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bloodrazer is so useless that you're better off not buying a jungle item

shyv··8 votes·1,299 views

no, i'm not kidding.

you're paying 2600 gold for 40% attack speed and a little bit of tank shredding that really doesn't help former devourer junglers at all.

the point of picking a devourer jungler was that it was high risk high reward. you could easily delete squishies, but only if you afk farm for a minimum of 15 minutes, and you're still super easy to kite.

we don't need tank shredding because our job isn't to deal with the tanks. when have you ever seen MasterYi Shyvana Jax Tryndamere Warwick not dive the enemy backline, and instead peel for their own carries and poke down the tanks?

that's not how those champions work. they all make awful tanks and have no peel. yi has no CC, shyvana's only cc is interruptible, warwick's JOB is to lock down the enemy carries.. you get my point

if you don't believe me, feel free to look up stats on any of these champions. i'm not saying stats count for everything, but talking with other shyvana mains we pretty much all agree that you should go cinderhulk or not even get a full jungle item.

some are even considering runic echos shyvana instead of bloodrazer. that's how bad it is.

for the lazy:

http://champion.gg/champion/MasterYi/Jungle

http://champion.gg/champion/Tryndamere/Jungle

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana/Jungle

http://champion.gg/champion/XinZhao/Jungle

none of them building bloodrazer. at all.

14 Comments

LankPants3 votes

Champ.GG is a really bad website for looking at item buildrates. LoG gives a much more complete picture.

Shyvana Yi Xin Tryn

All of these champs are building Bloodrazor over 50% of the time, even when including off lane build rates.

if you don't believe me, feel free to look up stats on any of these champions. i'm not saying stats count for everything, but talking with other shyvana mains we pretty much all agree that you should go cinderhulk or not even get a full jungle item.

The only reason Shyvana built Devourer over Cinderhulk before was because Sated was flat out broken. If Sated had been a somewhat balanced item I doubt Shyvana would have bought it. Shyvana has always been a champ who heavily prioritises defence, when she suddenly starts building a pure offensive item that's probably a sign that something's wrong.

The %HP is also pretty good against squishies anyway. Have you ever seen a Kog or Fiora complain about someone being too squishy for them to kill? They don't because that's not how %damage works. It's just as effective VS a squishy as it is VS a tank, in fact it's better because the tank will reduce it more with armour.

Jacknife1 votes

Well, Max HP% is good against everyone, not just any percentage chunker out there. Not only that but the damage type either has to be true damage or scale with the typical build path of the champion. Varus is the best example, with pretty big % numbers in his kit, but with the way it's applied and the fact that it's magic damage, it falls fairly flat come late game.

DorkunedAuras2 votes

Shyv has always been a champ to build 1-1.5 damage items. A 0 damage item shyv does nothing, as pure tank shyv can't do enough to be a threat and has no CC. She has to be a threat, and usually builds sated, or bork, or titanic or something.

Surr20plz2 votes

I never buy that garbo item.

Zarkkast2 votes

That highest win rate Xin Zhao build tho.

Narvuntien1 votes

Well then!... it is good to see someone actually bring stats and a compelling argument to the boards rather than just rage.

Hmm good point the item 1419 ability is the wrong ability for these champions.

I am thinking about what the right ability would be, I am thinking like a stacking ability that charges up by killing neutral creeps then deals burst damage when you hit a champion kind of like item 3742

shyv1 votes

not a bad idea, but that seems pretty similar to echos lmao

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

not a bad idea, but that seems pretty similar to echos lmao

Only in the sense that item 1402 is a clone of item 3285, which was itself an AP clone of item 3087... and yet, there are still important differences between all of them.

I think the thing about item 1416 is that it was clearly intended to be a jungle item 3153 in a similar way to item 1402 item 3285 or item 1401 item 3068 ... except that it doesn't have the two things people mostly buy item 3153 for, the sustain and the active. Even when the health shred is secretly ridiculously good it still isn't visible or exciting. (Unlike some of those jungle items based on normal items, though, there's nothing stopping you from buying both...)

Riot seems to think that it's legitimately undertuned this patch and they probably have reasons for that, but I predict that even when it's actually strong (its health shred on PBE is stronger than BOTRK's overall, because it's maximum health rather than current), it will still be underappreciated.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

when have you ever seen MasterYi Shyvana Jax Tryndamere Warwick not dive the enemy backline, and instead peel for their own carries and poke down the tanks?

Considering how good they are (Yi especially) at killing the enemy tanks... pretty often, actually. Focus down the tank if the carry isn't an immediate threat and kill the front line. If the carry isn't a threat at that particular moment, killing the tank will tip the team fight pretty heavily in your favor.

Obviously if you can dive and kill the carry from the start by all means do so, but focusing a tank who over-extended (or if their carry is being zoned by someone on your team) is a perfectly valid way to fight. I say this as a Yi jungle main.

That said, I do agree with the spirit of your post. Bloodrazor is the only jungle encant that is only good against a single type of champion. Health stackers.

If the tank was dumpstered in lane it provides very little help with killing their fed as hell Twitch or Zed.

Desiderium1 votes

{quoted}

you could easily delete squishies, but only if you afk farm for a minimum of 15 minutes

You don't see the problem with this? (﹃.﹃)

KillerKell1 votes

{quoted}

You don't see the problem with this? (﹃.﹃)

Except you never had to AFK Farm for 15 Minutes.

You had to have Successful Ganks.

Which requires your Team putting people in position to gank.

So if all Lanes are pushed, sure... you AFK Farm for 15. What are you going to do for 3 Pushed Lanes outside of Counter-Gank?

But if they set you up, you come in and take the easy kill... get the Gold and XP Advantage... and makes farming up Sated all the easier (and faster).

The best Sated Players didn't ignore their team, but then their team didn't push all 3 Lanes to Turret and wonder why no gank was coming.

Keti1 votes

o come on bloodrazor isn't that bad, it's getting buffed anyways.

and the only reason people are flirting with the idea of runic echoes on shyvana (I think I brought it up in the shyv group lol) is because she's getting a new AP ratio and shyvana scales great with the movement speed it gives.

shyv1 votes

u aren't the only one i've seen playing runic echos shyv. i'm not saying it's good, but the fact that there are people who would rather play runic echos than bloodrazer really says something lmao.

the buffs might help but idk. just feels like WAY too much attack speed and no dmg. i've been running AS runes and i usually always rush botrk so that's a fucking ton of attack speed with only 25 damage. i could change my build path but then..... idk what to build honestly .-.

i'm really used to building botrk and it fits my play style really well because im a casual and i get kited all the time, so blue smite with the active on botrk makes it easy to go Fast

i just don't like it. gonna go back to cinderhulk titanic?

idk im lost without devo. i used to main shyv top but that's pretty much garbage now.

Kadajkox1 votes

Bloodrazor is not useless, it just filled a very different niche than what people expected. It has ridiculous synergy with attack speed and armor pen, so the 2 champions that are really good with this item are Xin and Vi, because they have both in their base kit. The champions listed in OP don't, so they don't work so well with this item.

I am a Vi main myself and you would think that warrior is the best enchantment for her, since it gives whooping 60 AD and CDR right? Wrong, I was just blown away by how much more powerful Bloodrazor is on her in every way. But then again, hey I am just a low Dimond animal.

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