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What Sion wants

Nebuul··23 votes·2,481 views

Sion

Sion is in a bit of a bad spot right now, but there are some reasonable changes that could be made to his kit to put him back on track. Please note that not all of these changes should be made together. Some combination of them, though, would help him out tremendously.

PASSIVE There are a number of valid suggestions about changes to his passive floating around out there. These seem to be the most popular:

  1. Change the attack speed buff to be a bonus instead of a set attack speed so that Sion isn't penalized if he has purchased attack speed items like trinity force.
  2. Give Death Surge a similar effect to quicksilver sash so that Sion can overcome initial cc used on him.
  3. If Sion kills a champion, have him reset his life loss and refill his life bar to full.
  4. If Sion kills a champion, have him come back to life a la guardian angel

DECIMATING SMASH A common wish is for the damage reductions on minions and/or monsters to be reduced somewhat, but otherwise most Sion mains agree that this skill is in a pretty good place.

SOUL FURNACE This skill was nerfed during cinderhulk's heyday, and most mains agree that changes here are probably the most important to returning Sion to viability.

  1. Completely revert the nerfs to W (10% max health ratio at all ranks, 2 second detonation trigger)
  2. Scale the detonation trigger time with level from the current 3s at level 1 to 2s at level 5
  3. Have a reduced strength detonation if the shield is popped from damage, such as a 50% damage explosion
  4. Increase the AP ratios so Sion can be a wizard again.

ROAR OF THE SLAYER Most Sion mains agree that the nerfs to this skill were justified. The 35 mana 315 damage long-range poke was stupidly overpowered. That said, there are some changes that have been suggested. I personally feel the skill is in a good place right now, but here you go:

  1. Increase the armor shred on the primary target at higher levels (e.g. 20/25/30/35/40%)
  2. Increase the AP ratio so Sion can be a wizard again.

UNSTOPPABLE ONSLAUGHT His ultimate has had a number of creative suggestions made. Some may have even been tried by Riot already:

  1. Have Sion keep running if his ult kills a champion
  2. Make it destroy or ignore player-generated terrain, especially once it is at full speed
  3. Extend Sion's cc immunity for half-a-second after the ult collides with a champion
  4. Give the frontal cone of the ultimate some kind of Braum shield effect to counter projectiles/aoe zones as though sion destroyed the effect
  5. Increase the maximum speed based on the player's bonus speed so that it is harder to avoid
  6. Don't increase the max speed but increase the turning speed based on player bonus speed so that it is easier to aim

Thank you for talking the time to read this. Hopefully some good can come of it.

55 Comments

Jbels5 votes

It's really sad that Gnar has a monopoly on the bruiser role right now. You could literally answer every argument about why you would want to take Sion, Renekton, and all the others with "But Gnar"

Gigahappytown1 votes

{quoted}

It's really sad that Gnar has a monopoly on the bruiser role right now. You could literally answer every argument about why you would want to take Sion, Renekton, and all the others with "But Gnar"

execpt gnar is incapable of going to toe to toe with 90% of top laners?

the only reason hes good is becuase his laning phase while garbage is extremely safe and he scales into a extremely good tank with megar gnar during late game and megar gnar fits into almost every team comp

kJs1 votes

Gnar doesn't need to get close to toe to toe against 90% of top laners when he can easily kite them so they will never get into melee range, it takes some skill but it's not that hard to kite with him (part of his design actually).

If they do manage to get close to him Gnar should already be close to Mega Gnar which is probably the tankiest and most disruptive champion (form) at early levels save for Sion and Maokai.

Not saying Gnar is OP though.

IcyPepper5 votes

what he really, really wants

Kitten of Evil2 votes

A Ziggs Ziggs ah?

Hasztalan22 votes

No. Sion rework is garbage. AS long as the shield is weak he remains weak but if u buff his W hes gonna be wtfop once more. Needs another and now proper rework.

Jbels10 votes

{quoted}

No. Sion rework is garbage. AS long as the shield is weak he remains weak but if u buff his W hes gonna be wtfop once more. Needs another and now proper rework.

The rework isn't garbage. This rework is the best possible thing that could have happened to Sion. The only problem is that he's not only overnerfed right now, but Gnar does his job better

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

The rework isn't garbage. This rework is the best possible thing that could have happened to Sion. The only problem is that he's not only overnerfed right now, but Gnar does his job better

This is wrong on so many levels. They REMOVED Sion from the game and replaced him with a different champion. Heck, they even gave him his own login screen, just like they would a new champion. The voiceover is completely different, the visuals are completely different, his kit is completely different, and even the lore was changed a lot, and unlike Karma, they didn't even give him a traditional skin. It's pretty hard for me to not tear up whenever I'm reminded of Old Sion. The New Sion is a great champion, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't a good rework. If you have to completely change everything about a champion for a rework, it's NOT a good rework.

kJs3 votes

Probably because old Sion had zero personality and was basically a mockery of Arnie's time in the movies.

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

Probably because old Sion had zero personality and was basically a mockery of Arnie's time in the movies.

Yes. His voiceover definitely wasn't fitting, and his model was very out of date. But why completely change his kit? What they should have done is changed his Q and W and made them more AD focused abilities. A bad voiceover is no reason to completely alter everything about a character.

kJs1 votes

I saw it as Riot taking the Noxian battering ram idea and spreading it all over his kit and theme.

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

The rework isn't garbage. This rework is the best possible thing that could have happened to Sion. The only problem is that he's not only overnerfed right now, but Gnar does his job better

One more thing. Almost everyone who mained Sion moved on from him when they reworked him.

Gaddafi2 votes

I can tell you what old Sion main want :(

Trebbi2 votes

Honestly if they just fix his W so he can actually use it in the jungle. It would be nice. Other than that he is really not that bad compared to other Lane tanks.

ShatoSummoner1 votes

You can use it for clear extremely well thanks to the %hp damage, but as a shield it won't block anything or you hurt your clear too much.

Trebbi1 votes

{quoted}

You can use it for clear extremely well thanks to the %hp damage, but as a shield it won't block anything or you hurt your clear too much.

Its the second part of your sentence I refer to. I mean I would wanna to at least shield something and then pop it, tough he doesnt go to low in the jungle, but its kinda annoying.

ShatoSummoner1 votes

Yeah. I just put an extra point in it at level 4, and I can usually activate it while clearing the camp instead of before.

Squarefighter2 votes

Sion main here, mostly playing him top. His shield is a bit awkward in the jungle but is still very useable, activate it right before letting go of your Q and then E the big creep into the wall to stun them. If you do this correctly you should have just enough time to detonate it right as the creep is about to aa you.

Trebbi1 votes

{quoted}

Sion main here, mostly playing him top. His shield is a bit awkward in the jungle but is still very useable, activate it right before letting go of your Q and then E the big creep into the wall to stun them. If you do this correctly you should have just enough time to detonate it right as the creep is about to aa you.

Yeah, thats the only way to make the most out of his shield currently in the jungle.

kJs1 votes

You can only take one round of hits from a camp before your rank 1 W dissipates. It's not really that bad for jungle Sion just takes a bit of prep time. You can also use W during Q charge up so you do get your W dmg.

Ser Garland2 votes

Just a reminder that Zyra's kit and passive are a million times worse than Sion's.

You're currently crying why a great champion can't be Pick or Bann.

kJs1 votes

Let's ignore one problem because another is clearly worse.

Nah man.

Stephenizgod2 votes

Meddler (NA) - about 2 hours ago We've got some stuff in there that should be pretty appealing on champions looking for defensive options as well. An example of an end tier mastery from the more defensively focused tree:

"Strength of Ages

Killing a Siege Minion or large monsters increases maximum health by 20 and 8 respectively, up to 250 health. After reaching 250 bonus health, heal for 100 health when a nearby siege minion dies."

This should really help him out once Preseason rolls around :) he needs slight buffs but he is not as useless as people make him out to be.

CryingChicken2 votes

What Sion really needs is a linebacker skin

SouL1ess1 votes

Change the attack speed buff to be a bonus instead of a set attack speed so that Sion isn't penalized if he has purchased attack speed items like trinity force.

Wait.

Doesn't the current passive change the BAT to be lower, therefore actually giving more synergy with AS items than an AS bonus will give?

At least I thought it worked that way.

Additionally, how about Death Surge doesn't get decayed MS over time, gives Sion tenacity while its active, but does not cleanse CC.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Wait.

Doesn't the current passive change the BAT to be lower, therefore actually giving more synergy with AS items than an AS bonus will give?

At least I thought it worked that way.

Additionally, how about Death Surge doesn't get decayed MS over time, gives Sion tenacity while its active, but does not cleanse CC.

there are so many ways to buff his passive

Nebuul1 votes

No, right now it sets his attack speed to a certain value, and that value cannot be raised or lowered by any means.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

bump

A Small Dog1 votes

I think a lot of these would be good for Sion I do miss seeing the big guy stomp around top lane and the jungle. The only part I would be against (if Riot took this list into consideration) is the 4th suggestion on his passive, as that would make laning against and/or ganking him a possible nightmare. But the third suggestion for his passive I think is pretty neat, but after his health bar is re-filled from killing a champion it decays at a much faster rate so that way he doesn't completely walk through a whole team after a close fight.

Fadedpf1 votes

And revert the stupid armor nerfs because him and other tanks clearly werent dominating after all the heavy nerfs and meta shift.

LynXerf1 votes

Passive: When Sion kills and enemy champion, he recovers 30% of his missing health and his lust for killing grants him death surge again. Death Surge: Sion gains 60% bonus movement speed that decays over 2 seconds.

Roar of the Slayer: Sion bellows in the target direction, dealing magic damage to the first enemy he hits, Slow icon slowing them and reducing their armor by 30% for 2.5 seconds.

Those two changes alone would prove a decent buff to Sion. Gnar needs a little nerf to his all-in ult AOE lockdown CC.

Nublord1 votes

{quoted}

UNSTOPPABLE ONSLAUGHT His ultimate has had a number of creative suggestions made. Some may have even been tried by Riot already:

  1. Have Sion keep running if his ult kills a champion

It was a thing on PBE 7 months ago. Dunno why it didn't make to live.

kJs1 votes

It didn't happen because, (I think Scruffy) Riot said that it's not healthy due to allowing Sion to basically double ult. It would have made him OP apparently. I think if they would have made it so that the ult damage is reduced by 10% after a minion/champion/jungle creep w/e is hit that would fix it.

Nebuul1 votes

I wonder if they tested it before or after they discovered that Sion was using his target's bonus AD instead of his own when he ulted. I could see Sion insta-gibbing ad carries and running on through would be a problem.

MechaBeast1 votes

I really want that riot increase the scale on AP on his E and W.

GelsominoKiller1 votes

As a Sion player the only thing i'd like to see is the revert on the 3s detonation time.

Some changes to make his passive fulfill his fantasy are welcome, but not really needed.

Squarefighter3 votes

Also an avid Sion player here, personally I think the qss effect on death surge would be awesome

kJs1 votes

I'd personally want that projectile block to happen as well as increased turn rate.

Squarefighter1 votes

Turn rate would be nice but not necessary. Continuing if he tramples a target would be awesome and funny and wouldn't change him balance wise too much. Honestly I don't want him buffed too much, I want him to stay secret OP not publicly OP and then get nerfed because of it.

SIayton1 votes

IMO the shield nerfs were what hurt him the most. Because the shield is weaker now and takes longer to detonate, he rarely gets to use it offensively in lane, as it's too easily popped. IMO, the shield should not have a detonation delay at all and should just do more damage the larger the shield is. That way you can use it offensively or defensively, but it doesn't double dip into both as it did before, where you'd let it almost break and then detonate it, getting the full benefits of both aspects of the ability.

Also his HP scaling isn't that impressive. For having an infinite HP mechanic, he doesn't feel particularly more tanky than other tank champions. Late game, Sion can't kill people anymore, so he's relegated to just CC and peel. It would be nice to see his scaling brought up a little bit, as he's reaaaaaaaaaaaally prone to falling off.

just a memory1 votes

Bump for Justice

DezeMuffins1 votes

Why do people want to buff his passive so much?

charcharmunro2 votes

Because it achieves nothing. In lane, most people you're facing will have enough CC/mobility and have the sense to just walk from you. In teamfights, you can just get hit by any CC at all and suddenly you can't do anything with it.

Doctor Dyment1 votes

All I want back is the shield. Everything (at least to me) is in a perfectly okay place. Hard to land abilities, but gratifying when doing so. I don't feel that way about the shield though.

DrBaryon1 votes

I really like option 2 on the passive. Option 1 I think is problematic because since his AD scaling is meh and armor pen doesn't affect W and E, attack speed becomes the best offensive stat and every Sion builds botrk/trinity and swings their 500 lb ax like a paper fan while they're alive. 3 and 4 are too much.

On his basic skills, something that buffs the lvl 1 skills, which are all pretty terrible right now. Before W was a one point wonder, now you effectively choose one skill to be terrible almost all game. A flat 50% slow on e and maybe some sort of (low) ratio with Sion's health would make it a good one point skill.

If Sion's ult applied the stun in the same AOE as the dmg, it would be much more effective for people who are smart and cancel their ult if they slightly miss. Then it becomes Malphite tier engage, but with higher dmg, balanced by the telegraphing.

Sageace1 votes

From personal experience, I think Sion could use a very small amount of buffs. He's quite powerful, he just needs a little less restrictions to implement that.

I think the only change he needs the most is his passive. He definitely needs something to help get his job out their as the undying juggernaut. I can see your suggestions #1 and a partial amount of #2 and #3 being implemented. While not a QSS, I can see him getting more mobility duration and some Tenacity.

His Q is definitely in a good spot.

His W, the only nerf I think needs to be reverted is his detonation time. 2 seconds is more reasonable than 3, but if needed, we can meet in the middle for 2.5 seconds.

His E is an I good spot I believe.

His R can use a bit more coding for "collision" because honestly, it's hard to control when turning (which is intentional). I would prefer that even though your going down river, if you accidentally hit the wall that is almost parallel to the direction that you are running, you should keep going. The only thing that should stop you is if the wall is more "perpindicular" to you than "parallel". A bit more coding with this could definitely be needed. (A question too, can he not flash while his ult is active? Imagine some pro plays just by flashing over a wall while his ult is active?)

And please stop asking for AP Sion.

What I am curious about seeing is what if Sion, upon activating his passive, maintains his his W and E from normal Sion, but his new Q is the Death Surge (and maybe his R can be up as well for lols). Or maybe upon dying, Sion activates his Roar of the Slayer, but as an AOE and it applies the slow around him, but for a short duration until he starts moving again, and then he can do what he normally does like on Live.

So again, Personally, I think Sion is currently strong, and I think Riot might be restricting his damage output just a tad too much. But I am curious on what others think.

spavined1 votes

Honestly as someone who is very good at sion the most viable buff for him would prob be buffing his e's armor shred out of all the abilities that one is by far the most useless, being mostly used for the slow.

Puynsi1 votes

But Sion is strong as hell, hes like braum but with shitty cc

Olath Quortek1 votes

I disagree. Sion is not in a bad spot. Sion is actually very good at what he does. He is arguably the best aoe zone control tank in the game and is greatly rewarded for doing his job.

PASSIVE

  1. Sion should not scale well off attack speed; It just doesn't really make sense for his gameplay or thematic.
  2. Sion should not gain a cleanse effect because it would actually discourage enemies from using their cc on him; If they are wasting cc on an already dead champion you're already being rewarded.
  3. Sion should not be able to extend his passive and more than he already can simply because his passive does what it is supposed to do already.
  4. Sion should not be able to turn his death passive into a revive passive; These are two different kind of passives and allow for two different power budgets... Making a revive passive conditional on kills during a death passive would be awkward and unhealthy not to mention they would have to put a cooldown on it.

IMO the reason people think Sion's passive needs a buff is because they want his passive to be something that it is not; His passive is not about getting kills (although that's nice) and it's not about being a long lasting/damage heavy threat (although that's nice). It is simply a tool to give him zone control after death and it does that very effectively. I feel it's also worth pointing out that it is heavily reliant (much like the rest of his kit) on how both your team and the enemy team react to it. This is intended and healthy for him, promoting teamwork and strategic decision making.

DECIMATING SMASH

I agree that this skill is in a good spot and honestly his clear is just fine both in lane and in the jungle.

SOUL FURNACE

  1. I actually think the nerfs to this ability were completely warranted and healthy; They promote putting early points into W and, honestly, a 2 second delay is just too easy to pull off.
  2. Now this change I actually kind of like... However, I do not think the inconsistency of it would be healthy. When Sion activates his shield the enemy team knows they have 3 seconds to destroy it in the same way they know they have 1 second to leave Sion's Q before they're going to get knocked up and 2 seconds before it's fully charged. This change would to some degree make this into a guessing game; Exactly how many points does that Sion have into his W? Not necessarily a bad thing but potentially unhealthy.
  3. Sion's abilities are extremely rewarding when landed correctly but very ineffective when correctly countered, as they should be.
  4. Ehh... I could take or leave AP Sion but I don't really see any reason for him to be a wizard... Full Magic Pen Sion is viable without buffs to his ratios anyways. XD

IMO Sion's W is too easy to detonate with a 2 second delay and Sion's abilities are supposed to be difficult to use to their full effectiveness. The trick to using his W is timing it with the rest of his abilities; Essentially you can use each of his other abilities to buy yourself time and all but guarantee getting the detonation off.

ROAR OF THE SLAYER

  1. Armor reduction is tricky; Extremely powerful in some situations and can be seen as hidden power. I don't think this would be a bad thing for him by any means but I simply don't think he needs it.
  2. Ehh... I could take or leave AP Sion but I don't really see any reason for him to be a wizard... Full Magic Pen Sion is viable without buffs to his ratios anyways. XD (Literally copy pasted this)

IMO Sion's E is arguably his easiest to land and most reliable ability. Combo that with the fact that it enables him to combo the rest of his abilities easier puts this ability in a pretty decent spot. I don't think it needs buffs.

UNSTOPPABLE ONSLAUGHT

  1. I love this idea. It's awesome. It's brutal. Technically Sion has the ability to apply his ult's damage to the entire enemy team already but that requires the enemy team to be grouped very tightly. I believe Riot has already decided this would be too much of a buff simply because you essentially double your damage by running over an enemy and then into another enemy. I personally agree. This would be too much of a buff. Gotta think of all those support mains giving their lives for their carries... wouldn't want their body blocking to go to waste simply because they're already low...
  2. Sure it sucks when you get stopped by terrain you weren't expecting to be there as ulting Sion but this is a prime example of a healthy way to add counterplay. It's a cool idea and I like the full speed part of it but I don't think he needs it.
  3. I actually don't much see the point of this. They were either dumb enough to waste their disables on you while you were ulting or they saved them and can interrupt you Q channel before you get a knockup anyways even with this buff.
  4. This buff seems situational and awkward to me. Destroying projectiles isn't really his job and this feels like a random bonus effect tacked on just for the hell of it...
  5. I don't think this ability needs to be harder to avoid. It doesn't need to be easier to land. It is healthy as far as usability and counterplay goes.
  6. I don't think this ability needs to be harder to avoid. It doesn't need to be easier to land. It is healthy as far as usability and counterplay goes.

IMO this should have been Malphite's original ultimate but that's beside the point... XD Sion's ult is a healthy mix of difficult and rewarding with plenty of enemy counterplay and teammate wombo.

TL;DR I don't think Sion needs buffs. He is strong. He is healthy. He excels at zone control and is rewarded for doing his job well. He has a healthy amount of counterplay and teammate wombo. Full magic pen Sion is viable. Honestly I think he is simply a hard champion to play well because of his delayed damage kit, lack of mobility and real weaknesses. I also think he is extremely fun to play because of his amazing strengths and his ability to out-counter his opponents and work to devastating effectiveness especially with good teamwork.

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