AP item changes should have addressed Viktor's Hex Core

kcStranger··3 votes·1,836 views

Viktor has had very high damage for a long time, but the recent AP item changes have exacerbated the problem. This is because the AP granted by Luden's/Zhonya's was dropped to 100, with the ratio on Deathcap increased to 35% to compensate. Viktor's Perfect Hex Core was already the single largest source of AP in the game (+168 for a level-18 Viktor) outside of 19-stack Mejai's, and with the bonus from Deathcap it grants a whopping 226.8 AP (241.8 if you build Seraph's Embrace, since Perfect Hex Core also gives 500 mana). It's also not overwhelmingly expensive at 3000 gold for all upgrades (vs. 3500 for Deathcap). Here are some example full-AP builds (5 items, not considering runes/masteries) to provide an example of how Viktor stacks up against other champions:

  1. A typical Viktor build with Perfect Hex Core, Deathcap, Void Staff, Zhonya's and Luden's gives 767 AP.
  2. A comparable non-Viktor build with Deathcap, Void Staff, Zhonya's, Luden's, and Rylai's gives 675 AP.
  3. A max-AP Viktor build with Perfect Hex Core, Deathcap, Seraph's Embrace, Rod of Ages, and Zhonya's gives 860 AP.
  4. A comparable non-Viktor build with Deathcap, Seraph's Embrace, Rod of Ages, Zhonya's, and Luden's gives 748 AP.

Now, there are certainly some counter-arguments to the idea that Viktor needs nerfed:

  1. Hypothetically, his AP ratios have been balanced around Perfect Hex Core as a high-AP item.
  2. Perfect Hex Core takes a while to scale up.
  3. Viktor has other weaknesses, most notably his low mobility.

I'm still inclined to think that Viktor's damage was already on the high side before (just try using Death Ray on a creep wave), and that the AP item changes have made his advantage even more pronounced. Personally, I think some stats need to be shaved from Hex Core to make it a little less overwhelming. Maybe something like -10 AP from all upgrades and/or -1 AP/level overall? (I'm no balance expert, but I think that minimally, it should be dropped by ~10 AP to balance the increased bonus from Deathcap.)

16 Comments

ValyrianBlade2 votes

I agree, Viktor was a strong champion pre these changes, seeing competitive play despite his lack of mobility. His damage output, especially AOE for teamfights, was already absurdly high. Perfect Hex Core gets an extra 5% from Deathcap now - that was probably overlooked. Good catch!

Even if they only lower it by 5% to make up for deathcap, I'd be all good.

kcStranger1 votes

Yeah, I agree. I went ahead and edited the OP to state that my minimal nerf would be to subtract about 10 AP to offset the increased bonus from Deathcap.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

As a Viktor main, it's not a problem. He is a late game champion, like Cass, he does get huge dmg late game. Like cass though, he is short range, most of his abilities cast range is 550. While his hex core does give huge ap boost, remember it doesn't do anything like other ap items. Seraph gives mana, a huge shield, regen, and ap. death cap gives like 300+ ap end game. The hex core is only bought because it evolves your abilities not that it's an awesome item in terms of stats.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KIPkfRN0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-18T16:39:35.252+0000)

As a Viktor main, it's not a problem. He is a late game champion, like Cass, he does get huge dmg late game. Like cass though, he is short range, most of his abilities cast range is 550. While his hex core does give huge ap boost, remember it doesn't do anything like other ap items. Seraph gives mana, a huge shield, regen, and ap. death cap gives like 300+ ap end game. The hex core is only bought because it evolves your abilities not that it's an awesome item in terms of stats.

It is not bought, you have it since the beginning of the game, you can't sell it back, and that's one of the reasons why you have no choice other than to upgrade it.

That's one of the reasons why old Viktor was not popular, you could only upgrade one of his abilities.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

{quoted}

It is not bought, you have it since the beginning of the game, you can't sell it back, and that's one of the reasons why you have no choice other than to upgrade it.

That's one of the reasons why old Viktor was not popular, you could only upgrade one of his abilities.

I'm saying that's without th upgrades the item itself is crap.

Holîday3 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KIPkfRN0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-18T16:39:35.252+0000)

As a Viktor main, it's not a problem. He is a late game champion,

He is good at all phases of the game, don't kid yourself.

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

{quoted}

He is good at all phases of the game, don't kid yourself.

No he is not. His lvl 1-5 is pretty bad against most champs. He also gets beat my most long range champs like Xerath, sundry, cass or even Ori.

Holîday2 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KIPkfRN0,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2015-07-18T17:18:17.884+0000)

No he is not. His lvl 1-5 is pretty bad against most champs. He also gets beat my most long range champs like Xerath, sundry, cass or even Ori.

Actually he does great against almost everyone except for long range mages. His lvl 1 trades are extremely good because Q is a nuke you can't miss and the shield makes it so you get the better of the trade. His level 2 and onwards aren't any worse, and once you upgrade core first back.. forget about it. Death ray eats anyone alive. Viktor is known for being a huge bully in lane (with good reason), idk how you don't know this as a viktor main.

xJLx MCHammer2 votes

{quoted}

Actually he does great against almost everyone except for long range mages. His lvl 1 trades are extremely good because Q is a nuke you can't miss and the shield makes it so you get the better of the trade. His level 2 and onwards aren't any worse, and once you upgrade core first back.. forget about it. Death ray eats anyone alive. Viktor is known for being a huge bully in lane (with good reason), idk how you don't know this as a viktor main.

His lvl 1 is only good against melee champs, otherwise using q at lvl 1 will get you to take too much minion aggro. His laser is 600 range, most mid laners have longer range than that, if you can't see it coming, you can't dodge Ahri either.

TheMoonMan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KIPkfRN0,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2015-07-18T17:18:17.884+0000)

No he is not. His lvl 1-5 is pretty bad against most champs. He also gets beat my most long range champs like Xerath, sundry, cass or even Ori.

cass max range is 850 with q/w, and 700 with E, where viktors main pokes max range is 1040 with Q range being 700. not counting oris shield, her max range is 825 on q. I don't know who sundry is but, xerath is the only person with conistantly longer range spells than xerath that you listed (1100, 1100, 1050) and he is also known to be a huge lane bully as well. Although non upgraded deathray doesnt get that sweet 140% ap scaling, its still nothing to laugh at with 70% ap scaling and high base damages. and post upgrade it just makes him a nightmare to face.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Michael Holmes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KIPkfRN0,comment-id=0001000100000001,timestamp=2015-07-18T18:08:43.453+0000)

cass max range is 850 with q/w, and 700 with E, where viktors main pokes max range is 1040 with Q range being 700. not counting oris shield, her max range is 825 on q. I don't know who sundry is but, xerath is the only person with conistantly longer range spells than xerath that you listed (1100, 1100, 1050) and he is also known to be a huge lane bully as well. Although non upgraded deathray doesnt get that sweet 140% ap scaling, its still nothing to laugh at with 70% ap scaling and high base damages. and post upgrade it just makes him a nightmare to face. Cass 750 range is low considering the cast time of E Viktor q is 550 and then His aa range which is 525 His e max range is 1000 but that's a bit weird to use as his highlight considering it moves quite slowly and you can see it coming from 550 range. Like I said, if you are complaining about this, Ahri is 10x worse because it's faster and she can change the angle of it. Also he doesn't have 140% scaling, it's .75+(.4(.75)) which is somewhere around 1.05 scaling.

M Schumacher1 votes

Viktor is a broken champion in need of massive nerfs

stealthfox941 votes

Viktor has high damage output yest, but his range is meh for a mage he has no mobility and a lot of bad matchups. He's fine.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Hm... so nobody got nerfed because of AP itemization changes, but we should nerf Viktor?

Ayy, hold my downvote. I'll be back in a moment.

7ha7guy7771 votes

His hexcore isn't an item. It's his passive that just happens to take up an item slot and cost 3000 gold to fully upgrade. If it needs to be toned down i'm sure it will. Deathcap on its own gives 162 ap from just its ap and the 35% amp so if you have any ap from runes and masteries deathcap actually gives more ap than the hexcore.

TheMoonMan1 votes

most comparable mid laners to viktor have similar ranges. He excels vs short-medium ranged laners due to the fact it makes hitting E a hell of a lot easier. Im not going to lie and say viktor is a great level 1 duelist, but post upgraded deathray he certainly is no push over

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