Flask needs to be removed or Changed!

Romans VI XXIII··1 votes·769 views

Flask is probably the single most broken early game item in the game. For the same reason Riot made caps on HP/MP Pots flask should be removed or changed significantly. It makes champions that are supposed to have a weak early game completely ignore the "weak" part and easily out sustain and out damage their counter part. Here is math behind why no one should ever go mid (and possibly top) with Dorans ring or Blade over flask (even non-mana champs, Just pots instead of flask).

Over all Assumptions, Average spell costs 75 MP. Average Damage is 60 + .6 AP/AD on spells (at lvl 1). Assumed base mana pool of 275. This does not take into account the HP/MP u get from lvling, but we are assuming they are the same for both champs (which they nearly are for most mids) which makes it negligible.

Flask + Pots Restores 120 HP and 60 MP, 3 Charges

  • you can buy 3 more pots, usually its 3 HP pots or 2 HP and 1 MP (we will use this for the calcs as its the most used). = 120 * 3 +150 * 2 = 660 HP = 60 * 3 + 100 = 280 MP

So taking in our assumptions we get: 660 HP / (60 + (.6 * 15))AP = 9.56 Spells worth of HP from an opponent with Dorans Ring/Blade (275 MP+280 MP)/ (75 MP) = 7.4 Spell casts

Note: none mana champs would run 5 HP pots, being able to take more damage. and unlimited casts.

Dorans Ring + 2 Pots 60 HP 15 AP 3 MP/5 4 MP on kill

So assuming you get every single minion kill with 6 in each wave (yes i know there is 7 occasionally but 4 MP every few waves isn't going to change anything), and assuming until your first back (roughly 7 waves some times more depends on scenario), with 30 seconds between waves.

60 HP + 150 * 2 = 360 HP 4 * 6 * 7 = 168 MP 3 MP/5 * 30 * 7 = 126 MP 168 + 126 = 294

So taking in our assumptions we get: 360 HP / (60 + (.6 * 0))AP = 6 Spells worth of HP from an opponent with Flask (275 MP+294 MP)/ (75 MP) = 7.5 Spell Casts

Note: the math for the blade would show you being able to take a fraction of a spell more (but obviously have unlimited casts)

So what does this mean?

Well if its Flask VS Ring, then Ring can take 6 spells, but Flask can cast 7.4 spells (Flask can Kill Ring) Flask can take 9.56 spells, but Ring can only cast 7.5 spells (Ring cant Kill Flask)

Flask both out sustains ring/blade, and out damages ring/blade in the early game. Making "weak" early game champs actually stronger than their counter parts that are almost always running Dorans.

Edit: some of the math looks funky cause of the stars im using for Multiply By, ive tried fixing but it doesn't seem to work correctly

10 Comments

Charmed by Ahri2 votes

Well, Flask is an awesome early game choice. Besides the standard offensive dorans ring/shield/blade start. Gives players another option for a more defensive laning phase with added sustain through out the game. Costs 345 g, which is probably more gold spent than just buying pots through the game. So, in theory the cost of the flask out weighs buying pots outright but the item is unique and different. The item refills on backing and can't be used while at fountain. The item can't be used simultaneously with pots. Pots actually give more sustain than that of the flask itself, but it basically removes the option of having to constantly buy pots. A small investment that can be used through out the game. If anything the flask could be changed by removing 20 health in exchange for 20 mana buff. So 100 health per charge use instead of 120, opposed to 150 health pot and then 80 mana gained per charge use instead of 60, opposed to 100 mana for a pot. But overall the item is an investment which makes you lose damage early for sustain and it even is less sustain than pots. Far from OP. Since champions who buy the item early lose damage but gain some charging sustain. A defensive item that does it exactly what it's meant to do, is be defensive.

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

But overall the item is an investment which makes you lose damage early for sustain and it even is less sustain than pots. Far from OP. Since champions who buy the item early lose damage but gain some charging sustain.

No one read and Under-stood the math.

Its simple mathmatics

More MP = More Spell Casts = More Damge

More HP = more damage taken = more spells that can hit

Since flask both out spell casts and out HPs Dorans then it is CLEARLY more powerful both on sustain and damage.

More math for you

345g Flask = 360 HP and 180 MP = 2.4 HP pots and 1.8 MP = 147g

So 345/147 = 2.35

This means that by your 2nd back (3rd time using flask, 2nd time refreshing it) flask is more gold efficient than buying pots on every back.

PLUS, since you are not using gold on buying pots you have more gold to spend on items, because you will never need to buy pots again, and it only takes 1 item slot as opposed to 2 slots if you want both MP and HP pots

You can not deny the math.

FACT: Flask is stronger than dorans (both in HP and MP sustain, along with Damage) FACT: Flask is more gold efficient than pots after 3rd use and beyond (gaining efficiency the more you use it)

Shyvauni1 votes

I have beaten Flask users in both mid and top. While ring may sustain less spells, those spells are hitting harder due to the ap on the ring.

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

Can you not read? can no one read?

Yes you deal like 8 more damage per spell with dorans ring. that is LAUGHABLE

With flask I can cast many many more spells than a dorans ring, and at low lvls the base damage is what does nearly all the damage not your AP ratios.

And if you simple read the math I have the ratio added into the calculations and the flask STILL out damages AND out sustains RIng

ITS SIMPLE MATHEMATICS THAT YOU LEARN IN PRESCHOOL!

Shyvauni1 votes

Except your basing your math purely on assuming perfect play from both players. And as I stated ive beaten out crystaline flask starters with dorans items. Flask is not the end all be al you make it pout to be. Now go whinge elsewhere

LadyRenly1 votes

If you are are one of those "weak early gamers" buying flask, you are opting out of damage in exchange purely for sustain.

Sorry, but I think it is necessary. Some lanes are just straight up unfair,and flask helps keep me from dying for the simple crime of blindly ending up in a terrible matchup

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

Read the math, you do less damage with dorans ring than you can with flask its simple math.

More MP = More Spell Casts = More Damge 15 AP at lvl 1 is nothing in comparison to multiple extra spell casts along with significantly more HP

On top of this, most "early weak" game champs have high base damage.

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

Sorry, but I think it is necessary. Some lanes are just straight up unfair,and flask helps keep me from dying for the simple crime of blindly ending up in a terrible matchup

So you picked a "weak" early game champ who is supposed to be "WEAK" early game. flask completely over rides this, making champs with "weak" early strong late completely ignore the "weak" early game part. making it impossible to keep them from getting strong in the late game

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

how do people not understand the math?

Its simple facts that I proved with the math.

FACT: Flask is stronger than dorans (both in HP and MP sustain, along with Damage) FACT: Flask is more gold efficient than pots after 3rd use and beyond (gaining efficiency the more you use it)

Cruk1 votes

Costs for each spell doesnt mean that the champions will cast that many spells, Flask gives survivability, dorans gives all in potential. Theres a difference.

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