On the other hand Bot-lane is a gank fiesta, too often determined by outside influences

Hexs Fortune·Mar 14, 2018·33 votes·2,368 views

Here's a frustrating, yet common scenario for me.

One team overloads bot, gets a kill or 2 and takes the turret/dragon.

The other team decides to sit in lane/jg, grab 15 cs and take 1/3 of the tower before backing.

Meanwhile the botlaners have no real options. Stronger towers would grant a more reliable measure for dealing with this sort of thing. However we all know, that in their current state, turrets are often inadequately punishing aggressive (risky) plays during the laning phase.

At the very least, the team that wants to abandon their lanes to force a win in bot should pay a higher opportunity cost.

44 Comments

RalanrMar 14, 201815 votes

Honestly if Riot could make Botlane a little less necessary to utterly stomp then maybe it wouldn’t get camped so often.

Hexs FortuneMar 14, 201820 votes

{quoted}

Honestly if Riot could make Botlane a little less necessary to utterly stomp then maybe it wouldn’t get camped so often.

The point isn't why bot's getting camped, it's that it's too easy to camp without paying any real opportunity cost. Also the towers don't do their job.

RalanrMar 14, 201820 votes

Maybe towers should start firing faster.

RaiyzaMar 14, 20182 votes

That would be a great start.

GigglesOMar 14, 20185 votes

Gotta make slow attacking champions harder to cs with, great solution.

RalanrMar 14, 20189 votes

Just throwing stuff and seeing what sticks.

Yaśuo MainMar 14, 20185 votes

A better idea would be the tower attacking faster on champions, with a normal speed on everything else.

GigglesOMar 14, 20185 votes

Or we could just increase tower range, and make it safe to sit under tower. Make a trap free zone with reduced traps too, like the cait traps. We could give ally MS buff under tower, there are lots of things, and lots of things have been proposed to riot. I honestly don't think they give a fuck.

Jet SettMar 14, 20186 votes

Ooh! Ramping attack speed to punish those sloppy dives that so many people narrowly escape from. It still makes room for tower dives while punishing ones that weren't thought out at all.

SpecterVonBarenMar 14, 20183 votes

Maybe make it so getting turret agro makes you a target for it further away than it's normal range?

In that I mean, say current turret agro range is 100 and a ranged champ hits someone from 95 range from the center of the turret. Currently this person would lose agro once they get to 101 range. My proposal is to make it so you keep agro until you get to 121 range.

So you'd still gain agro from the same range but you'd KEEP agro for a longer range. It would make dives riskier and make poking someone trying to hug their turret harder to do.

PB4UAMEMar 15, 20182 votes

It already does this, it can fire several hundred range beyond its aggro radius, including over the walls in the jungle--provided you have vision there, and they aggro to their target first, before said target gets out into the wider range.

I wanna say they have 700-750 range and can keep aggro to almost 1,000?

Edit: looked it up, and here you go.

Turrets initially had 700 range, which was later buffed to 750.

Additionally, they have a vision range of 1,095 and can fire at targets they aggro on, up to the edge of their vision range, before switching to new targets Note, try not to confuse their vision range with their stealth detection range, which is a flat 1,000.

PoskeMar 14, 20183 votes

Horrible suggestion extremly anti melee

Flawless FetusMar 14, 20181 votes

Not a bad idea imo. I could be dumb for this (I forget ehy they made bot tower squishy), but what if bot tower were the tankiest tower instead? 5 man gangbangs bot would be less prevalent if it wasn't a free tower.

Daddy AntsMar 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Maybe towers should start firing faster.

Towers need to do more damage, especially to tanks.

They should either

Do escalating % max hp true damage per shot up to a cap.
Attacks ignore 50% of their targets TOTAL ARMOR.

PB4UAMEMar 15, 20181 votes

Tanks are literally designed to tank things, and are SUPPOSED TO BE the dedicated tower tankers. You are actively supposed to be punished not for having your tank tank the towers as is their job (which you changes would do, as tanks would be taking massively more damage than any other class not just inspite of, but directly because they are choosing to invest in defense and survivavbility. Your suggest is tantamount to having super buffed thornmail effects on all the tower to make ADCs die for trying to attack them, actively punishing them for doing their designated job, which is to push down towers) but for having anyone who is NOT a tank diving towers and being focused by the turret.

Daddy AntsMar 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are literally designed to tank things, and are SUPPOSED TO BE the dedicated tower tankers. You are actively supposed to be punished not for having your tank tank the towers as is their job (which you changes would do, as tanks would be taking massively more damage than any other class not just inspite of, but directly because they are choosing to invest in defense and survivavbility. Your suggest is tantamount to having super buffed thornmail effects on all the tower to make ADCs die for trying to attack them, actively punishing them for doing their designated job, which is to push down towers) but for having anyone who is NOT a tank diving towers and being focused by the turret.

Tanks are meant to be initiators and damage sponges for their team.

Not meant to sit under a tower for 12 years while their team dives no risk.

TLDR - Tower Diving especially in the early game has no risk but maximum reward.

That's what needs to change.

AetherArisingMar 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Maybe towers should start firing faster.

how about we take the Twisted Treeline versions where each tower shoots faster and faster, up to nexus which really incentivises Baron plays and more than just 1 inhib, so it's far easier to shred the innermost

Hell, the T.T. outermost turrets are stronger than any summ. rift ones if i recall, aside from maybe health? Someone who plays a lot of T.T. correct me on this if i'm wrong.

That'd be a lot healthier, because safe champs can't just AFK and read a book and cook lunch while still having time to CS the whole wave, whilst aggro champs cant just non-stop dive and ignore tower completely.

Lil Homie bustaMar 14, 20181 votes

Rift Herald would be able to fix this issue, if it didn't take so much time to kill it.

BestPudgeNAMar 14, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KUVXhQz2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:11:58.717+0000)

The point isn't why bot's getting camped, it's that it's too easy to camp without paying any real opportunity cost. Also the towers don't do their job.

Bot lane is always harder to gank then top or mid. 2s v 1s are much easier then 3 v 2s. Bot lane is also has a much easier time playing safe then other roles. More over putting a better bot lane behind a few kills is never enough. The better bot lane will still win even if they start 0-4 so long as the other roles by them enough time to farm. It takes a hard stomp like 10-1 kinda stomp to shut down a better bot lane but it's borderline impossible to stomp a better bot lane 10-1 even if mid/jg are perma camping that shit and playing better.

FatedSaviourMar 15, 20181 votes

IMO botlane is the easiest to gank unless via tp ganks, i suck at those, because you have a tank support to initiate, or an enchanter support to apply the tiniest CC, and you come in and just do anything, and thats a gank, from my small pool of junglers ill give experiences, or, scenarios (sion, throw e, land q, free gank) (zac, throw e, land q, free gank) (kayn, use e, land q, throw w, free gank) (my little brother when he plays ww, use e, land q, free gank) i realize most of these are tanky but thats just who i am, give me examples of other junglers if you really want to and ill give scenarios for them

PapaGreg21Mar 15, 20181 votes

It's true. Not to mention bot lane usually has champs with flash and heal and exhaust while you maybe have an ignite or TP in other lanes. Plus more warding is usually going on in bot.

BlåbæretMar 15, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KUVXhQz2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:11:58.717+0000)

The point isn't why bot's getting camped, it's that it's too easy to camp without paying any real opportunity cost. Also the towers don't do their job.

The main problem is ADCs being too strong. Not getting your ADC ahead is basically a loss in the current state of the game. This is the main issue which Riot refuses to fix. The bot tower needs a significant buff and ADCs need heavy nerfs.

DracosKasuMar 15, 20181 votes

Bot lane is easy to gank since they overpush with small lead, easy gold on first tower and easy to snowball because your adc will get feed. Let not forget dragon buff control.

So yeah, bot lane = win if you team have the lead there

Lisa TolskyMar 15, 20181 votes

Good post

HópeMar 14, 20186 votes

Love the bot lane camp and being unable to do anything in response.

KythersMar 14, 20184 votes

nerf jg buff turret make laning phase last more than 6 minutes

ty hire me riot

CyrosiMar 14, 20183 votes

I think that's more of a botlane balance issue. Although I think a lot of us wished towers are stronger. What I mean is that ADC now carry the entire team, and the other roles aren't as important. I think ADC should have the option to be more self sufficient but lose some carry potential so that other lanes actually matter. Then supports could roam and actually support the whole team.

Someone said it better here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5IEAHhsP-adcs-need-to-lose-their-carry-monopoly-and-supports-need-to-help-the-whole-team

Nea104Mar 14, 20183 votes

Too. Much. Damage.

And they're doing nothing about it, or sometimes even the opposite. DSuch a dark future :D

SubdueMar 14, 20182 votes

So, the argument here is that one team devoted 60-80% of their resources to one lane while the other team did nothing in response, and as a result the first team took the objective, and that's supposed to be a problem?

Why didn't the second team hard push a different lane to take that tower in exchange? Why didn't the second team provide assistance to not lane when they saw the gank?

Why shouldn't a team be rewarded for being more proactive and collaborative than the enemy team???

GigglesOMar 14, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Why didn't the second team hard push a different lane to take that tower in exchange? Why didn't the second team provide assistance to not lane when they saw the gank?

Dat early game tower fortification that reduces damage in other lanes that aren't botlane.

SubdueMar 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Dat early game tower fortification that reduces damage in other lanes that aren't botlane.

Is the scenario described in the original post supposed to happen 5 minutes into the game? I've never had that happen. And if not, then fortification isn't really an issue, right?

BloodbornSMar 14, 20182 votes

It wouldnt be a problem if botlane wasnt so much more valuable then everything else. In the current meta botlane decides games so it doesnt matter much if you got a kill toplane or even a tower if your botlane is getting stomped in exchange.

FCJAAAAGOOOOMar 14, 20182 votes

Before, dragon wasn't an easy kill nor something that warped the game as much as it does now. Nor was taking the first tower or snowballing your botlane.

Now all three of these things are the most reliable ways to win a game of League of Legends.

GigglesOMar 14, 20181 votes

Damage is too high, so objectives and things like tower diving are too easy.

PB4UAMEMar 15, 20181 votes

I think you're either willfully being ignorant here, or else you've simply forgotten how massively those elements, and the reward structures behind them, have changed in the last two years from how League was preseason 1 all the way through Season 5.

mew28Mar 15, 20182 votes

What are you on dragon is as hard as ever kill Panth used to be able to solo dragon at lv1.

GigglesOMar 14, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KUVXhQz2,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-14T16:06:20.671+0000)

At the very least, the team that wants to abandon their lanes to force a win in bot should pay a higher opportunity cost.

Deload tower gold, and make outer towers slightly easier to take. Remove first tower gold, and then make outer towers 50G. Great job you now opened up the rest of the game for rotations. Games still end faster, Games aren't as snowbally because of abusive amounts of gold. Roams can be punished by lanes hitting tower.

MarshbouyMar 14, 20181 votes

I agree.

Playing bot lane drives me insane because it is usually boils down to "which team got the most ganks?"

BALDG1VEN BOOMERMar 14, 20181 votes

The irony that people complain about bot lane feeding yet they're stilling willing to come five man fiesta bot lane.

PapaGreg21Mar 15, 20181 votes

Your team has the option of overloading bot as well. Just communicate with your team to do so and you'll probably find this strategy is helping you snowball games instead of getting mad that everybody is doing it to you. It's only an unfair part of the game if everybody can't utilize it equally.

Attticus FinchMar 15, 20181 votes

League is a team game.

I wish "my lane should be an island" shitters would just go play Starcraft or a fighting game already.

SpecterVonBarenMar 15, 20181 votes

Bot lane is the king, but the true power of bot lane comes from the one standing behind the throne which is all the other lanes.

muted team chatMar 15, 20181 votes

My current strategy as jungler is the always start at the top of the map and b-line to bot lane for a lvl 3 gank. On a big winstreak right now too. A successful bot gank is the early game equivalent of a baron.

PeachyPosteriorMar 16, 20181 votes

Honestly I think this all comes down to ADC's. Make their items more expensive or weaker. Possibly a bit of both. Either would help. I think a slight buff to towers should also be in order.

######make it so first wave towers are buffed until someone gets the first turret. Then they go to regular stats. Possibly extend this to apply per wave. So second wave turrets are buffed until one team takes down a second wave turret. Or not; depending how the inital first buff affects the game all together.

As someone who mostly plays mid or bot what I usually notice happens is bot lane gets a few ganks, a few kills, and then get their first item + boots while the enemy is still trying to get enough CS for a first item. Then winning bot lane get tower, takes drag, and/or brings it all to mid and then mid becomes a 5v5.

Making it harder for ADC's to get their first items and/or having their items wielding less power will help extend the laning phase. In mid lane being 5/0 means I have decent items and have my enemy laner playing passive / getting their jg to help more Being 5/0 in bot lane means I have the tower taken already and I'm laughing.