@meddler How is ten bans fair?

Bultz·Jan 6, 2017·2 votes·1,461 views

I don't think it's fair that you have just allowed for some people's mains and champions to be perma banned. Your excuse of "diversity" Is a complete lie. Now it will be even less diverse. People won't be banning for "diversity", they will be banning based on champions they hate and have no skill to play against. I don't know how far you plan on allowing 10 bans, but if you think people outside of pro players will deal with it well you're kidding yourself.

If you plan on making so many bans allowable, you have to create ban immunity for people not to feel stripped of their champions.

41 Comments

KaiokoJan 6, 20179 votes

If champions are getting banned constantly then it means they need to be addressed. It's not these people can't play around these champions it's that the champions themselves are unhealthy to the game. And yes Yasuo is one of those - not overpowered but definitely unhealthy and unfun for the team playing with him and against him.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If champions are getting banned constantly then it means they need to be addressed. It's not these people can't play around these champions it's that the champions themselves are unhealthy to the game. And yes Yasuo is one of those - not overpowered but definitely unhealthy and unfun for the team playing with him and against him.

Actually I disagree 100%. It's because they can't play around them and lack the skill. As for Yasuo, notice how only low elo players are complaining while pros don't even bother banning him because he is so easily countered? It's because Yasuo is fine, but takes skill to beat.

KaiokoJan 6, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Nero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KMK2dfT1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-06T17:39:06.957+0000)

Actually I disagree 100%. It's because they can't play around them and lack the skill. As for Yasuo, notice how only low elo players are complaining while pros don't even bother banning him because he is so easily countered? It's because Yasuo is fine, but takes skill to beat.

I never claimed he was overpowered I claimed that he was unhealthy to the game which is a far different thing. I do play at the Plat/Diamond level so I am quite aware of what his ban rate and performance is at those levels.

It still doesn't change the fact that he's frustrating to play against and needs to be changed and the 10 bans will bring that to light. Let me repeat that in case you didn't understand -- NOT NERFED, but CHANGED.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I never claimed he was overpowered I claimed that he was unhealthy to the game which is a far different thing. I do play at the Plat/Diamond level so I am quite aware of what his ban rate and performance is at those levels.

No, he is not unhealthy. Unhealthy is being able to one hit champions after you stun them Orianna Annie . Unhealthy is being able to build pure tank and still do more damage than everyone TahmKench Malphite Nautilus . Unhealthy is even being able to stack 5 ap per kill Veigar . Yasuo is by no means unhealthy.

It still doesn't change the fact that he's frustrating to play against and needs to be changed and the 10 bans will bring that to light. Let me repeat that in case you didn't understand -- NOT NERFED, but CHANGED.

So you want to be spoon fed against every champion, right... Listen there are a lot for frustrating champions should we delete them all? Listen to me very carefully, he should not be touched. As for diversity, don't play Lux, Jinx, and Fiora and you will have your diversity.

Attticus FinchJan 6, 20178 votes

As you're a Yasuo main, how objective do you think you can be when discussing the state of Yasuo in the game?

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KMK2dfT1,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-06T17:56:55.617+0000)

As you're a Yasuo main, how objective do you think you can be when discussing the state of Yasuo in the game?

Very, because I was fine with him when his win rate was the lowest in game season 4. Btw where were these whinners to buff Yasuo when his winrate was the lowest in game? They fucked up his build season 5 after buffing adcs and fucked up his kit and build season 6. Now you want to change his kit and nerf him some more? Hell fucking no. He is at 50% or below win rate. He is easily countered. Has plenty of lane counters. He is fine and these turd burglars wanting nerfs because they need something to circle jerk about because they play champions like lux and jynx nearly every game, who don't counter Yasuo, then cry about him being overloaded or overpowered or un balanced is bull shit.

Attticus FinchJan 6, 20176 votes

I don't think you're being very objective- as even in this post you're essentially making a straw-man. I've been following the discussion in this thread and most of the people you've been debating against have explicitly stated that they don't think he's overpowered, but unhealthy/unfun to play against.

So, parroting his win-rate and arguing against nerfs is arguing against arguments that aren't even being made.

That's not very objective thinking.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KMK2dfT1,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-06T18:11:06.649+0000)

I don't think you're being very objective- as even in this post you're essentially making a straw-man. I've been following the discussion in this thread and most of the people you've been debating against have explicitly stated that they don't think he's overpowered, but unhealthy/unfun to play against.

He isn't unhealthy and as for "unfun" that is not a fuckign arguement.

So, parroting his win-rate and arguing against nerfs is arguing against arguments that aren't even being made.

That's not very objective thinking.

I don't think you understand objective thinking m8. Name one reason 10 bans is okay or one reason Yasuo should be nerfed and btw "unfun" is not acceptable as it is the fucking definition of "Straw-man"

Attticus FinchJan 6, 20176 votes

Name one reason 10 bans is okay

It allows all players to remove champions that they don't want to play against from the match- increasing the quality of the match for them.

I don't think you understand objective thinking m8.

Well, I understand that objectivity means analyzing something without your judgement being clouded by bias or emotional investment.

You obviously have quite a bit of an investment in playing Yasuo specifically, which I suspect is the root of your dislike for the new ban system.

and btw "unfun" is not acceptable as it is the fucking definition of "Straw-man"

How so?

BultzJan 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KMK2dfT1,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-06T18:24:47.376+0000)

It allows all players to remove champions that they don't want to play against from the match- increasing the quality of the match for them.

and permanently removing it for others. Why should I give a fuck that they don't like a champion. Learn to deal with life it isn't just a given that you should have easy lanes every game.

Well, I understand that objectivity means analyzing something without your judgement being clouded by bias or emotional investment.

You obviously have quite a bit of an investment in playing Yasuo specifically, which I suspect is the root of your dislike for the new ban system.

How so?

My logic.

Okay lets analyze Yasuo then. Under 50% win rate. Has multiple counters in every lane. Has 20 damage to start with in his attack. CC easily counters him. He has to build the most expensive items in game to be effective. His shield is auto poke-able. He has low hp, around 650-750 to begin with. Short range. He is a fighter who can't engage in team fights. No escapes without a target. Easily ganked. Easily denied farm. Can't activate his skill shots without a target to hit first. Can't use ultimate without knock ups. Heavily based on players skill and not utility of the kit. His speed is easily countered by many items, most notably thornmail. His lifesteal countered by mortal reminder. His damage countered by armor and hp. etc. etc.

Your logic.

He is unfun.

That good sir is a fucking straw-man argument in it's fullest.

EndlessSorcererJan 7, 20171 votes

Why should I give a fuck that they don't like a champion. Learn to deal with life it isn't just a given that you should have easy lanes every game.

Why should we care that you like a champion?

Learn to deal with life.

RalanrJan 6, 20175 votes

Even though we've had pros say Yasuo is broken.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Even though we've had pros say Yasuo is broken.

He is not broken and this coming from you who posts about nerfing all melee champions means very little.

RalanrJan 6, 20174 votes

What are you referring to?

RalanrJan 6, 20178 votes

It supports diversity because it forces players to have a larger champion pool. This will hit FOTM players especially hard because of how people collectively nerf powerful champions when they are meta.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It supports diversity because it forces players to have a larger champion pool. This will hit FOTM players especially hard because of how people collectively nerf powerful champions when they are meta.

Yasuo Hecarim Katarina LeeSin Leblanc Caitlyn Teemo Riven Camille Darius

This is going to be the general makeup of what bans will look like, it may change with metas and a champion or two, but would be the regular and these champions would never see the light of day.

MoetaroJan 6, 20172 votes

Thanks god, because most of them are pure cancer.

Maximum MordeJan 6, 20179 votes

What's the problem? Sounds like the game would actually be fun for once.

RalanrJan 6, 20173 votes

So that does influence the meta. This showcases more diversity since those champions feel more commonly picked.

You could have all top junglers banned and suddenly we'll get junglers we don't get to see much of.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So that does influence the meta. This showcases more diversity since those champions feel more commonly picked.

You could have all top junglers banned and suddenly we'll get junglers we don't get to see much of.

You know that isn't going to happen and you know it well. The only thing the system will do is increase ban rates on already hated champions, nothing more, the same champions will be played over and over.

RalanrJan 6, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Nero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KMK2dfT1,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2017-01-06T17:46:43.276+0000)

You know that isn't going to happen and you know it well. The only thing the system will do is increase ban rates on already hated champions, nothing more, the same champions will be played over and over.

Not if they are banned. That's the point.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Not if they are banned. That's the point.

yeah no, why should they be banned when people have put time into learning them and others not have their champions banned, and you know 100% its always going to be the same bans because the majority of scrub plays play champions that are crap in fights and thrive on kiting from a distance.

RalanrJan 7, 20171 votes

Except it's not. The bans will differ by elo.

DrCyanideJan 6, 20175 votes

If a champion is permabanned (much like Kassadin of old) then it spells out that there's a problem with that champion. It's a hint that the balance team should maybe look at the reasons why no one wants to play with/against that champion.

There's only one champion on that list of yours that would be a regular, and that's Yasuo . Every other champion you've listed has come and gone according to their popularity and win rate. People already do their best to make Yasuo never see the light of day, so it's not like anything changed there either.

The real question is "how is anything less than 10 bans fair?" You don't get to ban a champion because of where you were randomly assigned in the pick order. You have to pick first and don't get to ban a champion that counters your intended pick.

10 bans, even if permabanned (worst case scenario), only hurts the mains of 10 champions. Everyone who mains or is comfortable on one of the other 120+ champions is fine.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If a champion is permabanned (much like of old) then it spells out that there's a problem with that champion. It's a hint that the balance team should maybe look at the reasons why no one wants to play with/against that champion.

Nope, no problem and your statement is bullshit. Old Kass was ripping people apart and all section of the game. He had no problems and was nerfed for being way too strong. Yasuo isn't way to strong. The same people who cry and ban yasuo also state they stomp Yasuo, but find him "unfun" os they ban and cry about him. Being unfun and broken like kass was are not correlated. Yasuo is at a below 50% win rate. Has counters. Has counterplay. He is fine.

There's only one champion on that list of yours that would be a regular, and that's . Every other champion you've listed has come and gone according to their popularity and win rate. People already do their best to make Yasuo never see the light of day, so it's not like anything changed there either.

You're kidding yourself if you think he is the only one and need to stop circle jerking.

The real question is "how is anything less than 10 bans fair?" You don't get to ban a champion because of where you were randomly assigned in the pick order. You have to pick first and don't get to ban a champion that counters your intended pick.

No that isn't the fuckign question. Banning the same champions who are only banned because you are "annoyed" by them isn't fucking right.

10 bans, even if permabanned (worst case scenario), only hurts the mains of 10 champions. Everyone who mains or is comfortable on one of the other 120+ champions is fine.

That is the stupidest shit I've heard. I won't accept having champions banned for people while others have it easy are you fucking kidding?

DrCyanideJan 6, 20174 votes

You act like I haven't seen Yasuo's rip people apart at every stage of the game before. The reason I stopped spending a ban on him is because I swapped to playing Xerath . Since Yasuo can only windwall one of my spells now, I'm able to actually play around him. A good Yasuo still leaves extremely little room to counterplay him, even if you do manage to counterpick him, you should know that.

Yasuo and LeBlanc are the only ones on that list that are consistent bans. Camille is a new champion, she'll stop being banned after she's been out a few patches. Hecarim and LeeSin are Junglers that are currently strong, they'll be swapped out when the meta shifts. Same goes for Caitlyn in her role as ADC. Katarina is mostly banned when she's strong and popular, just like Fizz Zed Rengar Shaco or any other assassin. Teemo getting banned is a joke, on par with banning Urgot. Darius and Riven also rarely pull bans, most commonly by players who have recently had a bad experience against them.

Yasuo has remained a constant ban (unless other priority bans shove him out) because of how hard he counters massive sections of the champion pool. His win rate is on par with LeBlanc's at 49.56%, he's certainly not weak.

It's perfectly right to ban champions you find annoying to play against or can't play against effectively. Why do you think MF Support got banned at Worlds? It was annoying, effective, and SKT didn't have a good counter to it.

If you don't like having your champion banned, go play Blind Pick or pick a less frustrating champion.

warpenguin555Jan 6, 20174 votes

who the fuck bans teemo?

EndlessSorcererJan 6, 20177 votes

If a champion isn't grossly overpowered and approaches permaban status, then that is a good indication that there is a fundamental issue with their kit or playstyle.

While I know perfectly well how to play against and crush Yasuo, his playerbase tends to be rather toxic and he is unfun to play with/against due to his kit and playstyle.

I don't even particularly care about his state of balance. I am noticeably happier when Yasuo isn't in the game, so I make sure he isn't.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If a champion isn't grossly overpowered and approaches permaban status, then that is a good indication that there is a fundamental issue with their kit or playstyle.

No that isn't how it works. You not liking a champion and there being something wrong with him are not the same thing.

While I know perfectly well how to play against and crush Yasuo, his playerbase tends to be rather toxic and he is unfun to play with/against due to his kit and playstyle.

Toxic people on league, well i'll be, news to me. right.... And your point is? unfun and unbalanced/nerf or change worthy are not the same thing. As for him being unfun, he has been around for years, but now suddenly he is unfun? stop please.

I don't even particularly care about his state of balance. I am noticeably happier when Yasuo isn't in the game, so I make sure he isn't.

And that is a load of shit. Your excuse to perma ban someone is that he is unfun. much logic.

EndlessSorcererJan 6, 20174 votes

You not liking a champion and there being something wrong with him are not the same thing.

See, that would be the case if it was just be. However, if enough of the community dislikes him to the point of permabanning him, that would generally be a good indicator that something is wrong.

As for him being unfun, he has been around for years, but now suddenly he is unfun?

Considering how high his ban rate has been for years, "suddenly" isn't really applicable.

Your excuse to perma ban someone is that he is unfun. much logic.

Considering this is a game and games are supposed to be fun, I don't see why this would be an issue. He makes the game less enjoyable for me, therefore I ban him.

Honestly, your current behaviour only reaffirms my (and probably that of many others) decision to ban Yasuo.

Congratulations.

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

See, that would be the case if it was just be. However, if enough of the community dislikes him to the point of permabanning him, that would generally be a good indicator that something is wrong.

No. It actually isn't. I've been on the forums for years and the only real arguemnt people have against Yasuo is that he is unfun. They don't have any facts and the statistic shut down their whole argument. Either give real reason or go away. Unfun is not a logical reason for anything.

Considering how high his ban rate has been for years, "suddenly" isn't really applicable.

It's been high been high because the circle jerk crew has been around for ages.

Considering this is a game and games are supposed to be fun, I don't see why this would be an issue. He makes the game less enjoyable for me, therefore I ban him.

Considering he has a player base of 13% and people find him fun, I do see why this is an issue.

BastionKrossJan 6, 20174 votes

Darth Nero, eh? I like to think I'm force sensitive as well. At least a little. Power of precognition or something close to that.

For example, as soon as I read your post, I immediately had this overwhelming feeling that you were a Yasuo main.

I'm a little too old for Jedi training though. May have to settle for the Grey Jedi robes. I don't want to go Sith, since I dislike the idea of my physical characteristics giving away my inner alignment and wearing those head coverings and respirators all the time has to be uncomfortable. Plus, think of the helmet hair.

warpenguin555Jan 6, 20174 votes

Nice try bro but it's easy to tell you just dont want your main getting nerfed after having a 90% banrate

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Nice try bro but it's easy to tell you just dont want your main getting nerfed after having a 90% banrate

Ban rate is not win rate simpleton. They don't nerf champions for simply being banned.

MatezoideJan 6, 20172 votes

More bans just means one-trick ponies get fucked even more, which I am perfectly fine with.

Lord DiscordJan 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Nero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KMK2dfT1,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-06T17:30:33.544+0000)

I don't think it's fair that you have just allowed for some people's mains and champions to be perma banned. Your excuse of "diversity" Is a complete lie. Now it will be even less diverse. People won't be banning for "diversity", they will be banning based on champions they hate and have no skill to play against. I don't know how far you plan on allowing 10 bans, but if you think people outside of pro players will deal with it well you're kidding yourself.

If you plan on making so many bans allowable, you have to create ban immunity for people not to feel stripped of their champions.

so your wanting yasuo to be unable to be banned?

BultzJan 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=2 Member Berries,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KMK2dfT1,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-01-06T19:19:57.509+0000)

so your wanting yasuo to be unable to be banned?

no, just like you get re-rolls in arma, if they have ten bans i should get unbann token where you earn them through play and can unban a champion

Leblancs BoobJan 7, 20171 votes

If you're worried about your champ being permabanned then there is something inherently wrong with that champion that exists outside of simple game balance. Maybe if champs like Yasuo will reach near 100% banrate, Riot may finally get around to reworking them.

BultzJan 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you're worried about your champ being permabanned then there is something inherently wrong with that champion that exists outside of simple game balance. Maybe if champs like Yasuo will reach near 100% banrate, Riot may finally get around to reworking them.

And what would be wrong with him? please tell me.

Leblancs BoobJan 7, 20171 votes

Literally everything. Yasuo's kit is designed around completely denying his opponent's agency. Unless you're lucky enough to counterpick Yasuo with a hard counter, proper use of his kit gives him complete control over the lane to the point where you can't do anything against him but wait for him to mess up. That's exactly the problem with Yasuo. 'Wait for him to mess up' is not counterplay.