OhmWrecker Would be useful if it had an active for allied towers as well.

ShadowParker··124 votes·10,911 views

Currently, OhmWrecker is not a first or second buy. So by the time you happen to buy it(If you buy it at all), a good amount of towers have fallen, lessening the impact of the active and essentially becoming useless as time goes by.

So why not impact allied towers as well? Something along the lines of: Increase Tower Attack Speed by X% for Y seconds.

This change increases the usefulness of an item that is pretty much dead right now.

80 Comments

Mister Mackey24 votes

I'd prefer a "choose target turret will aim for" over buffing stats of an already weak turret. If I can make it target squishies on a whim tho would really throw a wrench in some sieges

Dark Nephthys13 votes

Oh god...what if they made it so you can choose a turret from anywhere on the map...I could actually see the item being useful then. Go top lane and get the item and when the bot lane starts fighting, have the top lane use ohmwrecker to hit the bot lane turret.

I'm not sure if that is what you meant by the choose target turret, but would be an interesting idea to make the item more useful...though then I feel it'll become a support buy instead of a tank buy.

Nahara8 votes

I think what he meant is that Ohmwrecker's active would allow you to choose which target the turret was currently shooting at.

For example, in the event of an enemy tower-diving you, you could force the tower to switch it's current target from a minion or tank champion assisting in the dive to instantly start shooting the squishier target. The squishier target thus is forced out of the dive or else they die to you and the tower shots.

Dark Nephthys6 votes

Ah yea I could see that being a pretty good idea for making it a better item. With there being so many champions that could dodge turret hits or become un-targetable, I could see that being a good idea. Would give the item a use for offensive and defensive purposes.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

I'd prefer a "choose target turret will aim for" over buffing stats of an already weak turret. If I can make it target squishies on a whim tho would really throw a wrench in some sieges

Would anyone actually buy an item to defend against tower dives though? I feel like it'd basically be a pointless purchase because you're only gonna buy it if you're losing heavily (why buy an item for an active you don't expect to lose?) and it's not going to make you win, just make you lose a tiny bit less hard.

TotalJerk2 votes

I have pulled off numerous successfully tower dives while losing, and far more have failed because I/we botched it either strategically or mechanically. I've noticed that there's far more chances to set up and carry out tower dives than people realize.

jama6558 votes

i honestly buy ohmwreck at the end of the game on purpose to turn off inhib or nexus towers feels like the most worth to me when an enemy team is trying to defend there inhib/nexus and it just turns black and stops firing the battle field goes silent and all you can here is the spurts and cries of the turret as it tries to resume firing only to fall seconds later and the champions around it stupified at this barely seen item that completely destroyed there counter siege GG item 3056

Paroe7 votes

they actually removed an old summoner from the rift - Garrison - because turtling was a thing.making ohmwrecker useful would just promote turtling =/

ShadowParker5 votes

I think you're talking about Fortify, because Garrison was never on SR.

The thing about Fortify was that it made all turrets invulnerable while increasing their attack speed. So yeah, it was used for turtling. But by just having it increase the attack speed, the turtling power is reduced immensely. Making it not OP, but UP either.

Paroe5 votes

{quoted}

I think you're talking about Fortify, because Garrison was never on SR.

The thing about Fortify was that it made all turrets invulnerable while increasing their attack speed. So yeah, it was used for turtling. But by just having it increase the attack speed, the turtling power is reduced immensely. Making it not OP, but UP either.

Right. A tweaked fortify might actually be viable with the current meta; tower diving means nothing and all champs with a little armor can eat 2~3 tower shots.

RiotMeddler7 votes

Yeah, Ohmwrecker's still in a pretty sad spot. We did try out some stuff during the preseason development period to try and make it more interesting in its niche, with tower sieging still being its core. The most interesting approach, that alas didn't end up working very well, was a version of it that replaced your auto attacks against towers with a ranged channel that dealt ramping damage over time. Gave melee champs a way to contribute siege damage without having to hard commit basically. Was fun to play around with, but hard to justify taking over other options, even on the characters it was theoretically designed for.

At some point we will take another look at Ohmwrecker, though I suspect if it doesn't work out next time we'll probably end up cutting it. Making it less situational, while keeping it tower focused still, could be a reasonable approach, and an allied tower interaction sounds worth a try as a result.

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Ohmwrecker's still in a pretty sad spot. We did try out some stuff during the preseason development period to try and make it more interesting in its niche, with tower sieging still being its core. The most interesting approach, that alas didn't end up working very well, was a version of it that replaced your auto attacks against towers with a ranged channel that dealt ramping damage over time. Gave melee champs a way to contribute siege damage without having to hard commit basically. Was fun to play around with, but hard to justify taking over other options, even on the characters it was theoretically designed for.

At some point we will take another look at Ohmwrecker, though I suspect if it doesn't work out next time we'll probably end up cutting it. Making it less situational, while keeping it tower focused still, could be a reasonable approach, and an allied tower interaction sounds worth a try as a result.

You mean something like the dominion thing? Oooh thats actually a SUPER cool idea; wouldnt a channel to temporary turn an enemy turret into an allied turret be a really cool, niche item?

Bastilean2 votes

{quoted}

You mean something like the dominion thing? Oooh thats actually a SUPER cool idea; wouldnt a channel to temporary turn an enemy turret into an allied turret be a really cool, niche item?

Give this man a chocolate bar

Jeddy0173 votes

At some point we will take another look at Ohmwrecker, though I suspect if it doesn't work out next time we'll probably end up cutting it.

A moment of silence for Zephyr & all the other items we lost this past season.

La Bello2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Ohmwrecker's still in a pretty sad spot. We did try out some stuff during the preseason development period to try and make it more interesting in its niche, with tower sieging still being its core. The most interesting approach, that alas didn't end up working very well, was a version of it that replaced your auto attacks against towers with a ranged channel that dealt ramping damage over time. Gave melee champs a way to contribute siege damage without having to hard commit basically. Was fun to play around with, but hard to justify taking over other options, even on the characters it was theoretically designed for.

At some point we will take another look at Ohmwrecker, though I suspect if it doesn't work out next time we'll probably end up cutting it. Making it less situational, while keeping it tower focused still, could be a reasonable approach, and an allied tower interaction sounds worth a try as a result.

Speaking of Which how do you feel about item 1083 item 3512 item 3504 item 3091

Theyre Items that have been around for a while yet have pretty low build rates.

Personally I love all of them and I dont want them simply removed but I do think they could use a small buff

Nagma1 votes

i think its because they are very situational , but item 3091 just sucks imo

exe33 votes

It feels like you're treating the symptoms rather than going after the cause. On paper Ohmwrecker sounds amazing, an active that disables an enemy turret allowing a hard engage when the enemy was relying on it for protection. So why doesn't that work? Because just simply buying armor and having the tank tank it does the job twice as well. Turrets are just simply useless in this game, they're weak and do no damage past early game, we know it and you know it (I remember you saying previously it was intentional due to fears that games would stall forever).

What needs to happen is that turrets need a major rework to add gameplay to them. Right now they just point and shoot (mostly just uselessly at the wrong target). If they became a real threat with appropriate counterplay then items like Ohmwrecker, Banner of Command and Zz'rot Portal (actually had to check if that was still in the game before posting >_> ) would naturally become ideal assets to pick up.

I imagine turrets where every X attacks against a champion deals additional % max health true damage so tanks can still tank but can't do so seemingly indefinitely (would be best as outer turrets). I imagine turrets that shoot skill shots at the ground that explode in an AoE blast so there's a bit of bobbing and weaving for the enemy as well as creating a bit of waveclear on their own (I think middle and Nexus turrets would work best with middle turrets having slightly higher AS and Nexus having more damage/bigger AoE as that last line of defense). And then I imagine Inhib turrets whose laser gets significantly more powerful over a few seconds but 'overheats' and must cool down before it can attack again. This of course on top of new offensive/defensive items and masteries (Garrison on SR, that could be cool) and much needed AI improvements (the amount of times i'll be just out of range of an allied turret and an enemy sitting right under it damages me yet the turret won't start targeting him is so annoying).

These are just random thoughts but the tl;dr is that Ohmwrecker is great on paper but it suffers from being a counter to something that is already underpowered rather than it being a bad item.

Decrit3 votes

Honestly i don' t feel like that. Turrets do not need jumbled mechanics just for the sake of it. Remember that turrets are something that YOU protect, not something that protects you. What they have as tool is just to protect them from lone champions or common minion waves, and mostly is fine with that. If a champion comes with many others or with a minion wave then that' s it, the player managed to breach the tower.

This however raises another question... do we need an item that makes towers weaker? The main reason there are champions devoted to picking on turrets, let them be splitpushers or AD carries, is because you want to take an objective, not fight it! The only thing you have to fight on is the defenders, but at later stages of the game is not that much worth focusing on disabling the turret but more dealing with the defenders. For this reason the item proposed by Meddler, while not perfect, makes sense on its own: allows other classes different from AD carries to take towers, delegating the role to tanks and bruisers ( that otherwise can hardly take on a turret ) or, maybe, delegating the role to mages with a slight item stat change ( which honestly would be more interesting to me , since tanks and bruisers keep their "defend the squishy and attract the aggro" role contributing to more team collaboration ). The change anyway is focused on taking an objective rather making it weaker. It also makes more ideal the stats given by the item.

Where an item like Ohmwrecker in live could be useful? In cases where there is a scenario like the gates of Heroes of the Storm.

For those who do not know, in HotS there are turrets like in any other moba ( sorta), but said turrets come in pairs and between them there is a gate that allows friendly unit transit and blocks the enemy, with walls at the sides to further block unit transition. This is a thing that always fascinated me because i always thought "why the hell there are turrets here without gates?!" in pretty much any moba, not only for real life comparisons but also for tactical ones. I am digressing. Point is: if the Ohmwrecker were in that situation where it not only disabled the turrets but also the gate, allowing the team to storm temporary the enemy base to get to the enemy, then we have an item with a proper interesting use: it does not fight the objective, but allows an easier fight with the enemy removing a barrier that is not stat-bound like turret damage, resulting in a tactical advantage.

I know those bilge rats at Riot already thought this, if i recall right GC said a while ago that they were tempted to change Ohmwrecker active so it could be able to deactivate the side gate of the base, but that proposal died out not only because it was weird to have on a tank item, but also because side gates were meant to be a base _advantage _ and not something that could go against the defending team.

exe31 votes

It's a fair point you make but I feel to an extent turrets should be able to do something during a dive scenario, they are meant to be a safe zone of sorts (not immortal zone, but somewhere where you have an advantage). It just feels unfair with no correct action that could have been taken with many of the types of dives that take place atm, the onus seems to be on the divers to not screw up rather than the defender to make a good play.

I'm not trying to suggest we make them super powerful, capable of defending themselves singlehandedly. I'm suggesting we should give them some tools that allow them to actually help the defending champions protect it, rather than just have it be ignored most of the time like is the case now.

I also don't agree that these would be changes for the sake of changes. The introduction of Zz'rot Portal implies that Riot does want there to be more back and forth over turret play but the issue holding that back isn't items, it's the turrets themselves.

Decrit1 votes

Well, honestly to me they do feel like being protective enough at the moment, at least at the early stages of the game.

Probably we have just a different vision of it - to me, a tower range is just a place where it is inconvenient for you to fight, even deadly at the early stages of the game, but is not a death sentence zone; i see it as a high risk high reward one, but not one where for a fail you are condemned in any case.

I like to see the game space opening up the more the game goes on without actually removing or adding artificial barriers to the game, and this reflects that. If a tank is able to withstand many hits then it is deserved, it dedicated itself to that and pushes a proactive use for tanky items.

Numbers more, numbers less, but the idea is there. In a game so subtly tied to numbers where an ignite can make a whole difference from a kill or not, i think that towers are clear and do enough.

It can be the case that i am so concerned about making the game conservative and stale that i am pushing away some needed safety however, that is debatable.

SonicÐeHedgedawg1 votes

An allied tower buff seems like an obvious start, but have you considered that, especially with a CDR cap of 40%, there are just too many mandatory items for supports to buy this one?

Gold generation item +10% CDR Boots of Lucidity +10% CDR Sight Stone Zeke's Harbinger +10% CDR

So, I mean, now we're looking at AT BEST a 5th pick, and since you have no magic resist in that build so far, honestly what are the odds of Ohmwrecker being a better pick than an Aegis upgrade or at least a mikael's Crucible (all of which give 10% CDR and cap you)?

Maybe if Zeke's wasn't the better armour /CDR option for a support 99% of the time, or sorts didn't have so many essentially mandatory purchases that all give them CDR....

AL0001 votes

no, please dont change that sleeper item... its very great core item on garen (and maybe other champion that i dislike to play)

therefore just dont nerf or change that benefits to garen... i was upset when you remove or nerf items for garen...

remember old atma's implar? removed... remember old ghostblade? nerfed... remember old IE? convert to adc... remember old sunfire cape? nerfed... remember old spirit visage? nerfed... remember old randium's omen? nerfed...

so dont torture garen anymore... he cant use the common items....

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Ohmwrecker's still in a pretty sad spot. We did try out some stuff during the preseason development period to try and make it more interesting in its niche, with tower sieging still being its core. The most interesting approach, that alas didn't end up working very well, was a version of it that replaced your auto attacks against towers with a ranged channel that dealt ramping damage over time. Gave melee champs a way to contribute siege damage without having to hard commit basically. Was fun to play around with, but hard to justify taking over other options, even on the characters it was theoretically designed for.

At some point we will take another look at Ohmwrecker, though I suspect if it doesn't work out next time we'll probably end up cutting it. Making it less situational, while keeping it tower focused still, could be a reasonable approach, and an allied tower interaction sounds worth a try as a result.

What if ohmwrecker had the channel you describe for enemy towers, plus this for allied towers:

Active: Bond to nearby ally tower. Redirect X% of damage that tower would take to you.

Now it's both a tool to help your team seige, and offers a unique and useful thing in the form of counter-siege. It would be useful in situations where you're on a low waveclear champion and/or team and are behind, but really need to protect that (inhib) turret to stay in the game.

NA Darklarik1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Ohmwrecker's still in a pretty sad spot. We did try out some stuff during the preseason development period to try and make it more interesting in its niche, with tower sieging still being its core. The most interesting approach, that alas didn't end up working very well, was a version of it that replaced your auto attacks against towers with a ranged channel that dealt ramping damage over time. Gave melee champs a way to contribute siege damage without having to hard commit basically. Was fun to play around with, but hard to justify taking over other options, even on the characters it was theoretically designed for.

At some point we will take another look at Ohmwrecker, though I suspect if it doesn't work out next time we'll probably end up cutting it. Making it less situational, while keeping it tower focused still, could be a reasonable approach, and an allied tower interaction sounds worth a try as a result.

Please dont :C its a great splitpushing item. I use it on Udyr and other split-pushers too to keep hitting the tower even after your minons have died for some extra hits since it can be activated to re-set the tower damage.

Pikmints6 votes

Ohmwrecker could use some love, and there are plenty of ways they could add defensive functionality.

Passive:

1: Apply a growing shield to nearby towers. If you remember the shield that the outer tier 2 turrets gave to champs before, I'm suggesting something similar but in reverse. Standing near a turret would continue to place a growing shield on it up to a cap and the shield would fade if you left it's range.

Active:

2: Make an ally turret shoot faster. This is extra punishing to people who dive and help turrets clear minion waves faster.

3: Make a turret's shots deal splash damage. This doesn't punish divers more, but the waveclear is still enhanced and all enemy champs that want to avoid damage would need to stand away from their minions.

4: Perhaps Riot would be willing to bring back a reworked Fortify through this item. You would need to be in range of the one turret you want to buff (unlike Fortify's global & all-turret buff). Fortify helped with divers and waveclear by increasing the turret's attack speed on top of making it invulnerable for a period.

  • An alternate take on this could have it work like Tryndamere's ult, the turret would be able to take damage until it hit 1 hp. If this buff persisted for, let's say 15 seconds, then it would prevent those dives that happen right before a turret falls and would still be worth considering even if ranged champs would be able to auto the turret once after the buff wears off. Much more conditional that the normal version.

5: Give a turret the ultimate anti-minion buff. This could only be used on a turret once a nearby minion applies the armor-reduction to the turret and this buff would persist until the armor-reduction would go away. Enemy minions will deal no damage to the turret and all shots from the turret will instantly kill any minion hit. If an enemy champ would draw aggro, the turret would receive an offensive buff (speed/damage/range/etc.) until it went back to using it's standard buff to kill the minions. This would help during conditional dives and would help against mid-late (especially baron enhanced) pushes.

6: Reduce all damage the turret takes for a period. This doesn't punish divers, but can extend the lives of the turrets since their armor was nerfed this season. Not as useful during laning phase, but it could help those defending against the mid-late pushes. It wouldn't make turrets invincible, but the added defenses would deter pushes where the defense has at least the same number of champs as the offense.

7: Force the turret to shoot an enemy champ in range. This could work by either selecting the champ you want it to shoot or by having the item automatically select the enemy champ with the lowest current health. This could be used to get enemy champs away from your turret, change the target during a dive from their tank to their carry, or finish off a low health enemy that's in range of your turret.

  • An alternate take on this could have the turret lock onto all enemy champs in range until they each leave it's range. This would heavily punish dives but not help waveclear at all.

So plenty of possibilities are there, just have to find one that would feel rewarding, fair to play against, and not become too strong of a choice. Of course those could also come down to the numbers on the buffs, but with that item's current niche it needs something to be worth picking over the other items.

Bârd5 votes

Turn it into a modified {{summoner:17}} "Allied Turret: Grant massive regeneration for 4 seconds Enemy turret: Disable basic attacks for 3 seconds"

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

Ooh... love this idea. Makes you a tower man in both directions, so it's now useful on offense and defense. Very good idea, and they should continue ideation on that to get something workable.

Dr Birdie4 votes

Active: Using this on an allied tower causes it to attack whoever you attack for the next four seconds.

Dark Nephthys3 votes

They had something like that on the pbe a long time ago, it was like "If used next to allied turrets, increases the turrets damage by X amount for 3-4 seconds" And I believe the X was 100% but not to sure on it. Honestly...the item isn't even that bad stat wise, it gives cdr, and a good amount of health regen and even more armor than sunfire cape for about the same cost.

But yea if you don't plan on getting as your first or 2nd item, than it usually isn't worth getting. I think the item would see more play if they maybe give it another 100 hp, because while it's stats is decent...to make it more useful you need to buy it early and 300 hp is kind of low for a first/second buy tank item, at least at 400 hp you could feel like it's a little bit more for tanks.

I could see this item being good for tanks who are aggressive and would like to dive, also champions who also like health regen. DrMundo Garen Shen Volibear Zac

ShadowParker2 votes

The item is actually great stat wise, the cdr and armor+ health is super useful. It just doesn't fulfill it's role at the current moment though with it being a niche item on tanks. And if you take it on a tank 3-4 items in, you don't exactly need the active anymore.

Rikari3 votes

turret now lives for 2 seconds longer Tryndamere you wanted more bans? now items are bannable.

MrSlowDie2 votes

or instead of increase its attack speed how about give it some kind of invulnerability? like Your turret gains 2 million armor and MR for 1 second???

ShadowParker1 votes

There was a summoner spell called Fortify that made turrets invulnerable with increased attack speed. Making a turret invulnerable is too strong.

MrSlowDie2 votes

imo invulnerability is weaker than attack speed. With invulnerability enemy still can tower dive you. But with increased AS, tower diving will be too risky, and it also indirectly increases turret's life span because the turret will clear minion faster

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

imo invulnerability is weaker than attack speed. With invulnerability enemy still can tower dive you. But with increased AS, tower diving will be too risky, and it also indirectly increases turret's life span because the turret will clear minion faster

Yes but towers are not just buildings under which the enemy team can dive champions. They are also buildings that the enemy team wishes to destroy. Invulnerability might not be strong against tower dives but it's a -lot- better at stopping turrets from dying.

MrSlowDie3 votes

but at least it gives counterplay. counterplay that given by AS increase is just "Don't tower dive because they may activate ohmwrecker the moment you jump" which encourage turtling, iirc fortify was removed because of turtling potential it gave.

with invulnerability, you can just "I'll dive them, kill them, and destroy the tower after that", or "I'l just poke them to death instead, turret's AS is low so It won't deal too much damage if I am being targeted". And turret invulnerability usually just used to buy times so ally can respawn and come to help.

so AS increase : encourage defensive play invulnerability : encourage offensive play

AS increase : can directly flip the table if you activate it right after someone jump to dive. the diver most likely will dead, and it's a possible free dragon/baron/turret for your team. invulnerability : can't directly flip the table. You can only wait for your team to come, if you win the teamfight, you flipped the table, if no, it's just useless invulnerability because the turret will be destroyed anyway

SociopathFriend2 votes

Considering the current active disables towers, an opposing idea would be to empower them. Maybe you could have the shots deal extra magic damage?

Azteryz2 votes

what about make allied turret untargetable from enemy champions? so only minions would be able to attack it

morris12 votes

DW Riot already fixed this in an earlier patch. .... It's a sleeper op change to make it meta but noone knows about it...

+50 gold total cost

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/3-24-2015/d_HKai.gif

Robert Smith2 votes

"Unique Passive-While within ally tower attack range enemy champions you target will also be targeted by the tower. Targets hit by the tower this way also take an additional (50% base AD) and their damage is reduced by 20%. This affect does not stack with passives of the same kind"

Yuumi or Lose1 votes

Well they are already reworking item. One of the reds commented on thread a long time ago that a prototype of the rework lets you channel a laser that shreds towers AND epic monsters (dragon and baron). It should be scheduled to release by next year.

ShadowParker2 votes

If it was from a long time ago. I doubt it's still being worked on. The item would have came out already.

Not too mention they stated when preseason came out that if OhmWrecker (and Zz'rot) didn't pick up, they'd remove them.

Szunray4 votes

Speaking of, why the eff does riot remove underused items? I use it, but if I can't convince 450,000 people to use it I can't have it anymore?

ShadowParker2 votes

If Riot kept underused items for a small population, think about how many items we would have :/ Not too mention they would have to stay on top of all of them to ensure they wouldn't become op for a certain character. I think what they're doing is smart.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Speaking of, why the eff does riot remove underused items? I use it, but if I can't convince 450,000 people to use it I can't have it anymore?

The shop is incapable of handling past 120 or something.

Szunray1 votes

That's... understandable. Kinda weird, but if it can't hold more than a certain amount I would understand why they remove items.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

That's... understandable. Kinda weird, but if it can't hold more than a certain amount I would understand why they remove items.

The shop really does need an entire overhaul though. items in other maps would be very useful in SR.

Decrit1 votes

I am not sure it is a codification driven problem. I mean, being able to increase store size is something that Riot could do very well in order to let some items in, not saying it is a quick job but still a optimal one in order to add worthy items to the rooster.

I guess the problem is more data driven: do you want the players to handle 120 items? How are said 120 items? If said items are a variation of each other ( like enchants of boots and gems ) then is understandable, but if there are 120 unique items then things start getting hazy.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I am not sure it is a codification driven problem. I mean, being able to increase store size is something that Riot could do very well in order to let some items in, not saying it is a quick job but still a optimal one in order to add worthy items to the rooster.

I guess the problem is more data driven: do you want the players to handle 120 items? How are said 120 items? If said items are a variation of each other ( like enchants of boots and gems ) then is understandable, but if there are 120 unique items then things start getting hazy.

Riot has actually flat stated that theres a hard cap to the items in the shop due to how its coded, and going over that number of items breaks the shop.

Decrit1 votes

I explained myself badly, sorry.

I am aware of the hard cap, but like anything else you can update it in order to support more numbers. It means that actually there is an hard cap, but it can be pushed further if that is necessary. A bit like the spectator problem of a while ago, there were so many people spectating that they broke the cap. What Riot did then? They increased it, with a bit of work but they did it.

Obviously, if that work is unnecessary then they avoid it. If there is one or two cool items they want to add to the shop but it causes to break the limit, you can be assured that they will rise it if it is worth it: even if it does not get fully used it will just mean that in the long term they have more room to add stuff without problems.

TL;DR is an autoimposed limit for conveniency.

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