Possibly a controversial opinion

I memba balance ·Mar 21, 2019·35 votes·13,914 views

But I wholeheartedly believe that Courage of the Colossus was a much more healthy Keystone than Aftershock is. All it did was give survivability through a shield that increased by number of enemy champions around. Something that was also much easier to balance. Aftershock gives damage, armor, and magic resist. It's too much. I love tanks and Maokai was my first main champion ever but Aftershock is gross and needs to go. Give tanks a true Keystone that doesn't also give damage. I miss Courage of the Colossus and furthermore, I miss Strength of the Ages.

40 Comments

OtterlyLostMar 21, 201914 votes

I actually miss Courage a lot but at the same time, I feel like they're worried about adding it again because they have Guardian but the problem with that logic is that no one takes Guardian. In theory, Guardian is a great idea for support tanks... but in practice, Aftershock is just so overwhelmingly broken that you can't make an argument for taking Guardian over it as anyone. And that's another thing. A lot of big abusers of it aren't even tanks that it should be. Quinn, Lissandra, Ryze, etc. People who aren't intended to be tanky are using it to be tanky.

I wish they'd bring back Font of Life and Courage of the Colossus. Font of Life had niche uses for supports like Braum and pre-reworked Nunu and Colossus was really nice.

TehNACHOMar 21, 20194 votes

Lissandra and Ryze are actually supposed to be pretty bulky, at least for Mages.

OtterlyLostMar 21, 20193 votes

But they shouldn't be abusing a tank rune for that. What makes them bulky are their individual kits. One gets shields and MS already for properly comboing his abilities and the other has an Ult that makes her invulnerable and heal herself.

TehNACHOMar 22, 20193 votes

What makes them bulky are their individual kits.

And you know, their bulkier than normal itemizations.

Ryze even sometimes building straight Tank items.

The two of them aren't artillery Mages. Ryze is a battle mage and Liss is weird. Them using a Tank rune when they're abnormally Tanky and sometimes even build Tank items shouldn't be such a controversy.

I memba balance Mar 21, 20193 votes

they shouldn't get the full benefit of using what is supposed to be a tank Keystone without building TANK. Currently they're getting 70-120 armor/magic resist while also building full damage. that's bullshit. what they gain in survivability by taking Aftershock completely makes up for what damage they are missing by not taking Electricute or Phase Rush and then some.

TehNACHOMar 22, 20193 votes

Except they're not building full damage. Ryze and Lissandra tend to opt for the bulkier and lower damage (or at least slow scaling item 3027 item 3003 ) AP items. Ryze in particular has always had a history of sometimes opting into straight Tank items, and I imagine Liss would be the same if I knew more about her.

And your last sentence sets up a pretty good premise for why they should be allowed to use the rune. They're giving up damage for survivability, isn't that good tactical decision making that we should be celebrating?

I memba balance Mar 22, 20193 votes

they are BARELY giving up damage for MASSIVE SURVIVABILITY. Rod of Ages and Archangels Staff are not tank are you joking? Scaling yes, tank no. RoA still gives 100 AP and just health? The other gives mana and AP....and I haven't seen a Lissandra build either of those items in a very long time. Since like Season 7.

TehNACHOMar 22, 20196 votes

Notice the word "or".

According to lolalytics, Ryze is 37th place out of 59 Mid Laners in terms of total damage. Lissandra is 44th place. They're not outputting the damage you seem to be hyperbole-ing for.

UmbraNocteMar 22, 20192 votes

Gotta give this one to TehNACHO

Emo TwinkMar 22, 20191 votes

Full dmg liss feels way more better than what we have, and yet they kept nerfing it instead of AS :(

Rocnation98Mar 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I actually miss Courage a lot but at the same time, I feel like they're worried about adding it again because they have Guardian but the problem with that logic is that no one takes Guardian. In theory, Guardian is a great idea for support tanks... but in practice, Aftershock is just so overwhelmingly broken that you can't make an argument for taking Guardian over it as anyone. And that's another thing. A lot of big abusers of it aren't even tanks that it should be. Quinn, Lissandra, Ryze, etc. People who aren't intended to be tanky are using it to be tanky.

I wish they'd bring back Font of Life and Courage of the Colossus. Font of Life had niche uses for supports like Braum and pre-reworked Nunu and Colossus was really nice.

Kench and Taric take gaurdian.

ROYALR3IGNMar 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Kench and Taric take gaurdian.

Don't forget Braum

GalaxyburstzMar 21, 20196 votes

we need survivability stats not more damage

completely agree

I memba balance Mar 22, 20193 votes

HEALTH AND SHIELD Keystones for tanks that SCALE with Bonus HP, Bonus MR, and Bonus Armor so that only champions building up these stats can actually SYNERGIZE with them. it is not fucking hard lol.

Salvor HardınMar 21, 20195 votes

I miss Strength of the Ages

^ THIS

BoilTheOilMar 22, 20191 votes

it was broken though

Warlord RhinarkMar 21, 20194 votes

I agree.

Adding back Courage of the Colossus would also let champions without a shield in their kit take Shield Bash if they want to.

sliceruserMar 21, 20193 votes

ludicrous if it doesnt give damage or move speed its completely inconceivable -rito balance team

SaiannaMar 21, 20192 votes

How about you'd include WHAT is the controversial opinion in the title? What a clickbait.

I memba balance Mar 21, 20192 votes

Karn BishopMar 22, 20192 votes

Game has been on a downward spiral for a while now, high dps runes, keep on nerfing jungle exp and gold then get upset that junglers are ganking more so to fix it they will nerf exp and gold again.

Return old dark harvest and lower all rune damage by 5-15 points across the board, additionally remove rune quests that encourage random aggression for no reason just so you can "stack it" remove jungle plant vision and restore proper jungle vision options, add back the non combat smite buffs like raptors and wolf.

lower camp respawn time in such a way that missing out on camp farm clearing can actually cost you resources thus encouraging junglers who actually visit the jungle.

InSomniãMar 22, 20192 votes

I couldn't agree with you more. Not really about loving tanks but about Aftershock being a non-healthy keystone. I would MUCH rather have them bring that back than keep aftershock although I know Riot won't do anything to fix it.

My main problem with aftershock isn't really when tanks take it (although yes it is insanely annoying to play against). My problem comes when that rune is taken on champion's that aren't legitimate tanks/frontline just solely because of how overtuned the rune is. For examples Lissandra, Galio, Pyke. Galio I could see an argument for him being a frontline tank but Lissandra and Pyke taking Aftershock is the most stupid thing I see. Why are AP mages and Assassins taking a Keystone rune designed for tanks is beyond me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when pyke was first released wasn't he a below average champion? Because Riot designed him to be an assassin like support and that's how everyone played him. He was below average and then some soul in the wild finds out about AFTERSHOCK on pyke and all of a sudden next patch he jumps to 54% winrate and everyone spam picks him causing Riot to quickly nerf Pyke.

It's almost like there is something wrong and overtuned about that rune causing unhealthy gameplay and balance. But what do I know, I'm just a low diamond Rengar one trick wondering every patch why my main has a 47-49% winrate and under 7% play rate.

VectrosMar 22, 20192 votes

I think Aftershock should be changed to something like:

Small base armor/MR (like 1/5 what it is now)+large % of bonus armor mr (maybe even 100%). Greatly reduce current base damage+remove the AD scaling, and add a small shield based on bonus HP.

Now the only way to effectively use it would be to build pure tank-armor/mr+HP. Since it scales entirely off of defense, a tank would become EXTREMELY difficult to kill-loads of armor/mr+shield.

As for Guardian, maybe add some extra passives on it that give bonuses to activatible items, and/or benefits good for allies-additional life steal/atk spd/ap for them when they get shielded. I don't know, not too sure on this. Alternatively, perhaps allow you to take a small part of their damage for them. Maybe a slowly regenerating shield? Greatly enhanced hp regen for a short time whenever you take a skill shot? Shooting out ideas...

Daddy AntsMar 22, 20192 votes

Courage was a lot healthier than Aftershock.

Abibyama IIMar 21, 20191 votes

Wheel armchair game designer coming through

Just combine both and remove the damage. Basically Face of the mountain active but with a slow on a keystone

I memba balance Mar 21, 20191 votes

Wouldn't mind that. But the shield is enough. The reason why Aftershock is broken is because it gives 70-120 of both resists AND gives damage that scales with 3% max health AND 10% of ability power. That is the reason why Lissandra can abuse it and other mages with hard CC. She doesn't have to build tank stats to earn the effective uses for that Keystone. It's literally a stat check Keystone. Go back to old Courage of the Colossus and just give tanks a shield for laying down hard CC. I do like the idea of adding a slow like when the shield pops it sends out a Randuin's type slow that scales with bonus MR and bonus Armor.

Abibyama IIMar 21, 20191 votes

I did say remove the damage and give it a slow

I memba balance Mar 21, 20191 votes

need to remove it giving flat armor and magic resist as well or if you also meant that mb.

BoilTheOilMar 22, 20191 votes

I think keystones as a whole need to go bye bye

I memba balance Mar 22, 20191 votes

I would be totally fine with this as well. I've often said that Runes Reforged was a complete fucking disaster and it's not really gotten better. They had the game somewhat in a decent spot with Deathfire Touch, Fervor, Warlords, Stormraiders, Thunderlords, Windspeakers, Grasp, Bond of Stone, and Courage of the Colossus and then they go and fuck it all up.

rabirinsuMar 22, 20191 votes

range champion shouldn't be encouraged to take after shock. They should make aftershock like grasp, severely worse effect when taken on range champion

Rathar DashingMar 22, 20191 votes

The only problem Courage had was the fact that it was a shield, it allowed you to to dive in and get a huge shield, then leave without ever taking any damage. With Aftershock, you're always taking at least SOME damage when proccing it. One thing they could do is nerf the resists on Aftershock, but make them stronger the more champions are near you when you land your CC. They could also take away the AP/AD ratios and then buff the aftershock damage based on how many times you applied CC in the 2.5 second windup.

I memba balance Mar 22, 20191 votes

No. You're missing the point. I don't want Aftershock. It's fucking stupid. It's not a tank rune and the champions that are abusing it hardest right now aren't even tanks??? Lissandra, Pantheon, Sylas, Ryze, and even occasionally Riven. Tanks with CC and piss pool dueling ability simply take it because they HAVE TO. Grasp is shit outside out lane and provides no real tankyness outside of giving an extra 5 HP per usage. I have absolutely no problem with a tank being able to dive a turret with CoC shielding considering on the daily I'm getting dove by bullshit champions like Riven, Irelia, etc... CoC was an absolutely fine Keystone if tuned correctly and the one that CC tanks NEED. They don't need a Keystone that gives damage. They don't need a Keystone that gives flat stats. They need either healing or shielding because they're FUCKING TANKS.

NevrankroatonMar 22, 20191 votes

Courage olf collossus was kinda bonkers when it came out tho, I really like the idea of gardian more. I saw some clutch fight because of gardians and there is a good logic in trading/all-in in botlane with this keystone. I just feel aftershock need to be worked on a bit but I don't think it is like terribly bad, just that it is again the case of an item/runes/keystone being abused by an other class than the one it designated.

I like it tho because it made mage like lissandra come out of the shell and also bring a good answer to the banker assassin/champion there was at world 2018. But for sure it could need some rethinking so tanks like it more.

Ps: It is not controversial, everyone love to critic the runes system, how are you being controversial? Saying you think vayne is balanced is controversial, saying that mage are still very strong is controversial.

Iota ThetaMar 22, 20191 votes

Courage of the Colossus was pretty great on that front. I miss that big, beautiful shield that got strong with more enemies around.

Wall of text following though.

There’s two big issues I see though that makes Aftershock an issue. The first is the damage. The second is the sheer amount of flat resists it gives. This is what makes it even better on non-tanks. Patch 8.2 is where it broke.

Removed: Armor ratio of 30% armor. Bonus armor increased to 70 − 120 (based on level) from 20 at all levels. Removed: Magic resistance ratio of 30% magic resistance. Bonus magic resistance increased to 70 − 120 (based on level) from 20 at all levels. Shockwave base damage reduced to 10 − 120 (based on level) from 40 − 140 (based on level). Shockwave health ratio reduced to 3% of maximum health from 3.5%. New Effect: Shockwave damage now scales with 15% bonus AD. New Effect: Shockwave damage now scales with 10% AP.

That was all one patch. They made the damage scale with more stats, removed the scaling resists and gave it much higher flat stats. If they revert it to the less damage, lower base stat grant and give it the bonus armor/mr ratios, it’d be much better for tanks. Currently, at level 1 it gives more resists than almost every tank item. For armor, the only items that give more armor than it’s level 1 value are item 3373 item 3110 item 3387 item 3075 , two of which are only available of Ornn is in the match. For MR, the only two items available on Summoner’s Rift that surpass Aftershock’s level 1 value are item 3379 item 3383 , again, only available with Ornn. That’s insane flat value just for one CC.

The problem is, they wanted non tanks to start using it and having fun with it. Honestly, their reasoning on this one..just doesn’t make sense:

Aftershock's base damage is a bit too high, and it's letting champions like Alistar or Leona run wild in early duels against marksmen. Having one mastery be so good for both durability and damage is warping interactions between tanks and squishier champions, so we're shifting the item profile to be less about damage and more about durability. While we're at it, we're shifting the resistances gain from percent to flat so that divers can get in on the fun, too.

I honestly don’t understand. You took a rune that tanks would prefer, and made it a Diver preferred rune. If it’s to stay instead of Courage of the Colossus, Give it back the bonus resist ratios, reduce the flat amount. They honestly broke it when they made that change.

ProfDrDeathMar 22, 20191 votes

Personally, I agree that the shield was a better effect for tanks than the current bonus resistances. The reason is that tank items oftentimes already feature resistances, making additional health (or pseudo-health in form of shields) much more valuable than additional resistances.

I'd absolutely love it if they took Courage of the Colossus's mechanics and added the damage component of current Aftershock for an Aftershock rework.

Not Ganking BotMar 22, 20191 votes

Not sure why your complaining, its the riot balance team, if they removed aftershock it would be replaced with a rune that gives a free dash or 100 movement speed for 10 seconds lol...........

Chromatic EagleMar 22, 20191 votes

How is it a controversial opinion?

TheDikBreakerMar 23, 20191 votes

What you're not realizing is that Riot is moving away from shields because they are incredibly annoying. Throwing all of your abilities onto someone just for them to take 0 damage because a shield ate it is terrible.

I memba balance Mar 23, 20191 votes

For starters, there would be a cooldown so that CoC could only proc once per fight, and tanks SHOULD be rewarded for playing their role and frontline facetanking damage to allow their own damage dealers to DPS in relative safety. I have absolutely no problem with granting a shield that scales with how many enemy champions are within a certain range, bonus health, bonus armor/magic resist, etc. Stop trying to give tanks Keystones that have damage attached for no fucking reason. Tanks are SUPPOSED to soak damage, be immobile, and have high base damages with shit scaling, and CC. And for champions like Nautilus, place a mechanic that puts CoC on a CD while a shield is active or give it like 50% of it's normal shield.