Lets have a discussion about why stacking armor penetration seems to scale better than crit chance

Critkeeper··1 votes·463 views

I've noticed that you are trying to make tanks much tankier in team fights but less oppressive in 1v1, especially (or incidentally) against heavy crit users (skirmishers for instance) who should ideally be doing a lot of damage to tanks. I believe you said part of that isn't so much that tanks shouldn't be able to win any duels against crit carries, its just that the crits have to hit obscenely hard to smash through the tank's resists and health, especially if they have to compete in damage against penetration oriented carries.

So it makes sense to see a combination of nerfs to penetration and a reorientation of tanks towards durability in group fights and less durability in solo fights.

However, frozen heart and randuins omen both stack. It works out to 0.8 * 0.85 = 0.68. That means that just the passives on these items can work together to allow a tank to ignore about a third of the damage output of a crit based auto attacker. This means it takes 50% longer for a pure auto attacker to kill such a tank, regardless of whether it is in a group fight or a solo fight. Nerfing the resists or health of tanks makes them squisher both against armor penetration oriented attackers and against crit oriented attackers.

In fact I see a lot of people building randuins who shouldn't even be building it (yasuo for instance), simply because it is too effective versus auto attackers in all circumstances. If you want to know why armor pen oriented builds seem to be virtually as good against tanks as crit oriented builds, consider that a third of all the attack speed the crit user builds will be ignored by the tank, but none of the armor penetration will be ignored.

Normally this would be a moot point because the attack speed slows also reduces the attack speed of the armor pen oriented carry, but it isn't-- it doesn't reduce the ability damage of said carry or change the run and gun damage. Jhin was so strong without a ton of attack speed because you overestimated the time marksmen would spend issuing auto attacks at full speed and underestimated the amount of time marksmen would spend moving around and issuing pot-shots at frequency that makes attack speed irrelevant. This is the same reason armor pen oriented carries scale at least as well, if not better than crit oriented carries.

Theoretically the shard items should give crit oriented users an edge here-- but they can't. Even the buffs to the shard items on PBE right now won't be enough, and can't be enough without making them too strong. The issue isn't crit itemization, its the attack speed slows. The plain fact is that even if you had a chance to sit in one place and attack at full speed, your damage output against the targets you will most likely be able to do that against is reduced by a third-- thats just too damn much. Its no wonder people feel armor pen orientation is more effective than "auto attacks per second" orientation. People have correctly identified that putting their money on making their abilities harder hitting via armor pen is more effective than putting their money into something that they will be punished for using-- their attack speed.

You need to think about whether passive attack speed slows are really something that a tank item should have. It would make more sense to have tanks ignore a % of ability damage, rather than a % of attack speed, considering the fact that RIOT has repeatedly expressed concern that ability users like assassins and burst mages continue to deal more damage to tanks than RIOT believes is warranted.

4 Comments

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Nah.

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

Nah.

what a great contribution to the discussion

ScissorsNstuff1 votes

what really happened is that crit items got kindof strong but the biggest crit item item 3031 got nerfed

meanwhile AS is buffed.

its become a better idea to get 50% crit than 100% crit and 50% scales well with armor penetration as at as cost efficiency goes.

Critkeeper1 votes

I don't know if RIOT saw this thread and had a discussion with themselves to discuss the topic, but Randuins Omen received changes on the PBE today to make it an "anti-crit" item rather than an "anti attack speed" item.

Gold cost increased from 2600g to 3000g Build Path: Thornmail + Giant's Belt + 800g Armor lowered from 60 to 50 [New] Now gives -15% damage taken from critical strikes Unique Passive renamed to Thorns Unique Passive - Thorns: When basic attacked, deal magic damage to the attacker equal to 15% bonus Armor, doubled for critical strikes

This will be fantastic for the balance between crit oriented champions and penetration oriented champions, despite how counter-intuitive it seems. Basically what this means is that critical strike won't have to spike as hard late game to make it competitive against a more penetration focused build, because without the randuins omen attack speed slow attack speed is proportionally more valuable.

In other words, actually using your attack speed isn't something you will be punished as much for-- which means the mid game of the more traditional damage -> attack speed -> crit oriented build is good enough to compete with the mid game of penetration builds, which means that you can actually access the late game of crit oriented builds more reliably without losing the game before you can get there.

Typically even crit oriented ad carries don't get 100% crit chance, so -15% damage from crits is less of a damage reducer than -15% attack speed. Overall this works to bring up the mid game of auto attack focused builds and helps to compete with penetration focused builds.

This is fantastic, its a way of making both penetration and auto attack builds viable in their own way without one being strictly better than the other.

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