Also the boards: "Any time anything goes anywhere outside of where it's always gone for the past half-decade, the balance team needs to be skewered in the kidney on Instagram Live for it."
SwiftKitten8837 votesthere is a major difference between a person finding a new way to play a champ that is fun, balanced, and interactive. and riot drastically overbuffing a champ and forcing them into a lane no one can deal with.
for example. 
top isn't bad because it "victor top" its BAD because no one has any way to deal with it...
Eedat7 votesonly champs that are completely immobile struggle against Viktor top. Heaven forbid peope dont want to be stat checked into the dirt by 
every game because we didn't pick a meta top laner. The meta where your viability as a top laner is dictated by your ability to lane against Darius and Renekton is long gone.
SwiftKitten887 votesonly champs that are completely immobile struggle against Viktor top. Heaven forbid peope dont want to be stat checked into the dirt by
that's not true at all. victor top because of his constant shielding and movement speed bonus is actually very hard to gank effectively. i dont know how it affects different top laners, but if it effect junglers as well i think its pretty safe to assume even mobile top lanes have issues with him
Eedat4 votesViktor top niche is more or less to bully immobile top laners. Doesn't change the fact that if you actually get on to him he's dead af. Go ahead and try picking Viktor into an 
or 
or anything AP and see how hard you get bodied
Wicked FlamezZ3 votesAt the same time looking at statistics of even nerfed viktor he still wins match-ups against champions who can haul ass too. Yasuo, Gnar, Tryndamere, and fiora can move pretty well but still statistically lose against this weaker version of viktor this patch.
Picking the most anti-ranged top laners doesn't mean that he only beats immobile champions, it just means you picked anti-ranged top laners.
Also doesn't excuse the fact that this is LoL and not Overwatch and justifying balance shouldn't be "Oh just pick this champion to win and if you don't you lose". If I could switch to irelia after they pick viktor, would be done.
Eedat4 votesNo they don't. Gnar has a 47% overall WR but 50% against Viktor. Top Yasuo has a 47.8% overall winrate but has a 51.3% winrate against Viktor. Fiora is immobile against anyone she cant get on with her short dash and Viktor out ranges that by a mile. Tryd is really the only example that you mentioned that fits your description
IEatDolphins2 votesIf the jg has no cc or gapclosers it can be quite hard to gank viktor. But most traditional jg's have those.
SwiftKitten882 votesIf the jg has no cc or gapclosers it can be quite hard to gank viktor. But most traditional jg's have those.
its not just that.. the movement speed makes it hard for champs like 
and even champs like 
not to mention most other junglers like with speed boost themselves also have a harder time reaching him allowing him to push much further up with safety, and the shield on the same skil makes him take a lot less damage as well becuase of the low cooldown high speed boost anf decently sized shield.
im not saying they're arn't harder champs to gank top, there are a few, but viktor is pretty darn safe if he maxes Q first.
saltran4 votesIs Aatrox a completely immobile champ?
Because Viktor top counters him.
MorganFreemanBot5 votesIs Aatrox a completely immobile champ?
Because Viktor top counters him.
Aatrox is pretty damn low on the mobility scale.
A 1 second 20% MS boost tied to his ulti. A short range (and I mean SHORT; it's about half the length of Lucian's dash) dash with a massive recharge time.
He's more mobile than Darius Illaoi, but he's a juggernaut and slower than 90%+ of the roster.
PB4UAME3 votesHe's got two charges on said dash, each of which have 300 range (for comparison Riven's Q's are 260, and her E is 325) and his ult which you might want to re-read is actually "120 / 180 / 240 flat movement speed, that refreshes when out of combat with Champions and Turrets," for up to 12 seconds worth of 240 flat movement speed on rank 3. . . making it one of the strongest movement steroids in the entire game. He's the most mobile juggernaut by far.
TMek76 votesdashes that he might need to even land his Qs, (compared to Riven, 2 Aatrox dashes vs 3 Riven Qs and an E isn't the same level of mobility) and movespeed OoC isn't really anything as far as lane trading is concerned, and popping ult specifically for the OoC MS and not the AD/revive is a bit misguided So Aatrox is still fairly immobile, where its important anyway
LordGeovanni2 votesplease rivens dashes happen while she is walking so her dashes happen to be 260 + her ms while aatrox gets locked into the dash animation with no way to cancel it.
LordGeovanni2 votesIllaoi can w up a lane of oncomming minions to chase far better than aatrox can as far as running away she is less mobile in that respect
chipndip151 votesNerfing Vik top because his shield's super strong and spammy? Fine.
"Get mages out of bot lane."
"Get fighters out of mid lane."
"Get ranged out of top lane."
All the fucking time? I stand by this thread. You guys don't want strategic diversity. You just like the idea of it.
saltran4 votesNot me!
I dislike the idea of diversity and also dislike when it's meta.
Eleshakai44 votesHere's the problem, you're acting like the forums are a single person who just constantly contradicts themselves. The reality is that the forums are comprised of many people... some of whom disagree with the things the others say.
The people who constantly talk about wanting strategic diversity ARE DIFFERENT POSTERS than the people saying the things you quote here. Both groups are large enough, vocal enough, and well represented enough on the forums... that it feels like what you describe in the OP.
(That being said, I do feel like Viktor top might be an exception where even a lot of the people who like strategic diversity don't like it since it's too safe, too oppressive, and too hard to counter effectively...)
Spank the Fox5 votesI’m tired of bystanders hiding behind the “oh, it’s not literally everyone though!” when it’s quite apparent there’s a huge hive mentality that needs to be called out on.
Especially seeing as a lot of people upvote the same ideas over and over again. (Example: anyone saying ADCs don’t feel satisfying is downvoted into oblivion)
Chipndip1 isn’t calling you out personally saying you hate meta changes. (S)he is calling out the community collectively throwing up a fuss when the meta changes because it doesn’t change in the way one hoped it would.
Velzard of Koz5 votesYes, you feel that way these are the same people. Feelings are always best proof. You have no way of showing someone who upvotes threads preaching diversity also upvotes those against hese ideas. It's just "quite apparent" like it's "quite apparent" Earth is flat and "you guys" all are sheepz.
Before Conqueror, these Boards were overloaded with bruisers and divers players complaining about lack of tools to win lane against tanks. Now every now and then people complain about tanks being irrelevant due to Conqueror. If we are supposed to have Chipndip's mentality then Boards have split personality.
It's not the same people upvoting it. Chipndip feels that way because it allows him to feel like going against stream every time. Most of Chipndip's posts are him using "you guys" 1000 times and pretending like Boards is single person who is always of opposing opinion and always wrong.
I’m tired of bystanders hiding behind the “oh, it’s not literally everyone though!” when it’s quite apparent there’s a huge hive mentality that needs to be called out on.
I'm tired of people "calling out this" pretending they are not part of the Boards and always beyond the matter. As of writing this post, he has 38 upvotes. That's quite big group that agrees with him. And it's not the first post with the same topic that got highly upvoted. "BoArdS HavE HIve MentAliTY" my ass.
This whole theme of Boards having hive mind is for people to victimze themself and feel like above others. Whatever makes you feel better. Others actually made valid points about why Vic Top isn't healthy. But screw their points because "I BEt YOu UPvoteD THat One THRead".
Spank the Fox2 votesI’m not acting as above it all, it’s hilarious that’s the route you take.
I’m tired of any progress at calling out this cesspool a circlejerk called Bords is brought back to the circular shitty argument “it’s not everyone brooo”
It’s not helpful nor are they mutually exclusive. The community is being called out as a collective, not the individual, but the only time the individual actually wants to say something is exactly in the shitty, non-contructive manor Eleshaki has posted.
Eleshakai4 voteswhat makes my post non-constructive precisely? Is it too logical for you? Too well-thought out? Not accusatory enough?
AirKingNeo4 votesconsidering the boards upvote and downvote people based on agreement or disagreement, to think that they technically aren't a hive mind is wrong.
If you claim there are "different kinds of people" on the boards who don't share similar opinions, shouldn't those who support strategic diversity downvote those against Viktor top and vice versa?
Eleshakai8 votesIt's an interesting psychological paradigm here, but the fear of being 'in the minority' leads to people trending towards staying completely out of discussions rather than stepping into them and being ganged up on by the people agreeing with it. As a result, once a thread starts to get popular, dissenting voices stay away OR start their own thread in the hopes they can get people who agree to 'hivemind' with them.
This leads to threads not often having a lot of dissenting discussion and a lot of hive-mind threads.
Lil Homie busta5 votesProblem isn't mages in bot lane, or fighters in mid lane, etc. The problem is that almost every champion who managed these "diversity" changes did that thanks to overtuned/abused elements in or outside their kit, because they're clear outliers, not because they fought their way there.
A evidence of this is that most of them started these diversity changes from day to night (Viktor top, Irelia Mid, Aatrox mid, Ziggs mid) or because some korean dude shown how to abuse certain builds, kits and strategy in order to break a lane.
3TWarrior2 votesnot really. Most champions achieve success in a role because people find something that they can use which either has not been thought of, or more likely, USES THE OPPONENT'S HABITS AGAINST THEM. problem is, in some cases, it is just wrong
take top lane, no champion there will complain about yasuo unless they're projectile based. At the same time, if yasuo goes mid, he makes the lives of mages hell
however, this is not the case with most other examples. Viktor is a strong pick but he suffers from all of the flaws of being a mage. If it were that easy to go top-lane, almost any mage could do it, as could any marksman, but it's never that simple
every role has its faults and every player has their preferences. Most people give in to the mob mentality and play what other people want them to play
Strawberrycocoa3 votes"Get mages out of bot lane."
This is the only "strategic diversity" complaint I really agree with. Most of those mages were tuned and balanced to be independent damage dealers, letting them run wild in bot lane and shove out utility supports (which is what a support SHOULD BE: a utility champion) was never something that should have been allowed.
3TWarrior3 voteswell, how do you get them out? do you nerf their base numbers, which makes them awful to play in other lanes?
do you do that but increase their scalings, which makes them basically DBZ characters that blow up any target they see if they can survive the laning phase?
do you make their stats abysmal?
how do you "force" a meta without removing the champion entirely from being a viable pick?
Strawberrycocoa2 votesWell, with a goal to keep them in damage dealer roles and shove them out of utilty roles, my initial thought on that is to remove the things that let them act as a sub-in for a real support. I'd hit their control capacities, roots stuns and slows, and diminish their ability to babysit an ADC.
Wicked FlamezZ5 votesMaybe not have the "creative" playstyles be broken? The bigger issues is that "creative" people don't want to do unique picks, they want to abuse champions riot overlooked in other lanes. There are several unique picks you can take in other roles that work out, however, people don't want that, they want to abuse unintended match ups and defend it with I** WAS JUST TRYING TO BE UNIQUE**. Bull shit. It just so happens the only time you want to be unique your unique thing has a 56%+ win rate and virtually 0 losing lane match ups? OKAY BUD.
chipndip14 votes...when has any of these types of picks been 56% general win rate picks?
Wicked FlamezZ6 votes....It's the point...
You never see anyone try and nut hug "creative" playstyles until they win. If these "creative" players really wanted to be "creative" then the only "creative" pick in their match history wouldn't be in the top 3 for the lane because its so "creative".
For top lane, people only wanna be creative when quinn, viktor, malzahar or karthus rise to the top 3.
For bot, people only wanna be creative when irelia, yasuo or morde rises to the top 3.
For jg, people only wanna be creative when twitch or talyah rise to the top 3.
People in general only want to be creative when that pick is exploitable in a way that will get them more wins. Trying to hide the viktkor exploit as a "creative" play style is just a scapegoat, no, people played it because it decimated any meta top laner and only had out of meta or underplayed losing match-ups NOT because it was creative or unique.
3TWarrior3 votesconsidering champions were only intended with "roles" in mind and not locations, is there any problem with someone using a champion in a role others do not deem it suitable for?
The problem is, riot has frequently taken initiative to weed out changes and sometimes it causes so much trouble that they are FORCED to stay in that lane because they've been nerfed enough to not qualify against their previous encounters
ranged top-laners will continue to be a thing, just like now people are discovering that tanks and fighters have an interesting matchup against mages and assassins because they can stat-check them easily
now that critical damage is not "as" excessive as it was, other picks are finding their way into the bottom lane
it does not help that there are no OFFICIAL RULES other than destroy the opposing nexus. In addition to this, discouraging any creativity among classes will cause the game to stagnate quickly from staleness. Why do you think people hated that marksmen were a dominant pick for YEARS ?
ModCaptainMårvelous6 votesAll the fucking time? I stand by this thread. You guys don't want strategic diversity. You just like the idea of it.
The one that irks me is the DOTA comparison.
"WELL WELL WELL RIOT. DOTA just had their international and lookie there! 99% of characters picked eh? Shame you can't balance THAT well, right? Talk about a dumpster fire of a company."
"BTW Garen has a 55% win rate this shit is UNACCEPTABLE I demand Garen get sweeping nerfs across the board."
Demanding dota level balance without dota level concessions. Yikers.
Sharpest glasses2 votesWould be great if riot start balancing their game for high elo (and making every champion competitive) on the long term.
Verxint2 votesI can't speak for the other two, but most top laners don't want range out of top lane. They just want the dynamic to not be so linear and binary.
deadlychuck2 votesHonestly, he's worked fine as top lane bruiser/mage since the rune rework, people just never thought to take him there and play him like GP
Eedat31 votes#Gameplay™
Lil Homie busta9 votesDon't generalize.
BlackOnyxAltear10 votesImplying the boards are a hive mind.
Marshbouy3 votesImplying that it isn't
Handy Sandy 10 votesyea but nobody likes their definition of "creative" and "innovative"
Anyone who asks for mages, fighters, adcs, etc to go into seperate lanes doesn't know what they're talking about.
If a champion can go outside their intended lane, it's usually because they can be used as a strong lane bully which nobody likes going against. There's already lane bullies for each role.
HÔPÊ6 votesThere should be rules. I hate diversity in this game.
"Get mages out of bot lane."
"Get fighters out of mid lane."
"Get ranged out of top lane."
I hope they get them out of there. Mid is for mages. Top for brusers. Bot for marksman and supports. Diversity has a cost, which is too expensive. It fucks up the game. I want rules. Plain and simple. The game should be harder tho. More combos.
CHODES AND LOADS7 votesThere should be rules. I hate diversity in this game.
"Get mages out of bot lane."
"Get fighters out of mid lane."
"Get ranged out of top lane."
I hope they get them out of there. Mid is for mages. Top for brusers. Bot for marksman and supports. Diversity has a cost, which is too expensive. It fucks up the game. I want rules. Plain and simple. The game should be harder tho. More combos.
youre one of those people that knows how things are but has literally no fucking clue why they are that way or how it happened. have you ever even stopped to think why the word meta is used? do you even know what that word means? meta happens over a process of people figuring out a solid basic fundamental strategy, its not the ten fucking commandments its just a solid basis for strategy with room for change and its existence opens up room you hard counters to it since everyone expects it.
deadlychuck4 votesWell if riot would get assassins out of mid lane, I'd take my mages back there.
Lovelle5 votesIf Riot wants people to play SR a certain way and with certain champions, they should at least give us a game mode or two where we can just play whoever/whatever we want. This game has just gotten way too serious and rigid now. I hate seeing underplayed/niche champs get gutted by the Riot balance team while champs like 
literally faceroll games with/without cooperation from their teammates, and when it comes for nerfs they get slaps on the wrists (followed by new skins). I just don't see the logic.
has never been capable of carrying games like these two do, even back in 2014 when his Pillar cd was like 6 seconds at max rank (with capped cdr). However, because he saw competitive play for like 4 months tops he gets destroyed by nerfs. That Q buff barely does anything, they should've just reverted the whole Q nerf, especially since his Pillar is near useless until ranks 4-5 now.
Wicked FlamezZ5 votesThey get slap on the wrists because they don't have high enough statistics to justify a nerf. Why would you hard nerf a champion with a 49% win rate? What should the win rate be? 36%? Hell in bronze she has a 46%, in Master she has a 45%.
People ignore the games where irelia/graves int because the games when they are fed are so overwhelming that your memory prioritized that because statistically they aren't performing well enough to be hard nerfed, it's perception > reality.
3TWarrior4 votesat the same time, win rates do not dictate how fun the game is. Yasuo could have a 40% winrate and be miserable for his players, but if he IS STILL miserable for his laning opponent to go against, they won't want to play against him
Lovelle4 votes[{quoted}](name=Wicked FlamezZ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K8ErEadf,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-11-08T22:09:45.473+0000)
They get slap on the wrists because they don't have high enough statistics to justify a nerf. Why would you hard nerf a champion with a 49% win rate? What should the win rate be? 36%? Hell in bronze she has a 46%, in Master she has a 45%.
People ignore the games where irelia/graves int because the games when they are fed are so overwhelming that your memory prioritized that because statistically they aren't performing well enough to be hard nerfed, it's perception > reality.
So then what about Trundle? He may have been picked in competitive to counter tanks, but outside of those scenarios he's always been average at best. Aside from that, his ability to carry games is quite low, he requires coordination to get the most out of his kit. Why is a champion like that completely gutted, while champions like Graves and Xin have been top shelf picks in the jungle for what feels like years?
deadlychuck4 votesThe reason is that by riot taking such hard control over the balance of the game, they created massive disparities between the optimal and inefficient, so now the only "innovation" that does occur is sparse and dramatically powerful.
The disparity between playing a champion in a position, with a rune set, and with a build, that are both tailored around each other, and a champion maybe in the same position, with a different rune page, and a different build, just ends up having exponential power drop off the further you move away from the optimum.
So the only "innovation", which happens now would probably be better described as a balance "oversight".
If they didn't want to be screwed either way, then their best option would be to lower the power gaps by reducing the efficiency of the most optimal builds. Less significantly punish players, but also to prevent excessively strong new builds from popping up.
Z3Sleeper4 votesWrongo. We advocate against unbalanced role displacement.
For instance, Viktor top was absolutely dumb. Countered a vast majority of top laners. He needed nerfs to this build, as many said, not removal.
More examples of just top lane: Tank Ekko top, Lulu top, Tank Kassadin top, Rek'Sai pre-rework top, Ryze pre-rework top. All of these we were fine with being top, but were all grossly over-tuned at some point on top of having kits that beat out a majority of the residents, thus the hate.