When I read Riot's concepts on design and what they learned over the years, I've become curious on what exactly they have learned from season 1 and onward regarding champion design. They also seem to prefer niche champions with clear pros and cons than those who have a bit of everything. What champions should they start looking at who have too much in their kit? What should their niche be?
Teridax684 votesBruisers in general have too many effects piled onto their kits, starting with 
and 
who started the general trend of gapcloser + hard CC + sustain + steroid kits that so many top laners have. It's preventing them from scaling well (which is why the most popular top laners tend to qualify as lane bullies with more or less irrelevant late games), it's preventing each individual fighter from having a distinct gameplay niche (due to the large overlap in effects and mechanics), and I also think it's negatively affecting melee champions' ability to deal with ranged enemies and each other in a healthy manner (the falloff in their abilities leads to kiteability and "slap fight" issues). The worst offenders, imo, are 
and 
, along with the above two.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesSo is it mostly melee that are the issue? Isn't that a result of ranged? Are there any bruisers with a well balanced kit? I should also ask what champions have a well balanced kit for comparison.
Teridax683 votesThis is getting a little close to the "ranged versus melee" debate that launched multiple heated threads a little while back. While the original motivation behind overloading bruisers was so that they could reach ranged champions, I don't think ranged champions are themselves bad. Bar exceptions like 
, whose perma-slow was a major factor in mobility creep, ranged combat tends to be healthy, so for example there isn't much of a problem with ranged vs ranged. The problem comes with ranged versus melee, which tends to be fairly binary in the sense that melee can't do anything if they get kited, but they'll kill any ranged character that can't kite them. Ranged characters don't have this problem, since they have range of their own, but so far a lot of melee champions have been given gapclosers specifically so that they can get in range, which then leads to the problem of balancing melee so that they don't instagib ranged champions once they get in range, which often means ineffective spells and so much focus onto base stats and tanky builds that you often end up with a meatshield that can't do much besides take damage and occasionally apply CC.
A good example of a bruiser that's not overloaded is new 
: he has very tightly controlled sustain, his only gapcloser is his ultimate, and overall he has clear weaknesses (he's kiteable, there are clear windows where focusing him makes him weaker), but also extremely pronounced strengths (he's got beastly crowd control and tankiness, and a great initiation tool). From the looks of it, he also scales extremely well into the late game, unlike most other bruisers. Another "good" bruiser would be 
, who has great mobility and DPS, but also clear moments where he's weak and can be punished (namely, the time in between enhanced autoattacks). Both have ways to deal with ranged enemies, and also make melee vs melee interesting through the use of their abilities.
Chromatic Eagle2 votesHow do you all feel about adc kits? Overloaded? Should adcs be like Lucian, Corki, Tristana, Vayne, or Ashe? What about Ezrael?
Teridax682 votesGenerally, I don't think ADCs have overloaded kits, but a lot of them don't have clear weaknesses or are just not optimized properly. 
is an example of a champion with no clear weaknesses: sure, she has a weak mid game, but otherwise she's the safest marksman around, deals mixed damage and has a really good attack speed steroid on top of an amazing range steroid. There isn't really a way to tackle her, which is why she's so popular now. 
sort of runs into similar issues (he's also a super-safe champion with great poke and a very good escape), but at least doesn't hyperscale into the late game. His kit is sort of poorly optimized, however, in the sense that his W and E damage bolt have no real use or flavor when he's going AD. 
I think has damage types going all over the place (he deals physical, magic and true damage no matter what he builds), which is sort of good for him because it's hard to counter-build, but also not good for him because it prevents him from scaling that well with penetration and hampers his late game.
If there had to be an overloaded ADC, I'd say 
would fit the bill closest: she has good mobility on top of powerful CC and enormous range, and has so many answers to enemy plays in lane that she tends to feel oppressive even when she's not poking the enemy marksman. She pays for all of this with terrible late-game scaling, but that's the same issue as with most other overloaded champions (overwhelming early game due to kit overload, followed by poor late game scaling).
ProfDrDeath3 votes
is up there with Caitlyn, too.
ADCs kits also know another form of overload, one that's less easy to appreciate: The three aspects of mobility, high range (on either abilities or autos) and AoE damage for waveclear. Add these general strengths on top of the respective unique aspects, and you can see why certain AD carries are pretty much favored.
Most of the current "OP" crop of AD carries have all of these traits:
: Mobility in the resetting jump, high auto-attack range and good waveclear on auto-attacks by virtue of Explosive Shot. Add her self-peel capability and the strong 
, and you have a carry with no weaknesses.
: Mobility? Supposed to be his identity. Range? Rather low AA range, but three of his abilities are rather long ranged and AoE => Good waveclear (Godlike on ult due to 4x damage to minions). Also, the passive's ability to crit allows him to use the strength of , too, while serving as his main steroid.
: One of the highest range non-target dashes, as well as two rather spammable long-range abilities with AoE damage for waveclear. Also, difficult to counter-itemize due to mixed damage.
: While not the exact meta champion right now, she has the same three traits, as well as her utility through the traps and her unique ultimate.
Balancing these kind of full-toolbox-and-then-some AD carries will always be somewhat difficult, as they can prove quite resilient to small nerfs. For example, for as long as BT was a strong rush item, Caitlyn was always a possible pick. Same is true for Corki, who resurfaced during the Summer LCS despite not having received changes to himself.
If you consider the other mobile ADCs, they always give something up for their mobility:
: Has no waveclear and no way to extend her range of influence beyond the one given by auto-attacks. Features the unique strength combination of being a tank-buster and a strong duelist.
: Low waveclear and reduced AA range. To access her greatest mobility tool, she has to sacrifice her range completely.
: A ton of mobility, but all of it MS-based. Good waveclear, but the brunt of it is rather short-ranged (Q can't clear waves along due to the damage fall-off). Low AA range. Strengths: Team utility, Spell Shield
: Long ranged abilities and good mobility (one of the few blink-type spells). Lacks waveclear except for the occasional ult. Can be very annoying to deal with, but appropriately balanced in strengths and weaknesses (weakness: If you close in on him, he dies fast. Lowest ADC base HP and defenses).
Ironclad Dragon1 votesThe newer champions have meatier kits generally.
"What, your Q only does one thing?"
SnowFall1 votes
list of champs with overloaded kits
Chromatic Eagle1 votesMost of those I can agree with, but I would still like for you to explain if possible. What you can manage of course. For example, what about J4 is overloaded?
MrSc0tty2 votes
.....Volibear has an overloaded kit. Let's see...no instant gapcloser, one primary skill that deals appreciable damage that is on a three autoattack delay, all melee range....I'm not seeing it. His kit is about as overloaded as Garen's.
Also, Kog'maw will always have a lack of burst options coupled with immobility. He's got balance levers even if he's relally strong when itemization and pick meta favors him.
ProfDrDeath1 votes : Care to elaborate?
Kog being too strong is mostly a numbers issue and could easily be rectified.
Lolibear has a lot of annoying stuff - but general overload?
Chromatic Eagle1 votes
Kog being too strong is mostly a numbers issue and could easily be rectified.
Lolibear has a lot of annoying stuff - but general overload?
Maybe Kog has nothing unique to him.
I guess voli is like Xin? Charge and a slow instead of a knockback.
ProfDrDeath1 votesSo, being a long-range tank shredder + artillery without significant escapes isn't a good identity? Also, his kit is mostly the opposite of a generalist's kit - focused around single-target shredding (Q, W) with a slow for to keep them in your shredding range/keep them from punching your squishy face in. And the ult is pretty unique, as it is the only spammable artillery-like move in the game.
MrSc0tty1 votesPersonally, in terms of champs who are truly "overloaded" and have very little in terms of balance levers and niche...
Fizz Yasuo Lee Sin Nidalee Orianna Lucian Tristiana Ryze.
That's about it.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesFizz- I want to agree, but I don't know enough about him. I know he got nerfed and that there's a bit of l2p to beat him.
I should probably ask what is defined as "overloaded". I think people will have different definitions on it.
12tales1 votesFizz is a shit laner who has to chose between defensive mobility and damage, can't assassinate anybody w/ Zhonya's or QSS, lacks safe waveclear and basically does nothing if he can't hit very specific item breakpoints.
Yasuo is a squishy melee with no waveclear or sustain that can't access his offensive potential without constantly standing within short range of enemies. He's also extremely reliant on teammates to have a significant effect on teamfights and does fuck all against exhaust.
Lee Sin's scaling is one of the shittiest in the league, he lacks hard cc (or appreciable soft cc) pre-6, his ganks are absurdly skillshot reliant and he can't initiate on anyone with flash up.
Nidalee just got the absolute shit nerfed out of her.
Orianna is immobile, squishy, and not terribly good in lane. She also has hefty opportunity costs associated with any offensive actions she takes, especially in the early game.
Kinda agree on Lucian on Tristana.
Ryze is short range, immobile and squishy. He's one of the easiest champions in the game to abuse as a jungler, and when he falls behind, he falls behind hard because of how reliant he is on hitting 2800/3500 gold very quickly.
I think that Kha'Zix is definitely an offender here. He's a tanky, high damage poke fighter/assassin that punishes both grouping up and staying separate, has fantastic objective control and clear speed, and is nearly impossible to chase down or run away from. Very few abusable weaknesses.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesI'll try to avoid melee vs ranged then. How do you feel about supports and tanks? I think Morello mentioned Braum, Thresh, and Nami having generalist kits. What about Jungle tanks and Top lane tanks? Do they have too much cc or damage for what they do?
Chromatic Eagle1 votesI really appreciate the feedback. What do you think about assassin kits?
Chromatic Eagle1 votesThen I don't know why people include Kog.