In Compensation for DFG's Removal, Ahri gets... A NERF?!?

Pika310·Jan 18, 2015·13 votes·5,464 views

**Orb of Deception: **Ahri gains movement speed whilst the ball travels.

Interesting, good for king. Meh for chasing. Great for escaping.

Foxfire: Higher base and scaling.

Probably overdue, finally does some viable damage. Maybe.

Alright, that's it for changes, a job well-done I'd say. They'll monitor her to see if she needs more than just this.

Wait, what do you mean that's not it?

Charm: No longer charms.

So let's see:

Q does a lot less damage W does a lot less damage R does a lot less damage

Whelp, good thing they compensated Ahri's lost damage by removing even more damage, RIOT LOGIC. Apparently skill-based assassins aren't allowed to exist. Unless you have point-click abilities, you aren't allowed to be an assassin. High skill, high reward? Apparently that was all bs.

Sona got dumpstered. Ahri getting pushed out of viable mids. We just can't have nice things...

My condolences to everyone that already bought her new skin.

78 Comments

Insanity 101Jan 18, 20156 votes

Ahri isn't supposed to be an assassin, she is supposed to be a Mage.

But in season 3 when she had a more damage on her w and r, she became extremely OP thanks to DFG. Riot decided to nerf her by forcing her to land charm to assassinate and gutting the damage on her w and r, essentially making Mage Ahri pointless. A lot of people complained about the fact that instead of weaving around team fights trying to deal as much AOE damage as possible, she just dove in, killed someone, then hoped she could get out.

So no it's not a nerf, it is a power shift. Perhaps ahri will get more buffs in the future, but they are not going to return that stupid damage amp, stop acting like it was always a core part of her kit. It actually completely alienated her from her original design.

Kerrigan 4 PrezJan 18, 20157 votes

Ahri isn't supposed to be an assassin, she is supposed to be a Mage. My friend Ahri is listed as a mage assassin like leblanc.

Insanity 101Jan 19, 20151 votes

Ahri is listed as a MAGE ASSASSIN, primarily as a Mage.

Leblanc is listed as an Assassin Mage. :P

Also ahri is supposed to be assassin in way that she can situationally take out wounded targets in a teamfight by herself, not dive in, OMFGWTFBBQ someone then die.

Pika310Jan 18, 20154 votes

it is a power shift.

Except the power didn't get "shifted" anywhere this time. It got removed completely. Her main damage source, Q does a straight 20% less damage.

Her worst damage source, W will do maybe the same at best. Which says nothing since it's already her worst damage source.

Her ult does a straight 20% less damage. Ahri just straight up will do no damage anymore, like how they destroyed Sona on July 30th.

KMannnnn1Jan 18, 20152 votes

Fun Fact: a champion's overall power is dictated by more than their damage potential. It's a shift from raw damage to mobility, which can be equally powerful in the right situation.

Pika310Jan 18, 20153 votes

So they're turning Ahri into a weaker version of Orianna? Understood.

EnvyDragonJan 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Fun Fact: a champion's overall power is dictated by more than their damage potential. It's a shift from raw damage to mobility, which can be equally powerful in the right situation.

{quoted}

So they're turning Ahri into a weaker version of Orianna? Understood.

a weaker version of Orianna?

mobility

Orianna

Wait wait wait. What?

No, no, hold on, what?

She has like 500 movespeed while her Q is in the air, her ult literally gives her 3 consecutive flashes, and somehow that makes you think of Orianna?!

Hell no! Orianna's oppressive because of her ball. It has nothing to do with her mobility. Ahri can kite and chase forever now. She's already gank-immune on live when her ult's available, and now she has the leeway to do it with her Q as well.

And for the record, her E DOES still charm. It doesn't amp damage, but it charms. Slows, too.

Done25Jan 18, 20152 votes

{quoted} Wait wait wait. What?

No, no, hold on, what?

She has like 500 movespeed while her Q is in the air, her ult literally gives her 3 consecutive flashes, and somehow that makes you think of Orianna?!

Hell no! Orianna's oppressive because of her ball. It has nothing to do with her mobility. Ahri can kite and chase forever now. She's already gank-immune on live when her ult's available, and now she has the leeway to do it with her Q as well.

And for the record, her E DOES still charm. It doesn't amp damage, but it charms. Slows, too.

Seriously. "So she's a weaker Orianna now?" Last I checked people were still terrified of Orianna and her safe harass. If Ahri is a more mobile Orianna I don't see why they think she's being nerfed.

[Though I fail to see how she and Orianna have similar kits. Like, at all. Orianna is an AoE Disrupter Mage, and Ahri is a highly mobile poke Assassin Mage]

Pika310Jan 18, 20152 votes

Orianna herself is immobile, but The Ball is more mobile than Ahri and has better utility and CC.

The Ball can't be attacked, Ahri can. Ahri is putting herself in danger to do a worse job than something that's along the lines of an "untargetable minion."

Done25Jan 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Orianna herself is immobile, but The Ball is more mobile than Ahri and has better utility and CC.

The Ball can't be attacked, Ahri can. Ahri is putting herself in danger to do a worse job than something that's along the lines of an "untargetable minion."

You're making my head hurt here. While the Ball can't be attacked, Orianna CAN. And without the Ball to protect her she is both slow and fragile. Neither of which applies to the multi dash Ahri with a passive on spell hit heal.

In fact, let me spell it out for you.

Orianna uses her Q to throw out the Ball so she can try to W Ahri. Ahri counter attacks with her own Q, using its new speed boost to dodge out of the way. Orianna calls the Ball back to shield herself. Without the Ball to threaten her Ahri uses R to reposition past the minions and land an E while Ori's Q is still recharging. By the time the CC wears off Oriana just ate a face full of Fox Fire and Ahri has used her R to jump away again, escaping retaliation from both Orianna AND the jungler that just tried to gank her.

Emmy Cha0sJan 19, 20152 votes

fragile.

Neither of which applies to Ahri

Done. It's clear you don't even know anything about Ahri, but I assumed that from your previous posts. This just proved it beyond reasonable doubt.

First of all, an Orianna's primary focus should never be harassing the enemy laner. Only when an opportunity arises, she shouldn't be trying to make those opportunities. Orianna is a farming champion that relies on multiple items to help her team in a pseudo support mid-lane capacity.

Since I realize you've never laned against Orianna, let me tell you that attempting to break through her giant shield and free armor/MR is incredibly difficult. Without your jungler camping her, kill potential on Ori is significantly low.

Insanity 101Jan 19, 20151 votes

What do you mean they do 20% less dmg? She doesn't charm EVERYONE in a teamfight so that she can do 20% more dmg, stop overreacting. >_>

They do 20% less dmg to a single target. Her AOE dmg is has been buffed. Idk why you keep saying that she "blatantly" lost 20% dmg. Did you even play the old Ahri? You are acting like she can't do dmg without the amp even if she has a 100% ap ratio on all her abilities.

Also what about when Ahri never had that dmg amp in the first place (thx DFG)? Was she underpowered? Hellno she did fine without it. I agree she needs a few more buffs, but they should not return that stupid dmg amp because it just forces her into one role.

Pika310Jan 19, 20151 votes

Also what about when Ahri never had that dmg amp in the first place (thx DFG)?

You're intentionally ignoring the fact her abilities had much higher bases and scalings, Charm's debuff was to compensate for lowering these and making her kit more interactive. Riot is removing the debuff without increasing all of her bases and scalings. That's nothing short of a nerf.

She doesn't charm EVERYONE in a teamfight

If you're Q'ing the whole enemy team, there are 2 issues:

The enemy team are playing extremely bad or attempting to utilize Sona's kit. Which admittedly is synonymous to playing really bad...
You're doing absurd amounts of AoE true damage. It doesn't matter that it's fairly low to each of them individually, they just lost a huge percent as a combined unit. A teamfight would already be lost, they have to retreat.

Experienced players will never let Ahri hit more than 1 or 2 people with Orb. Fact is Ahri's damage is no less single-target than before this. Thus now that she does less single-target damage, it's an unadulterated nerf to her.

Insanity 101Jan 19, 20151 votes

Her abilities had much higher bases and scalings...

That is true, which is why I agree she needs more buffs. But I do not want that damage amp back.

The problem is you guys are quite literally flipping your shit at experimental early PBE changes and demanding her amp be returned because they didn't buff her dmg enough.

Pika310Jan 19, 20151 votes

They didn't buff her damage at all, they nerfed it.

That aside, there's nothing "experimental" about PBE. As Riot Jag himself said in regards to Sona: changes on PBE are set in stone and WILL reach the next patch, regardless of player feedback.

PBE isn't a testing ground, just a placeholder while Riot decides if they feel they've nerfed things enough or if they want to do even more nerfs.

Done25Jan 18, 20155 votes

Holy crap people.

Chill your tits. Ahri is still an assassin. She just has less SINGLE target damage in exchange for more mobility on Q and more damage on her W+E.

Her playstyle was originally all about jumping around the outsides of a fight and nailing as many people as she can. And with these changes she's simply being returned to that.

"E -> DFG -> nuke that single target -> then run away" is an unhealthy play style and was never intended.

Pika310Jan 18, 20155 votes

An assassin that can't do damage is not an assassin.

W has the lowest damage output on her kit, increased bases and scalings will at best break even damage-wise. Her main damage source: Q is blatantly 20% weaker now. R is blatantly 20% weaker now. E is not an ability meant for damage, it was for CC and then for a debuff to make up for the original damage nerfs, which I believe were around 15% to all her bases and scalings, give or take.

Ahri didn't get damage buffs on her Q or R to compensate. She just blatantly doesn't do damage anymore.

Her playstyle was originally all about jumping around the outsides of a fight and nailing as many people as she can. And with these changes she's simply being returned to that.

You're intentionally ignoring the fact that back then her spells' bases and scalings were significantly higher. They added the debuff to E to compensate for this. Now Riot is blatantly removing that debuff without making ANY compensations at all. Ahri is just getting purely nerfed, there's really no reasonable argument to this fact. Riot removed DFG, Ahri was supposed to get compensations for this. Removing Charm is just slapping us in the face and saying, "Just kidding, we were never gonna actually compensate her for losing DFG."

Done25Jan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

An assassin that can't do damage is not an assassin.

W has the lowest damage output on her kit, increased bases and scalings will at best break even damage-wise. Her main damage source: Q is blatantly 20% weaker now. R is blatantly 20% weaker now. E is not an ability meant for damage, it was for CC and then for a debuff to make up for the original damage nerfs, which I believe were around 15% to all her bases and scalings, give or take.

Ahri didn't get damage buffs on her Q or R to compensate. She just blatantly doesn't do damage anymore.

You're intentionally ignoring the fact that back then her spells' bases and scalings were significantly higher. They added the debuff to E to compensate for this. Now Riot is blatantly removing that debuff without making ANY compensations at all. Ahri is just getting purely nerfed, there's really no reasonable argument to this fact. Riot removed DFG, Ahri was supposed to get compensations for this. Removing Charm is just slapping us in the face and saying, "Just kidding, we were never gonna actually compensate her for losing DFG."

There is no reason why they can't increase her damage if she needs more. These changes JUST went up on the PBE.

Everyone does damage. Veigar can easily 100-0 a squishy. But he is not an Assassin. LB is an Assassin. Fizz is an Assassin. Talon. Zed. Kass. You know what they all have? Huge amounts of mobility so they can reach vulnerable targets and escape dangerous situations. Just like Ahri.

In case you didn't know the numbers the Q speed boost jumps her move speed up to 500+ then drops back down to 450 till it returns. Make no mistake. She is now MUCH more mobile without relying only on her ult.

Pika310Jan 18, 20153 votes

Great, she'll have mobility and no damage to back it up. Guess she may as well go full-tank Froggen-style and just ult into the middle of the enemy team to draw their attention and apply disruption. Or I can play Orianna and do the exact thing more safely.

Done25Jan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Great, she'll have mobility and no damage to back it up. Guess she may as well go full-tank Froggen-style and just ult into the middle of the enemy team to draw their attention and apply disruption. Or I can play Orianna and do the exact thing more safely.

Or Riot could be going for something more than "See who can burst the hardest." Mobility is a strength, and Ahri is about to get a LOT stronger.

Emmy Cha0sJan 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Or Riot could be going for something more than "See who can burst the hardest." Mobility is a strength, and Ahri is about to get a LOT stronger.

Lmfao! You win troll post of the day.

Now you can go back to your paper 5 games knowing you've accomplished your intended goal.

Malix FarwinJan 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

An assassin that can't do damage is not an assassin.

item 3070 Kassadin

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20154 votes

p much, he's just a mobile bruiser right now lmao

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20154 votes

You know, that what you've described down there

"E -> DFG -> nuke that single target -> then run away" is an unhealthy play style and was never intended.

Zed basically does the same

R -> does as much damage as possible -> R out -> rip

and why is he allowed to keep his single burst as Assasin, and Ahri not? Ahri after all needs to hit her combo, while Zed just has to press R.

Done25Jan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You know, that what you've described down there

Zed basically does the same

R -> does as much damage as possible -> R out -> rip

and why is he allowed to keep his single burst as Assasin, and Ahri not? Ahri after all needs to hit her combo, while Zed just has to press R.

2 parts:

Zed's kit is a healthy playstyle, BUT his numbers are massively overtuned atm and Riot needs to nerf them. Peopple are supposed to die AFTER his R goes off, not BEFORE. They should also make his Q act like Lux's, with the 2nd target taking only half damage and the projectile ends there so as to lower his far too easy harass and wave clear.
Because Zed does not have a very powerful sustain passive like Ahri does. If she can escape she can easily heal back up given time. Her Q is also much more powerful as a harassing and wave clearing tool. It's your failure if you go full penetration/tank and build no AP to power her kit.

Malix FarwinJan 18, 20154 votes

First point agreed

Second point? whut?

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20154 votes

How is it healthy if he can keep spamming his W+Q combo? like he's so safe and as someone who lanes against him, I have to try to dodge either the Q from his shadow or zed or even both at the same time (if the zed is experienced) His E helps him to stick close to his targets, and has high juke potential with his R and W shadows, escaping in safety after he has ulted and also making him harder to cc.

Zed has for that all the botrk, allowing him to sustain pretty well, and wich his range of his shadows he doesn't have to take as much harrass if he wants to play safe. as champion with energy he can spam his abilities as often as he wants.

Malix FarwinJan 18, 20155 votes

Zed is not a good example to support your argument considering that everyone (but riot apparently) thinks zed is part of the problem

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20154 votes

I didn't wanted to choose a example, but you know, Zed does really the same. He just assasinates a single target, with his passive making it much easier to amplifiy damage to that target, since his ult scales on physical and magic damage from all sources. After all, Ahri has actually to hit her Charm to fulfill her combo, and Zed has nothing to do, except being in a 1v1 situation and do as much damage as possible. And it gets even worse with all the armor shredding items that he can build to do as much damage as possible on his deathmark.

Done25Jan 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I didn't wanted to choose a example, but you know, Zed does really the same. He just assasinates a single target, with his passive making it much easier to amplifiy damage to that target, since his ult scales on physical and magic damage from all sources. After all, Ahri has actually to hit her Charm to fulfill her combo, and Zed has nothing to do, except being in a 1v1 situation and do as much damage as possible. And it gets even worse with all the armor shredding items that he can build to do as much damage as possible on his deathmark.

Last Whisper, Botrk, Void Staff, and DFG are all hugely toxic problems atm.

Enemy Zed is getting fed. You buy Armor. He buys LW. You buy HP. He buys BotRK.

Now what do you do?

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20155 votes

Thats the problem. DFG remove probably buffs Zed much more, because he can faster assasinate than other champions now. Mostly because his ultimate does physical damage, it scales pretty well with the armor pen he buys. Riot really needs to take a closer look at zed, if he still can assasinate without any problems, while champions like Ahri, Leblanc, and Veigar can't anymore.

Done25Jan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thats the problem. DFG remove probably buffs Zed much more, because he can faster assasinate than other champions now. Mostly because his ultimate does physical damage, it scales pretty well with the armor pen he buys. Riot really needs to take a closer look at zed, if he still can assasinate without any problems, while champions like Ahri, Leblanc, and Veigar can't anymore.

Armor penetration is a god awful unbalanced mess.

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20153 votes

well, one way to balance it, would be if his ult would do magic damage instead of physical damage. his armor pen would become useless for his ult and buying qss would become a counter item against him.

Done25Jan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

well, one way to balance it, would be if his ult would do magic damage instead of physical damage. his armor pen would become useless for his ult and buying qss would become a counter item against him.

That would also make it more difficult to defend against as people naturally gain armor over time, while only melee champions gain MR. Riot just needs to do something about Penetration so that it's not so obscenely cost effective at boosting your damage.

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20153 votes

is that so bad? i mean, you can buy a mr item and the burst would become less effective as well, except if zed would build a voidstaff, wich synthesizes pretty awful with him. His armor pen items would also become less effective for his ultimate and the only way how to effectively assasinate his targets would be if he does as much damage as possible until the trigger activates.

Done25Jan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

is that so bad? i mean, you can buy a mr item and the burst would become less effective as well, except if zed would build a voidstaff, wich synthesizes pretty awful with him. His armor pen items would also become less effective for his ultimate and the only way how to effectively assasinate his targets would be if he does as much damage as possible until the trigger activates.

The problem is: How many Marksmen or Mages actually buy more than 1 MR item? Or can even afford to do so without it crippling their build?

It Is I EmotoJan 19, 20153 votes

as an mana depending mage, you usually buy a chalice, wich does has a neat number for mr. As adc, you can build an qss, wich also builds to an ad item. so... whats issue then?

right now the problem is that adcs cant build armor at all, making it for zed ez to kill them than you think

Done25Jan 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

as an mana depending mage, you usually buy a chalice, wich does has a neat number for mr. As adc, you can build an qss, wich also builds to an ad item. so... whats issue then?

Because it's still not going to save them from the other 70% of his damage, which is physical. Or help them out trade the other team's Marksman.

It Is I EmotoJan 19, 20152 votes

Mages can build actually armor and magic resist, It's even favorable to build abysall scepter sometimes. As adc tho.. well you'd be still a glass canon, but 80 ad + 40 magic resist are pretty good stats if you ask me.

Der LindwurmJan 18, 20154 votes

Open season on foxes.

Gym Leader YakiJan 18, 20152 votes

DFG getting removed? Proof?

TomA3XJan 18, 201510 votes

You been living under a rock? :P http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/GinIa17t-52-live-gameplay-patch-forecast

Gym Leader YakiJan 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You been living under a rock? :P http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/GinIa17t-52-live-gameplay-patch-forecast

thanks

Yulen XoshxiusJan 18, 20151 votes

I am confused, you said W does less damage, but didn't you just point out W does more damage? Also the speed boost would have been better if you could hit an opponent with the orb more than twice... Using the ult to teleport back and forth around an opponent would have been awesome.

Done25Jan 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yulen Xoshxius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JwnrOt0u,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-01-18T23:04:53.089+0000)

I am confused, you said W does less damage, but didn't you just point out W does more damage? Also the speed boost would have been better if you could hit an opponent with the orb more than twice... Using the ult to teleport back and forth around an opponent would have been awesome.

While near impossible to do, that would be hilarious.

W will do more damage on its own, but less than what it does now when boosted by her E. People are just being butthurt they can't use E+DFG to nuke people.

Yulen XoshxiusJan 18, 20151 votes

I see, also they shouldn't remove the chance to do the thing with the Q, if its impossible no reason to ban it XD

Done25Jan 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yulen Xoshxius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JwnrOt0u,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2015-01-18T23:26:19.972+0000)

I see, also they shouldn't remove the chance to do the thing with the Q, if its impossible no reason to ban it XD

Because it's such a niche and difficult to perform action they don't want it to warp her power levels in professional hands. Just imagine Q goes out, them starts to come back in. Two hits so far. R, R, R, Flash. Those two hit just became six. Five of which were True Damage.

Pika310Jan 18, 20153 votes

W has a higher base and scaling, but it also does less damage from Charm's debuff being removed. In a mathematical sense, I basically stated it does the same amount of damage, give or take. Admittedly, the way I said it is confusing language-wise and that's my fault. I have a habit of looking at everything using numbers rather than words.

For example: I had to proofread this one response only thrice before getting it to sound right.

Yulen XoshxiusJan 19, 20153 votes

Thaks for clarifying that! And also its very venerable to admit a mistake.

Yulen XoshxiusJan 19, 20152 votes

I want to add that I hope they change Zed's damage enhancement as well since they are going down this path. Although I will miss Exhaust if they go too far with it.