "All mages build Morello". You don't get to magically reclassify what is and isn't a jug, especially since you don't have a strong grasp of what makes a jug a jug or what makes a diver a diver.

On the topic of marksmen: Marksman is a CLASS. Support is a ROLE FILLED BY PRIMARILY ENCHANTERS AND WARDENS (Wtf is a support "bruiser"? Kench is a warden). In the support ROLE, in a perfect world, Redemption + Locket shouldn't be a highly effective buy on basically everyone in the role regardless of their CLASS. Marksman, a class of champs, showcases how it SHOULD be given that some marksmen build crit, some build armor pen/shred, and some can switch between the two. Even between those that build crit, some find Essence Reaver core in comparison to IE, and some build Runaan's as opposed to Rapid Fire Cannon or Phantom Dancer. That's build variety based on champion, something support severely lacks, especially given that support itemization is nearly the same not just within classes, but between classes.

On the topic of assassins: Duh, assassins are going to build 1-2 core items every game. EVERY champ has core items they rarely stray from unless it's an emergency. The point is that different assassins have different core items. In the support role, this is non-existent. Anyone can just pick up these two items and you're hardly going to lose anything for it because...well...wtf else are you going to build that's this efficient and this cheap to land on? In an even match, nothing really comes close. It's stackable aoe sustain that gives you defensive stats to last longer in fights, on cds that allow them to be up for the next fight after everyone farms, respawns/heals, and finds each other to fight again.

On the topic of the jg: Well, junglers use enchants, plain and simple. And depending on who you are, there's 4 different enchants to use. If the jg was more like the support role, everyone would just use the same enchant, and one enchant would just be massively overpowered in comparison to the other ones. Still, that isn't the case because people CARED when Cinderhulk was so strong we had full tank jg Lee, Vi, and Hec running around back in season five. Why don't people care when something's toxic to the support environment, though? Yeah, they care when it's ap mages, because they actively come out and kill you, making them your problem too, but outside of that, nope.

Take it for what you will.

Troll for TrumpMar 26, 20171 votes

On the topic of jugs: Look, you can't just rule out half the jug class because they don't build Black Cleaver, then say "All jugs build Black Cleaver". That's like me saying every ap champ that doesn't build Morello first isn't a mage, then saying "All mages build Morello". You don't get to magically reclassify what is and isn't a jug, especially since you don't have a strong grasp of what makes a jug a jug or what makes a diver a diver.

I'm not. You didn't read what I wrote. I gave exact explanations for why they weren't actual juggernauts. Them having cleaver or not getting it is a result of them not being juggernauts. If you aren't a good juggernaut, you wouldn't get juggernaut items. If you're Darius, you can still do things with crit, but you wouldn't get it, because you aren't designed for it. You seem to not know the difference between divers and juggernauts.

From the juggernaut update, Meddler describes it as: "Olaf, Shyvana are the next two we're planning on looking at. Yorick's arguably a juggernaut, he'll get a full relaunch though. Volibear could be described as a juggernaut, though he's also got some diver and tank bits to him. Mundo also shares some juggernaut characteristics, but doesn't really match overall (which is fine, we're looking to use these descriptions as ways to map similarities and differences between champions, not because every champion has to be forced into a specific category)."

He also defines Juggernauts as having "Juggernauts - Immobile, tough, build one to two offensive items on average (e.g. Nasus or Garen)" But Mundo and Voli don't even get ONE offensive item anymore. Olaf usually doesn't.

They aren't really true juggernauts. At one point, you could've argued for it, but not anymore.

On the topic of marksmen: Marksman is a CLASS. Support is a ROLE FILLED BY PRIMARILY ENCHANTERS AND WARDENS (Wtf is a support "bruiser"? Kench is a warden). In the support ROLE, in a perfect world, Redemption + Locket shouldn't be a highly effective buy on basically everyone in the role regardless of their CLASS. Marksman, a class of champs, showcases how it SHOULD be given that some marksmen build crit, some build armor pen/shred, and some can switch between the two. Even between those that build crit, some find Essence Reaver core in comparison to IE, and some build Runaan's as opposed to Rapid Fire Cannon or Phantom Dancer. That's build variety based on champion, something support severely lacks, especially given that support itemization is nearly the same not just within classes, but between classes.

A support bruiser is a bruiser that supports. Probably closest one would be blitz, because he's definitely not a warden or a tank. Supports have 3 groups: Warden, Enchanter, and mage. Riot has support wardens/enchanters as supports based on buffing allies. And they mixed the items together. Mages, however, do not get redemption/locket. ADCs are Crit/Lethality. Supports are AP/Warden+Enchanter items

Why don't people care when something's toxic to the support environment, though? Yeah, they care when it's ap mages, because they actively come out and kill you, making them your problem too, but outside of that, nope.

They did. Weren't you there when there were tons of threads asking for redemption+locket combo nerfs? That's why they got nerfed in the first place. People do care about those. "WTF 1000+ shielding preventing me from killing ADC pls nerf" types of threads.

lslandsMar 23, 20173 votes

Ive said it before but the amount of shielding and healing in this game is too damn high. Redemption should of never been an item in the first place

MeritasMar 23, 20175 votes

What about the argument that the damage in the game is too high? I think that the shielding and healing is appropriate right now.

La Belle SauvageMar 24, 20171 votes

Chipndip1, first congrats. Secondly I don't deny your claim perhaps those items are overpowered, however in your last 121 games you win 54% of them. If the combo is so devastating I would think your winning % would be higher.

chipndip1Mar 24, 20173 votes

I only started straight building this combo near the beginning of this streak. At first, I was spiraling out of Plat building Ardent Censor first.

Even though I've been saying these items are pretty much role defining, I've been playing in ways that contradicted my line of thought. After a bit of a push from a pal, I changed my core build to this and flew back into low Diamond.