Thornmail needs a small buff, let's consider some idea's.

DiveAlive··6 votes·868 views

First idea is a simple 5% increase to the physical damage reflect from basic attacks and on-hits.

Another is to make it reflect 15% of all damage from basic attacks and on-hits including magic and true damage.

3rd, I personally would like 10% cdr on it but many would disagree, so perhaps give it an additional passive that would work something like this:

Receiving damage from basic attacks grants 3(if not 4) bonus movement speed, stacking up to 10 times, for a maximum of 30(or 40) bonus movement speed.

Please share your opinions and own ideas, keep in mind I'm suggesting one of these be used, not all.

14 Comments

Dr Cat2 votes

I agree. Thornmail's passive can be almost completely ignored with 1 maybe 2 lifesteal items, which are already part of most adc builds.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kg7AbBXh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-22T19:50:12.204+0000)

I agree. Thornmail's passive can be almost completely ignored with 1 maybe 2 lifesteal items, which are already part of most adc builds.

An ADC needs to buy one or two 3,400+ gold items to counter a 2,350 gold item?

Aw, poor little tanks. =(

Valexfor1 votes

Not true, an adc can buy only one lifesteal item and still have enough to work around thornmail, while a tank has to buy thonrmail + another item to counter an adc with one lifesteal item (meaning that a tank should spend around 4k+ gold to coutner a 3,4k item, and still the adc can buy another 1300 item and fuck you no matter what armor you buy). Adc itemization is better than tank itemization right now since all tank items have been nerfed during the last patches, and you also have to count tht a tank can't build only one type of defense, while an adc can just build full damage, which is fairly unfair since you can't buy 3 armor items and neglet everything else right now.

newbin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kg7AbBXh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-22T19:50:12.204+0000)

I agree. Thornmail's passive can be almost completely ignored with 1 maybe 2 lifesteal items, which are already part of most adc builds.

Thornmail works better on bruisers with ap ratios because thornmail damage return is magic. That is very important you need to get magic penetration at some point to really make it effective or stack even more armor.

CoolKnightST2 votes

Personally I would like to see it given crit reduction like:

#NEW ITEM item 1029 + item 1029

  • Build into item 3143 (item 1011 ) item 3075 (item 1031)

#item 3082 Warden

  • Builds into item 3110 (item 1031, 2600 gold & only 80 armor ), NEW ITEM 2 (item 3067 )
DrCyanide2 votes

What if it inflicts grievous wounds on those that attack you?

Dunkrius2g1 votes

Then adc mains will complain too much and scream tank meta

Swiftstrike42 votes

Thornmail is only effective in the late game if the champion has multiple armor items AND the ADC doesn't build much lifesteal.

It really had only impact for a few champions that build full tank and rarely does it reflect enough damage back to really impact an ADC's decision to auto-attack when low.

It had needed a buff for awhile with other armor items just being better than thornmail overall (item 3742 item 3025 item 3143 item 3068 item 3110 ). The problem is if they raise the damage too much it makes most ADCs useless. It is also a half tank item. Full tank items offer health, resistance, and a passive, thornmail offers a weak passive and just armor.

I don't think lowering the cost really helps either. I think there should be another passive to the item, a ruby crystal added to the build, and some additional armor.

FH also needs some adjustment. It is an expensive item that offers a great passive, but supports mostly build this item. It is too expensive for most supports to build early and too expensive to rush. I think the cost should be lowered to be 100 gold cheaper than IBG.

67chrome1 votes

Thornmail is only effective in the late game if the champion has multiple armor items AND the ADC doesn't build much lifesteal.

It's the exact opposite.

Early game, 100 armor is a huge deal as it pretty much doubles your effective health and going AFK vs. most auto-attackers results in devastating levels of reflected damage. Early game: 100 armor is also a pretty massive boost for thornmail's scaling passive. No other item offers 100 armor, and thus that scaling doesn't have nearly the same impact later on.

3 major items in, most auto-attackers have the right mixture of armor penetration, life-steal, and magic resistance to limit thronmail to cutting their life-steal to 0 and doing nothing else. Late game, you have to build vs. an entire team rather than 1 champion as well: generally making HP a much more useful stat for survival than either armor or MR.

Thornmail is an amazing item vs. top-lane auto-attackers like Rengar, Tryndamere, Aatrox, etc. that want to 1v1 for the majority of a game and splitpush. It was also a nightmare to deal with in Dominion and so oppressive in Twisted Treelines it was flat out removed from the map.

But in Rift? It's pretty garbage due to specifically being a bad late-game item vs. an entire team. Thornmail is not a good late-game item. It's no even a mediocre late-game item. It's an early game item that only maintains relevance late-game if you can reliably force 1v1 fights.

The problem is if they raise the damage too much it makes most ADCs useless.

Not really. ADC's tower-killing potential is so much better than any other archetypes, they're extremely useful just for that. Most have enough range to just not focus someone wearing thornmail as well.

Issue Thornmail has is more about counterplay and the awful playstyle it encourages. Which is basically "buy thornmail, beat every auto-attacker with no effort while doing nothing". Any good game should reward actually doing things to keep the game interesting and exciting, when standing still doing nothing is the path to victory it cheapens the experience for everyone.

As-is thornmail just can't be anything but niche with it's utter lack of interaction and generally awful promised playstyle. If Riot were to really buff thornmail they'd need to give it more counterplay.

Swiftstrike41 votes

{quoted}

It's the exact opposite.

Early game, 100 armor is a huge deal as it pretty much doubles your effective health and going AFK vs. most auto-attackers results in devastating levels of reflected damage. Early game: 100 armor is also a pretty massive boost for thornmail's scaling passive. No other item offers 100 armor, and thus that scaling doesn't have nearly the same impact later on.

3 major items in, most auto-attackers have the right mixture of armor penetration, life-steal, and magic resistance to limit thronmail to cutting their life-steal to 0 and doing nothing else. Late game, you have to build vs. an entire team rather than 1 champion as well: generally making HP a much more useful stat for survival than either armor or MR.

Thornmail is an amazing item vs. top-lane auto-attackers like Rengar, Tryndamere, Aatrox, etc. that want to 1v1 for the majority of a game and splitpush. It was also a nightmare to deal with in Dominion and so oppressive in Twisted Treelines it was flat out removed from the map.

But in Rift? It's pretty garbage due to specifically being a bad late-game item vs. an entire team. Thornmail is not a good late-game item. It's no even a mediocre late-game item. It's an early game item that only maintains relevance late-game if you can reliably force 1v1 fights.

Not really. ADC's tower-killing potential is so much better than any other archetypes, they're extremely useful just for that. Most have enough range to just not focus someone wearing thornmail as well.

Issue Thornmail has is more about counterplay and the awful playstyle it encourages. Which is basically "buy thornmail, beat every auto-attacker with no effort while doing nothing". Any good game should reward actually doing things to keep the game interesting and exciting, when standing still doing nothing is the path to victory it cheapens the experience for everyone.

As-is thornmail just can't be anything but niche with it's utter lack of interaction and generally awful promised playstyle. If Riot were to really buff thornmail they'd need to give it more counterplay.

Completely disagree most of your points. Health is the most effective item early combat stat in the game, not armor. Resistances are more effective in the late game when you already have health.

After about 60 armor the returns on the resistance diminishes without health.

Thornmail offers no health and a weak passive that scales off a user's bonus armor. It doesn't offer CDR, mana, or health. This makes it a more effective late game item (when you have more bonus armor) than an early game item.

It is not a rush item in the top lane, except maybe verse a Vayne. FH would still be better rush item since it offers high armor as well as mana, cdr, and a great passive. No one rushes thornmail top because they recognize it offers so much less than the other armor items.

Thornmail is an item without much of a place except in the late game if they are mostly AD.

67chrome1 votes

Completely disagree most of your points. Health is the most effective item early combat stat in the game, not armor. Resistances are more effective in the late game when you already have health.

By the time one can afford Thornmail, 100 armor is going to provide the same %increase in effective HP as an item like Warmog's.

The reason HP is better early on is due more to most champions dealing some level of mixed damage.

After about 60 armor the returns on the resistance diminishes without health.

After 60 HP the returns on HP diminishes without resistances.

Both stats scale in a largely identical way.

1000 HP will allow a champion to survive 1 1k rotation. 2000 HP will allow a champion to survive 2 1k rotations. 3000 HP will allow a champion to survive 3 1k rotations.

100 armor will cause a champion to take 1/2 damage 200 armor will cause a champion to take 1/3 damage 300 armor will cause a champion to take 1/4 damage.

The more you get of either, the lower the increase in your total power. In general this makes getting both at once better than prioritizing just health or just armor, though with very affordable and very high values in either health or armor nothing is really given up pursuing 1 for 1 major item.


Also, it's worth noting that HP doesn't improve any flat health gains or healing, where 50% damage reduction effectively makes a 10 HP heal a 20 HP heal. Healing potions, HP/5, HP shields, Max HP increases, life steal, spell vamp: anything that restores HP is always improved by armor vs. a physical-damage opponent.

The inverse effect is true vs. life steal: 50% damage reduction turns an opponents attack from one that does 100 damage and restores 10 HP per hit to one that does 50 damage and restores 5 HP per hit, making armor extremely good at countering life-steal.

Thornmail offers no health and a weak passive that scales off a user's bonus armor. It doesn't offer CDR, mana, or health. This makes it a more effective late game item (when you have more bonus armor) than an early game item.

The passive is oppressively strong in-lane. It's mostly feels weak because it does not scale well into late-game.

Also: the passive scales because it's the kind of thing that should scale, not because it's something meant to be amazing late-game.

Auto-attacks scale harder and faster than anything else in LoL. Thornmail's passive does not scale very fast, especially seeing as the initial 100 armor offered by Thornmail is the biggest potential scaler the item can get, where most decent armor items only offer around 50 armor. So when auto-attacks are going from 100 to 200 to 400 to 800 to 1600 DPS, Thornmail's passive goes from 100 to 150 to 200 to 200 to 200 (those MR items). Thornmail's damage reflected vs. damage taken also gets worse when armor penetration comes into the picture, seeing as reflecting damage before it's mitigated by armor is great when armor is mitigating a lot of damage and not great when an opponent is shredding through most of it.

Obviously much better early-game.

It is not a rush item in the top lane, except maybe verse a Vayne.

Tryndamere and Gangplank are much better champions to build it against, though the likes of Quinn, Draven, Rengar, and Aatrox aren't bad. Most top-lanners that Thornmail is good against are fairly uncommon, though watching GP crit himself in the face due to thornmail is still pretty satisfying.

FH would still be better rush item since it offers high armor as well as mana, cdr, and a great passive.

That really depends on the matchup and what your opponent is trying to accomplish top-lane.

If they're going to back-door 24/7 while trying to beat your face in through drawn-out fights, getting an item that offers power in short bursts and provides a strong aura within teamfight situations isn't the best way to go. Ditto for trying to split-push with sustained DPS yourself. Thornmail is much better in those situations.

Thornmail's main falling is that it's much better in 1v1 situations than 5v5 situations, which makes items like FH the better item to get in the long run for a range of tanky units that plan on winning a game off the back of a 5v5.

Thornmail is an item without much of a place except in the late game if they are mostly AD

Late-game AD's usually have enough power to crush tanky targets regardless of how much they bulked up, and it's a bad idea to get focused by them at all. Thornmail isn't really good in that situation, especially seeing AD heavy champions will hardly be tickled by the passive at that point. It will set their life-steal to 0%, which does have tactical applications, but that's about it as far as the passive goes. Anyone that seems useful with thornmail late game would have been useful with any other armor item.

Early-game: reflecting 15% of damage taken (prior to it being mitigated by things like your armor) and dealing damage equal to 25% of your bonus armor means ~34% of the damage you actually take is reflected back + 25 damage. 100 armor also pretty much doubles your HP, taking an 800 HP 30 armor (1040 EHP) champion to a 800 HP 130 armor (1840 EHP).

Even with 170 AD, you'd be reflecting half the AA damage taken back to an opponent while also having an 80% boost in overall HP, leading to a situation where an auto-attacker would need 11 auto-attacks to kill someone in thornmail: and kill themselves with 13 auto-attacks. If the champion wearing thronmail does anything but AFK, that's an extremely easy lane to win and a very dominant early-game.


Doing enough damage to take out ~84% of your opponent's HP with Thornmail alone early? Strong. Very Strong.

Doing enough damage to negate your opponent's life-steal with Thornmail late and maybe enough to take out ~5% of their HP? Weak


Thornmail is not in any way a late-game item. It's an early-game item. It's an item to get early-game to make a carry miserable early-game while you prevent them from farming CS, push them around, and generally prevent them from reaching end-game status.

Reaper Review1 votes

Thornmail

Recipe: Warden's Mail (1000) + Chain Vest (800) + 600 = 2400

+100 Armor

Unique Passive - Cold Steel: Upon being hit by a basic attack, the attacker's Attack Speed is reduced by 15% and their Life Steal is halved for 1 second.

Unique Passive: Upon being hit by a basic attack, the attacker receives Magic Damage equal to 20% of the incoming damage pre-mitigation, plus 15% of your own bonus Armor.

Brainstorming here. Probably too strong, but I'm not on the balance team so it's whatever.

Oleandervine1 votes

The reflection passive is a very very delicate passive that can't be buffed too much or else it will become a screw-you staple of ADCs against other ADCs, because free damage is a very powerful thing, especially when you get armor in the process.

Swiftstrike41 votes

If thornmail is as effective as an early game top lane item as you claim, then everyone would be building it early against auto-attack champs. But for the most part they don't, this is because it offers nothing but armor, and a weak early passive. It is certainly cheap enough to be a rush item, but not cheap or effective enough to be rushed over other armor items, which offer a lot more.

While you make a case for it being a rush item, the reality is that other armor items are still better than thornmail and this is the central reason it is built late. Thornmail need's a buff so that it is less than an afterthought on most champs

Against GP Randuin's is still the better buy in most circumstances since it offers reduction for crit, an active slow, armor, and health.

All AD comps drop off hard against a team that has one or two full tanks. They only do one type of damage which is incredibly easy to mitigate. If the team does not do true damage or win in the early they have quite a hard fight ahead of them. All AD teams do not do enough damage to mitigate the armor of tanks, which is why people tend to have diversity in their damage. It is also the main reason that a lot of people complain that tanks are too hard to kill at the moment, only two completed items deal with tanks well (item 3033 anditem 3036) and they don't stack. ADC's have a lot of options but and all AD comp, unless they are fed and end early will not scale effectively late.

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