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Assassins and balance, what do you think

XinZhao2WinNhao··10 votes·2,728 views

as someone who mains assassins and high damage bruisers, I care about the state of assassins.

I feel like assassins in general, especially the snowballing ones, get undeserved hate for just being assassins and doing their job. The assassin's job is to gib a carry really fast before they can respond. That is their purpose in the game. That's why immobile carries need to be behind tanks and stuff so they can peel off those assassins. But many people just blame assassins, especially snowballing ones like Katarina Akali Fiora , for being low risk and high reward. for example, katarina: She has to go into melee range and all in in order to get her kills. I don't see how that is low risk. People say she is low risk because she lacks skillshots, but skillshots don't define skill or risk. They are a part of mechanic skill, but in no way defines total skill. Champions like those 3 I listed above have a lot of positioning weaknesses, a weak early game, especially Akali, cooldown restrictions if they don't get resets, and sometimes even if they do get resets, require a lot of gameplay skill and tactics due to squishiness and an overall weakness to CC. That is not low risk.

In my opinion, if people have problems with point and click assassins, why not also complain about point and click tanks that can point and click and stun a whole team for 3 seconds after knocking them up? Or tanks that can 1v5 teams when fed Volibear just as well as assassins? Darius is much more low risk than assassins, in my opinion, much more forgiving of mistakes too and still deals dmg while tanky. other point and click tanks include Warwick Garen

But I want to know you guys' opinions on assassins, especially specifically the ones I feel get undeserved hate like: Fiora Akali MasterYi Katarina Rengar Riven Tryndamere

In my humble opinion, I don't think any of those 6 champions need nerfs or reworks right now. I also don't think that every champion should be mechanically difficult with a lot of delays and skillshots, people say point and click champs are boring, but if every champ was skillshot champ, that would be boring too. not every champ has to be Ziggs or Malzahar. a champion can have a high skillcap without skillshots (MasterYi ) and I don't think every champ needs a skillshot. Many assassins would be bad to have a skillshot because an assassin's job is (usually) to attack the enemy backline, and skillshots could be too easily blocked by minions and tanks to the point that the assassin is completely useless.

please be specific though.

TL;DR: read the whole thing, it's not that long

102 Comments

Cuz197211 votes

They are great for player fantasy, terrible for overall game balance.

XinZhao2WinNhao2 votes

{quoted}

They are great for player fantasy, terrible for overall game balance.

please elaborate

Cuz19728 votes

{quoted}

please elaborate

It feels great as a player to pop in, do cool combos and then pop out.

However, how do you build your game around an archtype that can safely delete an opponent? Make it so the assassins can't safely delete someone? Then it's a best a 1 for 1 trade for the assassin, which is meh from the assassin player's point of view. Have a tank sit in your front and back line? That's meh for the assassin and meh for the other team that is forced an archtype twice. Make everyone as mobile as the assassins? then it's meh for old foggies like me with bad reflexes.

Etc etc.

AMYS GRAVE10 votes

Assassins can take one mistake and use that punish your entire team for the entire game until you lose. If you don't make a mistake, they can still take over a game if any of your allies make one mistake. They don't have to do anything but play safe until that mistake is made and it will be made every game.

In order for tanks to 1v5 the enemy team many many mistakes had to be made. Their overall damage output is low so you have lots of time to react to them. If voli or garen or warwick runs at you he can catch you but it's gonna take several seconds to kill you (unless he is very very fed) and he doesn't have enough cc to kill you without response. you will always be able to do something.

The difference is the ability to react to it. If voli kills me i feel outplayed. If kat kills me it was instant and i'm dead before my ping catches up to me.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

Assassins can take one mistake and use that punish your entire team for the entire game until you lose. If you don't make a mistake, they can still take over a game if any of your allies make one mistake. They don't have to do anything but play safe until that mistake is made and it will be made every game.

In order for tanks to 1v5 the enemy team many many mistakes had to be made. Their overall damage output is low so you have lots of time to react to them. If voli or garen or warwick runs at you he can catch you but it's gonna take several seconds to kill you (unless he is very very fed) and he doesn't have enough cc to kill you without response. you will always be able to do something.

The difference is the ability to react to it. If voli kills me i feel outplayed. If kat kills me it was instant and i'm dead before my ping catches up to me.

but isn't that kat's job. she shouldn't be hated for it. that's like hating simon cowell for saying you can't sing on american idol

AMYS GRAVE6 votes

Yes that is kat's job, but that doesn't mean that it makes for compelling gameplay. If i don't have the cc on my team and i didnt lane against her then i am completely powerless to stop her from taking over the game.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

{quoted}

Yes that is kat's job, but that doesn't mean that it makes for compelling gameplay. If i don't have the cc on my team and i didnt lane against her then i am completely powerless to stop her from taking over the game.

But she does have counterplay besides the CC. For example, build MR or health to sustain her burst, then retaliate after her cooldowns are down and deny her reset

Partholonian7 votes

If anyone on your team has died to her more than twice, there's no way you can afford to build enough defenses to survive her.

The real problem with assassins is that counterplay to assassins depends on EVERY SINGLE PERSON on your team performing well, and doing so consistently. That's fine in pro games. Not so much in the ELO that 95% of players are in.

AMYS GRAVE5 votes

  1. if she starts to get ahead you can't buy enough health or MR to survive her burst, and

  2. she dictates when she goes in, and you will be low health in a teamfight eventually, ensuring her resets.

Lugg10 votes

Nothing personal, but assassins are the cancer of League.

Evelynn Kassadin Khazix Nocturne are the only ones that are currently balanced. All the others need nerfs or rework.

Reasons for this:

  1. Assassins are squishy. I call total BS on this one if they are up in kills at all. Most of them have so much mobility that you can barely hit them at all and if you do get them low, they just retreat, go heal, come back and kill you. Then you have secondary assassins like Riven and Irilia that are tankier than some of the primary tanks in the game. It's ridiculous. I have fought a Riven under turret 4v1 for almost 10 seconds with her taking turret shots the whole time and she quadra-killed us and still lived. Had a game last week were we ambushed a Kat, had her HARD CCd for at least 4 seconds 3v1 and not only did she not die, she killed all 3 of us.
  2. The insane damage. The assassin role it to kill carries. Great, i'm all for that. However when they do enough damage to delete tanks and bruisers as well, there is a big problem. You could literally nerf 25% OF the damage on most assassins and they could still 100-0 carries no problem. It isn't until the tanks have at least 2 defensive items that they can actually face an assassin.
  3. Counterplay. Once again it is the mobility and kits that make assassins Low risk/High reward. People talk about counters to them, but guess what, most of the counters are OTHER ASSASSINS! That is pretty telling IMHO.

I know that I will be downvoted for this post and get lots of ugly replies. But that is because truth hurts. 90% of players who main assassins would never make it above Bronze V without playing an OP champion. That is why they hate the tank meta.

SouL1ess2 votes

You could literally nerf 25% OF the damage on most assassins and they could still 100-0 carries no problem

Not when one defensive item gives you 500-700 effective health in one item.

If you nerf 25% of all assassin's damage, implement something that disables anyone with a carry role to buy Randuin's/Spirit Visage/Banshee's Veil/Sunfire Cape and any other defensive item that gives both health and resists in one item. Just one item (and should be bought mid-game, not late) is enough to make assassins useless, especially if you nerf their damage.

AMYS GRAVE5 votes

assassins aren't useless, you just have to wait until the enemy is low or hasn't gotten a defensive item yet. even if they had one most assassins can burn through one defensive item fairly easily on a sufficiently squishy target even at 100% health.

SouL1ess2 votes

you just have to wait until the enemy is low or hasn't gotten a defensive item yet

...I'd rather not play 4v5 until I get a priority target "low". If my team can reach the priority target, chances are we didn't need the assassin to begin with.

Of course, right now assassins just go 100-0 using their whole kit if the enemy has no resistance items when they have something along the lines of 300AP or 180 bonus AD. But defensive items make all the difference. One defensive item bought in the mid-game is a very worthy investment against assassins and make them unable to exploit opportunities they can exploit before.

even if they had one most assassins can burn through one defensive item fairly easily on a sufficiently squishy target even at 100% health.

Yes, because you invested in 600-700AP and 300-360 bonus AD in order to burn through one defensive item. I somewhat think that it should be the case, where if you invest more than 12k into offensive stats, you can kill a person who only invested 3k into defensive stats.

Lugg6 votes

A Kat with 600 AP can do over 3k damage with her ult alone. Add in her combo and she is easly putting out around 5k in about 4 seconds. So much for that one defensive item.

AMYS GRAVE5 votes

where if you invest more than 12k into offensive stats, you can kill a person who only invested 3k into defensive stats.

I don't believe that at all. An offensive investment approximately equal to a defensive one will counteract it. You are exaggerating to stupid proportions.

Lugg6 votes

If the carry buys defense first, you've won the game already. They won't do any damage to take towers or objectives or to get kills.

Assassins would EASILY do enough damage to delete a squishy with that damage nerf. They just couldn't do it to the tanks anymore.

SouL1ess1 votes

Assassins would EASILY do enough damage to delete a squishy with that damage nerf

Because you never played assassins.

They just couldn't do it to the tanks anymore.

They couldn't even dent tanks if their damage was nerfed by 25%. They can't do it now, they never were able to do it. If you want to actually do math and calculate the damage, and have the tank and the assassin actually have similar gold values spent on their items, assassins generally only do about 50% of the tank's HP with one rotation.

Lugg6 votes

I have played assassins, they kill people so easily, it's not even a challenge most of the time.

You state that assassins generally do about 50% of the tanks HP with one rotation. That is correct. What happens after that is they disengage quickly, wait for the CDs to be back up, and then go back in and finish them off. Meanwhile the tank is lucky if he did 25% damage the whole fight.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes
  1. Assassins are squishy. Just because they can also obey Piccolo doesn't mean they're not squishy. As for Irelia and Riven, their primary class is Fighter in both cases; you know, the archetype referred to as bruisers. Fighter/Assassin champions are generally nicknamed duelists. They do well in extended, solo fights.

Also, I call bullshit on that Riven story. 10 seconds, 4v1 under a tower that's shooting her? Not possible unless everyone against her is horribly under-leveled and doing literally nothing.

  1. Assassins don't delete tanks and bruisers unless they either have a massive lead against them, or if it's very late-game and they've built literally nothing but damage. The former is a case of the tanky champion fucking up, and the latter is a case of stacking penetration being strong.
  1. Counter-play and counters are two different things. A counter would be something along the lines of Talon's Silence making him a(n over)powerful anti-mage champion. Counter-play would be things like avoidable skill shots, breaking tethers, using CC at the right time, or even using summoner spells. And the counter-play to assassins is available; it just takes some actual thinking to figure it out.
Lugg6 votes

Well considering that they last longer in fights than 50% of the champions in the game, I am thinking you don't know what squishy really is. There is a reason they get the majority of pentas in the game. I agree that duelists should do well in extended SOLO fights, but they do well in all fights. I thought that the Riven story would be impossible too, but she had like 5% health left when the final turret shot hit her, but her shield didn't even drop. It was at least the 6th shot in a row. So you would think it would do some damage.

Assassins totally delete tanks until the tank can get a couple defensive items built. That is just plain fact. This gets them so far ahead that when the tank actually gets defense, they have the penetration to negate most of it. That is why assassins clean up fights, tanks and all.

There is counterplay against assassins. The problem is that it is MINIMAL. They are EASILY the hardest class to counterplay against. Like I said they are low risk/high reward.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

Well considering that they last longer in fights than 50% of the champions in the game, I am thinking you don't know what squishy really is.

They can avoid taking damage. There's a difference between soaking damage and avoiding damage.

There is a reason they get the majority of pentas in the game.

Because the archetype's main job is "kill the easy target." Jump in at the right time, take down a priority target before they pose a threat to your team, then either kill the next one or leave, depending on cooldowns and HP.

I agree that duelists should do well in extended SOLO fights, but they do well in all fights.

Duelists are built--as Fighters--with tools that make them not completely worthless in team fights. Because having champions that literally can't function in the main phase of the second half of the game would be horribly imbalanced.

And yes, if you let a duelist individually duel each person on your team, and you don't interrupt/gang up on them, they'll pull ahead and possibly get a penta. That's the risk of team-fighting wrong.

I thought that the Riven story would be impossible too, but she had like 5% health left when the final turret shot hit her, but her shield didn't even drop. It was at least the 6th shot in a row. So you would think it would do some damage.

If she killed 4 champions in 5 seconds, she had enough of a lead that you basically handed her the game in the first place. It's not a case of a duelist being overpowered, it's a case of the team facing her being mentally, physically and technologically handicapped all at the same time.

Assassins totally delete tanks until the tank can get a couple defensive items built. That is just plain fact.

I'll remember that next time I watch Riven vs Renekton, Talon vs Nasus, Leblanc vs Galio, Ekko vs Maokai...

This gets them so far ahead that when the tank actually gets defense, they have the penetration to negate most of it. That is why assassins clean up fights, tanks and all.

Have you ever seen what happens when a tank is laning against an assassin, and they start with Flask, or Cloth Armor+Potions?

The assassin never gets the kill, the tank just keeps farming, the assassin has to recall because minion retaliation hurts, and the lane becomes a standstill because the tank is always keeping up in defensive items.

There is counterplay against assassins. The problem is that it is MINIMAL. They are EASILY the hardest class to counterplay against. Like I said they are low risk/high reward.

The only time that risk is low is if (a) they are allowed to fight on their own terms, and (b) if their opponent isn't a champion that counters them when fighting on their terms.

And not everyone is stupid enough to let an assassin run the lane.

It's low-risk in low MMR, to put it bluntly.

Lugg5 votes

{quoted}

They can avoid taking damage. There's a difference between soaking damage and avoiding damage.

That is what you don't understand. It's really the same thing. Both are hard to kill.

1> Because the archetype's main job is "kill the easy target." Jump in at the right time, take down a priority target before they pose a threat to your team, then either kill the next one or leave, depending on cooldowns and HP.

Assassins do that and most of them still have the short CDs and resources to keep killing.

Duelists are built--as Fighters--with tools that make them not completely worthless in team fights. Because having champions that literally can't function in the main phase of the second half of the game would be horribly imbalanced.

And yes, if you let a duelist individually duel each person on your team, and you don't interrupt/gang up on them, they'll pull ahead and possibly get a penta. That's the risk of team-fighting wrong.

If she killed 4 champions in 5 seconds, she had enough of a lead that you basically handed her the game in the first place. It's not a case of a duelist being overpowered, it's a case of the team facing her being mentally, physically and technologically handicapped all at the same time.

I'm not saying make them worthless. It's just that 1 champions should NEVER be able to win a game all by themselves, regardless of how incompetent their team is.

I'll remember that next time I watch Riven vs Renekton, Talon vs Nasus, Leblanc vs Galio, Ekko vs Maokai...

Renekton can win that lane and still lose hard to Riven late game. Why would you ever pick Talon into Nasus? LB has a hard time killing Galio, but Galio has an even harder time killing LB. She can pop out anytime she gets in trouble. Ekko vs Mao is the same as the LB/Galio matchup

Have you ever seen what happens when a tank is laning against an assassin, and they start with Flask, or Cloth Armor+Potions?

The assassin never gets the kill, the tank just keeps farming, the assassin has to recall because minion retaliation hurts, and the lane becomes a standstill because the tank is always keeping up in defensive items.

If the tank does that, he doesn't do much damage. So the assassin pushes the lane up, roams, gets kills, goes back to lane and rofl stomps the tank.

The only time that risk is low is if (a) they are allowed to fight on their own terms, and (b) if their opponent isn't a champion that counters them when fighting on their terms.

And not everyone is stupid enough to let an assassin run the lane.

Assassins have the mobiility and kits to play the lane on their terms most of the time.

It's low-risk in low MMR, to put it bluntly.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

That is what you don't understand. It's really the same thing. Both are hard to kill.

The difference is that one is hard to kill. The other is easy to kill if you land your shots.

On one of them, regardless of the situation, you need to hit them with the same spell three times to get the same amount of damage as hitting the other with one spell.

They are not the same thing. There's an item that makes tanky champions slightly less difficult to kill, but there isn't an item that turns skill shots into targeted spells so you can guarantee hitting someone.

Assassins do that and most of them still have the short CDs and resources to keep killing.

Not unlike literally every other archetype in the god-damned game.

I'm not saying make them worthless. It's just that 1 champions should NEVER be able to win a game all by themselves, regardless of how incompetent their team is.

That's only possible if the enemy is just as incompetent.

Let me be clear. Assassins capitalize on mistakes. Literally translated, that means that they get ahead when their opponents fuck up.

Renekton can win that lane and still lose hard to Riven late game. Why would you ever pick Talon into Nasus? LB has a hard time killing Galio, but Galio has an even harder time killing LB. She can pop out anytime she gets in trouble. Ekko vs Mao is the same as the LB/Galio matchup

They were just examples of match-ups I have seen happen more often than you would believe, and none of them ever played out in the assassin's favor when the bruiser was any good. Sure, the assassin players were good with their champs--they got kills despite falling behind--but the bruisers can and did still shut them down.

If the tank does that, he doesn't do much damage. So the assassin pushes the lane up, roams, gets kills, goes back to lane and rofl stomps the tank.

Because the tank can't ward his lane and warn his team the moment the assassin leaves the lane, focus on last-hitting while his opponent is gold/XP starving himself to try and gank someone that knows he's coming, recall when the lane is stabilized and come back to the lane with more defense, making the assassin's lane even less enticing. Meanwhile, the tank's team is alerted that the assassin has started roaming, and they start warding on their own (if they haven't been already, like an intelligent team) and can see him coming every time.

Because playing smart is actually a thing.

Assassins have the mobiility and kits to play the lane on their terms most of the time.

And tanks have the CC to force the fight into their terms, or the defense to withstand the fight if fighting back isn't optimal at the time.

Lugg5 votes

You say every champion in the game has the resources to keep killing. You evidently have never played on a Morgana . There are lots of champions that have long CDs or don't have resets and can't keep pumping out abilities.

Assassins do capitalize on mistakes. EVERY champion can do that. The problem is that you can not make any mistakes, but due to assassins having overloaded kits, they kill you anyway. Playing smart is one thing, but assassins have way too much safety or damage (or both) in their kits to be considered balanced.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

You say every champion in the game has the resources to keep killing. You evidently have never played on a Morgana . There are lots of champions that have long CDs or don't have resets and can't keep pumping out abilities.

I did not say "every champion," I said "every archetype." Right...

{quoted}

Not unlike literally every other archetype in the god-damned game.

...there.

And the difference between an archetype and a champion is the difference between a Marksman and Vayne. Vayne is a Marksman, not all Marksmen are Vayne. Apply ad nauseum to every other archetype and champion.

And the thing is, every single champion can return to a fight and provide more support after they've blown their core team-fight stuff. Not all of them have to be gibbing enemy champs for it to be considered useful. There are two archetypes whose only real use are killing champions in a team fight, and that's assassins and marksmen. One is focused on squishy targets, the other is better at killing tanks.

Assassins do capitalize on mistakes. EVERY champion can do that. The problem is that you can not make any mistakes, but due to assassins having overloaded kits, they kill you anyway. Playing smart is one thing, but assassins have way too much safety or damage (or both) in their kits to be considered balanced.

You're literally never going to believe that assassins are balanced if you think someone can make no mistakes and still lose against an assassin. You could apply that to marksmen, mages, fighters...doesn't matter. If you actually believe that the person who lost to their opponent made no mistakes, you're delusional.

Lugg5 votes

If you can't see the writing on the wall that assassins have the least counterplay in the game, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

You're arguments here are so deluded it's sickening. No archetype should be built around being able to dive into the enemy team 1v5 and get out.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Short version: they can't.

Long version: if an assassin dives 1v5 and gets out alive, with kills and without team backup, there has to be a level and/or skill gap between that one player and the entire enemy team. They're not built to be able to do that in a regular team scenario, but it's possible because people are bad at this game.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

They can avoid taking damage. There's a difference between soaking damage and avoiding damage.

Most of them have enough mobility that only point and click cc will allow anyone to hit them at all, and riot has been systematically removing that from the game for some time now.

because people are bad at this game.

If you are done calling everyone else bad we might start taking what you have to say seriously. Because the crux of all your arguments here are "git gud n stfu".

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

Most of them have enough mobility that only point and click cc will allow anyone to hit them at all, and riot has been systematically removing that from the game for some time now.

Really? Because I don't have much problem landing skill shots, and neither do most of the players I see.

If you are done calling everyone else bad we might start taking what you have to say seriously. Because the crux of all your arguments here are "git gud n stfu".

No, I am not calling everyone else bad. I am calling a specific set of people bad. Because they are bad.

Don't know why you'd be so personally sensitive to it, unless you regularly allow assassin players to wreck your team.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Because I don't have much problem landing skill shots, and neither do most of the players I see.

The obvious implication is that you are calling the whiners bad because they can't land skillshots when assassins all seem to have the mobility tools to dodge them. If the assassin is any good you wont be able to.

Don't know why you'd be so personally sensitive to it, unless you regularly allow assassin players to wreck your team.

Your attempt to engage me on an emotional level only shows that you know you have no argument.

Mobility is the counterplay to skillshots, and assassins overwhelmingly have the mobility to counter other classes. AKA Assassins counter other classes, other classes do not counter assassins. low counterplay.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

red herrings

Like the difference between taking vs avoiding damage when the result is the same either way.

or the importance of warding which is independent of what champions are in the game.

or the difference between bruisers and "actual brusiers" which you still haven't explained.

or changing the topic toward the distinction of archetype and champion when a counter example has been presented to you.

or changing the topic to elo when you have nothing else to contribute to the discussion.

lack of facts

ohh i didn't realize that pointing out zeds numbers wasn't facts.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zed

or that the top 4 most popular mid laners are all assassins even in the "tank meta".

http://lolbuilder.net/

or that assassins like katarina or ahri have no losing matchups according to lolking.

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=mid-matchup&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked

sweeping claims that don't actually apply

such as when you said "They're not built to be able to do that in a regular team scenario, but it's possible because people are bad at this game."

Or when you claim that "Assassins are squishy." and i point out that is not the case.

You have made many sweeping claims and we have disproved them all one at a time, and when that happens you always change the subject.

the difference of counter and counter-play

like when i pointed out that mobility is the counter play to skill shots that you completely ignored.

or the difference between squishy champions and squishy builds.

EDIT: hmm we have hit the thread depth limit....

AMYS GRAVE5 votes
  1. Assassins are squishy

As an example.... Zed has above average base health, base armor, base MR, base health regen, scaling armor, scaling MR, and scaling health regen. Many assassins are tankier out of the box than many fighters or tanks.

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

{quoted}

As an example.... Zed has above average base health, base armor, base MR, base health regen, scaling armor, scaling MR, and scaling health regen.

Ooh, shit, Zed has less than one item's worth of innate defense over some other champions. Tank Zed must be the best thing ever, because it's not like his offense is so dependent on offensive items that he'd be literally useless if he didn't pack at least three offensive items.

I hope you caught the sarcasm, because base stats mean jack shit.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

the point....

your head....

there is nothing stopping you from building bruiser zed or glass cannon AD sion other than stats.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

the point....

your head....

there is nothing stopping you from building bruiser zed or glass cannon AD sion other than stats.

And kits.

Zed's kit does not scale with a long-term fight. Bruiser Zed doesn't work on the same level of an actual bruiser building as a bruiser.

Not to mention, Bruiser Zed has the same weaknesses as the actually viable Zed build, except he can take a bit more damage in exchange for not being able to kill anything.

It's true that item builds aren't restricted, but that only means that an off-build is doable, not necessarily viable.

Unless you have amassed plenty of data showing that bruiser Zed is actually viable, you're blowing steam and hot air over base stats, which are only a small part of a champion's kit.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Zed's kit does not scale with a long-term fight.

his scaling is part of his stats, and if he builds some defense he really does....

he can take a bit more damage in exchange for not being able to kill anything.

so he gains the ability to meaningfully teamfight? sounds like it's just a different playstyle that you haven't even considered before dismissing.

Bruiser Zed doesn't work on the same level of an actual bruiser building as a bruiser.

Then please enlighten me, what champions are allowed to build bruiser, O great decider of all things league, and which are forbidden. Seriously you criticize without thinking so you should just stop.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

Then please enlighten me, what champions are allowed to build bruiser, O great decider of all things league, and which are forbidden.

You know, I can't fathom why people project a god complex for me.

It's not a matter of "being allowed" to build one way or another. It has to do with how they viably scale as a champion. It has to do with what they can contribute to a fight as a champion.

Also, I asked for data. Facts. Information. Show me this bruiser Zed, alright? I want to see this thing, and why you believe it's so good. If you actually believe that it's better than the pile of shit I think it is, why aren't you trying to prove that it's valuable, instead of bullshitting and projection?

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

You know, I can't fathom why people project a god complex for me.

maybe its the condescending attitude you take towards everyone on these boards.

Show me this bruiser Zed, alright?

No one plays him. But then again no one played sej until she was discovered to be sleeper OP. Or kennen support until the koreans did. Are those less viable becasue no one played them? Play rates have nothing to do with viability. And the fact that you're calling it a "pile of shit" without trying it or even giving it a seconds thought is just another reason not to take you seriously.

The fact remains you say that base stats don't matter but you call zed squishy, which is your choice in how to build him.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted}

maybe its the condescending attitude you take towards everyone on these boards.

Maybe I just sound condescending because I despise factless bullshitting being used as an attempted argument to try and change my opinions.

No one plays him. But then again no one played sej until she was discovered to be sleeper OP. Or kennen support until the koreans did. Are those less viable because no one played them? Play rates have nothing to do with viability. And the fact that you're calling it a "pile of shit" without trying it or even giving it a seconds thought is just another reason not to take you seriously.

I'm not the only one who hasn't given it a second thought, obviously. I mean, if you can't find a single player in nine servers hosting tens of millions of players that plays that way, maybe you shouldn't pull an untouched idea of a playstyle for an argument.

The fact remains you say that base stats don't matter but you call zed squishy, which is your choice in how to build him.

The fact remains that you're claiming bruiser Zed works with zero evidence. And you can't just drum up evidence in a single day, either, because having a playstyle work requires a lot more than one player's experiences.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Maybe I just sound condescending because I despise factless bullshitting being used as an attempted argument to try and change my opinions.

I've given up on your opinions, i'm just making sure that anyone else reading this isn't swayed by your "factless bullshitting" by actually making arguments beyond "you're just bad git gud".

I mean, if you can't find a single player in nine servers hosting tens of millions of players that plays that way, maybe you shouldn't pull an untouched idea of a playstyle for an argument.

Play rates have nothing to do with viability. 6 months ago not one person played kennen support in nine servers hosting tens of millions of players so this argument doesn't hold up. Kennen support was perfectly viable even though no one played him.

The fact remains that you're claiming bruiser Zed works with zero evidence. And you can't just drum up evidence in a single day, either, because having a playstyle work requires a lot more than one player's experiences.

Then what the fuck do you want? You've admitted that what you've asked for is completely unreasonable and you criticize me for not being able to produce it? seriously? Asking for amassed data on bruiser zed to prove that it isn't a "pile of shit" is the burden of proof falacy because it creates a situation where the claim is not falsifiable.

ItsStout1 votes

Goddam I am so sorry Bass.

Jesus.

Maybe you can explainwhy bruiser Zed is good in your opinion. Because it isn't, because he lacks the fundamental ability to afford to NOT build damage. He doesn't have the innate damage or CC to do so.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

He doesn't have the innate damage

up to 10% max health damage independent of needing damage items.

or CC to do so.

he has a slow to stick to his targets.

if he builds BotRK maybe a frozen mallet and straight defensive items after that he will still have plenty of damage to function as a bruiser as well as slows to ensure that no one will get away.

EDIT: just to be clear this is a side tangent to the main discussion here. JMBC claimed Zed was squishy, i countered by pointing out that his base stats are perfectly supportive of other playstyles because adaptive building is a thing.

ItsStout1 votes

Zed's kit isn't made to sit and wack at people untill they die. He scales too well with damage to make buying defensive items optimal. Maybe his base stats support that, but not his abilities.

Bruiser Zed can work, but its both worse than other bruisers (except maybe Morde, but we don't talk about him) and less useful than assasin Zed, because his kit supports a different playstyle than bruiser.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Zed's kit isn't made to sit and wack at people untill they die. He scales too well with damage to make buying defensive items optimal. Maybe his base stats support that, but not his abilities.

Bruiser Zed can work, but its both worse than other bruisers (except maybe Morde, but we don't talk about him) and less useful than assasin Zed, because his kit supports a different playstyle than bruiser.

Right, my point was that if zed (or any assassin for that matter) is squishy, that's your choice in how you built him. If you find that a drawback then you can build a defensive item to not get blown up at the first sign of cc coming your way.

When assassin mains advise us to build defensive to survive their burst but they can freely build full glass cannon and be fine in any matchup, you know something is wrong.

Irasiel8 votes

I don't hate on assassins for assinating, i hate them because after they assassinated, they usually get a get out of jail for free sort of thing in the form of cd reset or a skill that repositions you from where you dashed/blinked. They should be at risk after they assassinate.

Boulderox8 votes

The problem with assassins is that they are SUPPOSED to be able to get in and have no means to get out. Leona effect. But with so many assassins getting skills which get them in and out with the press of a button Leblanc Zed (when he was a monster)Katarina (all it takes is one kil and shunpo out). I'm fine being popped by Fiora (her ult is still stupid as she heals for no drawbacks...)Talon Diana because they literally have to walk away in order to hope to live an all in dive or summoner 4 .

Also Ekko 3 MOBILITY SPELLS REALLY

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

Assassins should have means to get in and out. That and their burst is literally all they have.

AMYS GRAVE6 votes

No. They should trade 1 for 1 leaving the resulting 4v4 a favorable situation for their team. assassin for adc is a good trade and will win a teamfight. You eliminate a priority target to create an advantageous situation for your team, you are not supposed to be able to 1v5. If you are fighting them and they are all there you should expect to die.

redniwediS1 votes

As a Garen main who plays with people who often end up salty after a match with good assassins against us I have to say I agree with you.

Fighters like Garen are punishers, they do not make the best plays when on equal footing with their opponents, however if their opponent makes a mistake a punisher champion will make sure they regret it.

Assassins are like this as well, however if you make too many mistakes against them they will continue to punish you for those early mistakes long after the mistakes were made. That later punishment for those early mistakes is often what is taken into account, when the counterplay that is supposed to happen is already too late. People fixate on this instead of remembering that they messed up early and that's why an assassin is steamrolling their team. It's not due to a lack of counterplay, it's because they messed up.

Couple this with the fact that people remember negative things far more than they remember positive things and you have a bunch of salty people who are focusing on the wrong parts of a game that should just be an easy learning experience.

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