Some Changes

• increase rewards for kills

• increase objectives toughness

• increase rewards for objectives

• increase cost of AD damage items (slightly)

• revert Quinn rework / rework Quinn again

• lower the ridiculous jungle comeback

• lower shut down kill gold

• lower death timers (mid game)

• lower ambient gold gain

Trying to step away from the game being decided by 10 minutes.

Towers are tougher so you can rely on them more. Objectives are tougher in general so that one guy can't just solo all of them. Ambient gold is decreased so unless you're farming you're not getting much gold, I.E your laner is kicking your butt feels more impacting. Good team play and stuff to get objectives is rewarded well, objectives are harder to take so once you get them you get more stuff.

Increased rewards for kills so that people don't fall asleep with objectives being harder to take. Although you might not get a tower cause you killed your laner twice you'll start building an advantage faster. Increased cost of items to compensate so that if you do die one time you're not gonna get completely stomped. I ignored AP damage because ADs are really dominating the most and mage v. mage match ups can be really passive.

WARNING QUINN SHENANIGANS. SKIP TO NEXT LINE THING TO AVOID IT!!

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Kog'Maw revert rationale.

>Our goal for the Marskman update was to create strategic identities**(1) for them outside of ‘who does the most damage’. What does each marksman do that their classmates don’t? Kog’Maw already had an answer to that question: be the glass cannon(2), demanding an entire team’s resources to support. So rather than create a distinct identity, we took a different approach: sharpen the one he already had(3). If ‘glass cannon’ was cool, could we push things further and make a ‘glass turret’? > 10 months and 5 attacks per second later, how did that shake out? Well, Kog’s gameplay has actually moved away from the niche he previously filled(4). Transforming into an immobile turret is certainly unique, but it creates a ‘feast or famine’ situation. Kog can’t move between attacks in the late game, so either he mows down everyone in range, or enemies walk to safety since Kog can't keep pace. Compared to the consistent payoffs of old-school ‘Jugger-Maw’ comps, playing with today’s Kog’Maw feels too hit-or-miss(5). > >As an aside, new Kog's created some warping effects on the items system(6). Specifically, on-hit items (Rageblade, Wit’s End, even Skirmisher’s Sabre) are balanced with the attack speed cap in mind, and Kog'Maw's pushing the strength of these effects past their designs. This puts heavy restrictions on the item system, all to support a single champ. > >All said, we’re left with two choices - continue to make concessions toward Kog’Maw’s ‘glass turret’ ideal, or hit the reset switch to a stabler (though still imperfect) Kog(7). The updated kit's moved too far from what made Kog’Maw special(8)**, so we opted for the latter. This transition may be choppy, as many of League’s underlying systems have changed since Kog'Maw's update, but we’ll be monitoring how he readjusts and make any changes necessary to support him(8).

1. Quinn already had a strategic identity. She was THE marksmen you took when you wanted to kill other marksmen and is tied with Vayne for best dueling). Quinn or her own with her blind, CC and gap closer all tie to "Hey I'm coming to kill that person with the gun and I'm gonna be at an advantage while doing so because of my moves". Valor was just an extension of this and gave Quinn the ability to get to the backline because she wasn't that good at killing frontliners (abilities aren't based around dealing damage/only damage steroid is attack speed/shorter range). She was already different from other marksmen who were based on "who does the most damage" in her blind, vault and tag team.

2. What does each marksman do that their classmates don't? Quinn already had an answer to that question: be the marksmen killer.

3. Riot's thing with Quinn was that "hey she has some pretty good mobility with Valor so let's amp that up. However they screwed up because Valor is a significant part of Quinn's kit that defines the duo but they removed Valor completely and only focused on mobility. Moving fast was one thing for Quinn but just moving fast wasn't why you picked Quinn. Just moving fast isn't why you pick ANY champion (unless you just like running around). JUST MOVINGFAST IS FUCKING BORING. HER NEW ULTIMATE SUCKS.

4. Kog'Maw still had the same niche, he kited less sure but still was immobile and still did a ton of damage. I think Riot didn't revert Kog'Maw because of his niche changing but because of how he was busted when successful. His changes were mostly due to feast or famine. Quinn too was also feast or famine. I have said many times that a Quinn that isn't ahead is as good as being behind. Rito's reasoning for reverting Kog'Maw was that it was busted and unhealthy. Quinn after the rework was also busted and unhealthy. I've said this as well many times but "fly in at mach 7 with point click burst and be back in lane before wave reaches tower". UNHEALTHY.

5. Playing today's Quinn doesn't even feel like I'm playing Quinn. It feels like I'm playing half a champion. Her new ultimate isn't fun, isn't strategic, isn't healthy and doesn't feel rewarding to use. In layman's terms it's just a teleport on a short CD that takes extra time to channel.

6. We've all read about "ADCs ABUSING lethality and ruining it for everyone" and this was the same for Quinn. Quinn would just build full lethality and it removed so much skill from her play patterns. Fly-by, E Q auto ONE SHOT. Cancerous to play against, doesn't feel rewarding, doesn't feel skillful. However Riot went with changing lethality items instead of the ADCs that made great use of lethality. I imagine if Quinn was the only one that was abusing it they would have reverted her... Lethality in comparison to on-hits have way less usage in game. Very few champions use on-hit builds regularly while lethality builds are used a lot on many different champions.

7. Old Quinn was imperfect as well and actually a bit less stable than the current Quinn but was way more healthy.

8. Riot has changed Quinn by nerfing lethality and removing away damage from abilities for more A/S on heightened senses so she'd be force to auto attack more. Quinn's updated kit has moved too far from what made her special. They've decided to keep on making concessions towards current Quinn and it's completely stupid.

More Quinn:

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/PE1LJTOM-quinn-pbe-feedback-thread

Firstly they say that:

>Tag Team (R) has been heavily repurposed into a strategic map mobility tool

Note the word strategic. How can this low CD ultimate be anywhere at any time ability strategic. Old R was IONS more strategic elements than the old R. FIrst you had to account for the hefty cooldown, 140/110/80s. At that time most ADCs had 0% CDR, maybe at most they got 10%, this changed when Essence Reaver got changed to give CDR with crit. Regardless you had an insane CD on this ability that changed your playstyle completely. You had a time limit on it was well being 20s. Pretty long time for a "steroid" (not entirely a steroid, changes the gameplay) but within that time you could use the mobility you got to roam and all that and had to time the distance you wanted to travel and if you wanted to fight as Valor.

That was only just the tip of the time iceberg. Valor played a lot different from Quinn. Had more damage theoretically because you have more AS but you lost out on Harrier passive. You were kinda like a Master Yi because of the huge A/S steroid (80%). Just looking at the CD of the old ability, we have passed the strategic thought when compared to the new ability. You also had to decide if you wanted to cancel the ultimate early in favor of range. I vividly remember a time where I was giving the beat down as Valor but was started to get kited out really hard Rather than try and stay as Valor I swapped out, confused the enemy (cause they couldn't kite me) and got the kill. Also Skystrike is pretty lame now, it's just an add on and doesn't have the same impact as before, hell it has a 40% ad ratio now, it does no damage.

>As with all changes, I'm nervous about them but excited for them. One of the most difficult things about these reveals is gauging what is an emotional response as opposed to constructed feedback. It's not fun to take away things from characters that players may have really enjoyed, but it means we really have to capitalize on the things we're adding/changing for it to be worth it.

Honestly there was nothing to capitalize on with these changes. I'd say if old Quinn was 100% difficult/unique/fun/distinct new Quinn would be 40%. They just removed so much depth from the duo and made the champion insanely unhealthy for the longest time... unavoidable range burst that can come at you anywhere at anytime is arguably worse than playing against Rengar or Kha'Zix or any assassin. I am a bit ticked off at how RitoRepetoir also tried to "gauge what is an emotion response as opposed to constructed feedback". The Ritoer did not comment or reply to any of the hugely upvoted comments that were constructive except one. The reply was this by the way... no actual thoughts on Quinn herself...

>There will always be people that don't like changes, so I will likely never get a good read on the portion of people that don't like a change. If it's weak or something's off about it, however, we would address that, yes.

This is also pretty silly. Acknowledging that people will not like the changes but apparently being unable to get a good read on how many people do not like the changes? There was not many Quinn players back than and there still is not much right now, check champion GG and she is only above other champions in play rate when other champions are played in uncommon places, for example rumble jungle is just below Quinn. With that said, anyone could would see that most of the Quinn player base was not too keen on the Quinn changes. From that Rito feedback thread and the huge amount of upvotes for people not too sure about losing Valor anyone would be able to tell that the changes were not liked.

The Rito Quinn feedback also had 883 comments, at least by this date. I can guess that the Rito feedback thread had around 100-200 comments at the very least when the Rito feedback thread was made. The fact that RitoRepetoir only commented 28 times on the thread is kinda depressing. The rest of RitoRepetoirs comments had little content to them other than answering question about the rework like "Will new Quinn move really fast?"

Let's look at some goals of class updates:

1. Every game of League should feel meaningfully different based on the champions in it
2. Each champion in League should feel distinct from one another
3. Give champions a specific meta-agnostic identity
4. Make champions healthy

Quinn already filled out most without the rework. Quinn had 1-3 down and you could argue about 4. New Quinn likewise also filled out 1-3 albeit less so now, her ultimate only means she can be anywhere at anytime. The change to her ultimate still makes her distinct but not as much as her old ultimate. A Quinn that is forced to group is pretty much the same as any other marksmen, generic, right clicking, nothing unique or interesting. Personally I find Quinn cool and interesting but when Quinn is only Quinn not that much is going on especially if you don't need to use her vault. I have already made points on why she is less unhealthy now, no CD ultimate, anywhere on the map, range unavoidable burst, etc.

>Next up, we're turning Quinn's ult into a toggle, giving Demacia's Wings the ability to MOVE. Most champions rely on Teleport to safely stray from their team, but League's speediest champion can move about freely and split push - or counter a split push - anywhere on the map without needing summoner spells.

Another goal of the rework was to give Quinn the ability to deal with split pushers when she already had that ability. Tag-team didn't last for 3-5 seconds it lasted for 20. Meaning Valor with his super high A/S and M/S could stop split pushes on his own and Quinn could react to those split pushes or start them on her own. The new change only made it so Quinn could ult back to her team afterward if she wanted but why would you do that when you could just stay in that lane and push it. The new ability doesn't really fulfill this new goal any better than the old one. The old Tag--Team gave more kill pressure with it's execute, the new one gives equal too or less.

All in all I agree with OP. I would do away with OPs little ?poetry? thing though... Old Quinn was more fun to play and was already in a good spot. I can compare what has happened with Quinn to what happend with Ivern and Zac rework. People thought Ivern was bad but they didn't know how to play him yet Rito decided to buff him too early, with the introduction to new support items Ivern ends up being OP and continues to be pretty overbearing to this day. Zac as well, completely new playstyle and harder to play, Rito over buffs him and once again wapow, OP. Quinn is the same, she had a much steeper learning curve when compared to other marksmen, although she might not be too mechanically challenging she had a lot of decision making involved with her ultimate. The Quinn rework was really unneeded.

One final note, the new Q is much better. It means that enemies that are within melee range of Quinn are pretty much take no effect so Quinn has to try and use it from range. But...

Blinding Assault is overloaded.

Blinding Assault is actually a real stale ability. I know a lot of Quinn players loved the blind and love the nearsight but when you take the time to really break down the ability it's stale but takes up a lot of power in Quinn's kit. Reason being it has high damage, good CC, and procs harrier. Having so much necessity on landing this ability makes the power distribution around Quinn's kit feel bad. Her W and E are strictly utility in comparison and I think that is lame. I DO THINK THAT QUINN SHOULD KEEP HER NEARSIGHT IN SOME WAY, but I also think that it could be done better. Quinn's kit is like 90% Q (I don't even consider her ultimate...) and it's a nice ability but it's just too overloaded.

Comparing Quinn to another unique marksmen like Twitch. Twitch has his Q which has good power on it, his W which has good power on it, his E which has good power on it, and his R which has good power on it. I'm not talking about the strategic thought behind these abilities but I'm focusing on power distribution and I think Quinn's Q just takes so much of her kit. I'm even considering moving it to a passive or something somehow but having it on demand is pretty good...

End of Quinn shenanigans.

Lower jungle experience gain cause that is silly. I'm not sure about jungle changes but it feels like you have to work ridiculously hard if you wanna keep the enemy jungler down so whatever other changes are needed here. (If you're not playing Lee Sin or Elise or some other great early game jungler it's really hard to keep the enemy jungler down even if you do make successful plays).

Lower shut down gold so people aren't as afraid to go for stuff if ahead and makes sure that lead is still present if yah make that one mistake. Lower death timers mid game because that's just silly.