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[Theorycraft] Thoughts about CDR itemization (V1)

DeathBurst··3 votes·528 views

So there has been some kind of war between "AD itemization is trash" (because AD assassins have no core item) vs "AP itemization is trash" (because Mages have no good CDR build when ADC have F-in' Essence Reaver with 30% on a single item). Obviously, both sides are biased, but that made me think about what a good item set regarding CDR specifically could be. Here are my thoughts, send your comments and improvements ;) This is only a first draft, some problems are still open.

**Base components: ** They are very generic. The idea here is: why do you want CDR? With basic components being targeted to different classes and providing the core stat for this class in addition to some CDR. There is also a "class-agnostic" mana+CDR item that gives you the resources you need to effectively use your spells more often. Do Supports need a specific CDR item, with maybe Mana Regen? Should Health+CDR be targeted towards Fighter specifically, and Tanks get a new item with Armor-and/or-MR+CDR?

  • AD+CDR: AD assassins, some fighters, the most caster-oriented ADC
  • AP+CDR: AP assassins, mages
  • HP+CDR: tanks, some fighters
  • Mana+CDR: class-agnostic, allows you to spam your spells more
  • ManaRegen+CDR: supports?
  • Armor+CDR / MR+CDR: pure Tanks?

We already have basic items that follow this pattern in the current game, respectively item 3133 item 3108 item 3067 item 3057 item 3114 . But they have some issues. Kindlegem with HP+CDR doesn't really upgrade into Tanks/Fighters items, except Spirit Visage. Fiendish Codex has 2 upgrades for Mages, but they are mutually exclusive (Morello and Athene), because they give too much mana regen. There is also item 3024 that gives 2 stats, mana and armor. I feel it was targeted as a cheap component with CDR for Tanks, but it doesn't fit our pattern. Sheen with mana+CDR is too specific to be used on most mana champions, and the Spellblade proc is so good that it is sometimes used on champs without mana at all. It's also the only one in this list with an additional effect on top of raw stats + CDR There is also item 3101 , which is a strange item. It gives AS+CDR, 2 stats that seem mutually exclusive, and its only upgrade is Nashor's Tooth.

So it seems better to remove Spellblade from Sheen, put it on Stinger instead, and remove the CDR on Stinger. AS seems more logical with the Spellblade proc, which means that you auto-attack at least a bit. Still, tying Spellblade with CDR instead of AP (the recent Sheen rework) was a good idea, meaning all classes could use Spellblade. So I think a new line of Spellblade items with one CDR component + the new Stinger should be better.

**Upgrades: ** Now that we have the basic blocks, the question becomes: how easy should it be for different classes to get CDR. I'll make a few assumptions here, feel free to challenge them, but keep in mind the remainder of the post is made to be consistent with these assumptions.

  • Damage dealer classes (Assassins, ADC, mages) should have to make a meaningful trade-off between full damage and full CDR builds
  • Utility classes (Tanks and especially Supports) should have easy ways to reach the CDR cap, since it's their main scaling stat.
  • Fighters may have access to optimal full builds with 40% CDR, but they shouldn't be able to get it early in the game, given the importance of their skills in lane trades.

Onto the real upgrades now:

  • Tank items:
  • 1 core item with 20% CDR that should be soft-restricted to Tanks via its passive (to avoid Fighters abusing it). A reworked Sunfire Cape? (But what about laning versus an AP opponent?)
  • 3 items with 10% CDR each, one for Armor, one for MR, one for Health
  • 1 Spellblade item scaling with Tanks stats (like current Iceborn Gauntlet)

==> That's a total of 50% CDR available. Any Tank should be able to get to 30% in any game, then he could go for a full CDR build or more utility-focused items (Righteous Glory, etc.) depending on the game.

  • ADC:
  • Spellblade item that scale with bonus AD, with 20% CDR. Reworked Essence Reaver, so maybe AD+CDR + Mana+CDR + Stinger with a mana sustain passive. A bit of Crit in the item should avoid Assassins abusing it.
  • (Death's Dance? See below.)

==> Any ADC should be able to use Spellblade, so that makes 20%CDR available to all ADCs. If they want to go to 40%, they can use Lucidity Boots or Runes. It's still possible, but there is an obvious trade-off. Another possibility is to use one of the defensive items in the Tank line, according to the higher threat in the opposing team, or Youmuu, which is more geared towards Assassins.

  • AD assassins:

    • Youmuu, 10 %.
    • core Assassin item, typically like the "new assassin dagger" recently revealed on the board, 10%.
    • Lucidity Boots, 10% (there isn't really a better pair of boots for AD assassins, so we need to take into account that they will use this one)
    • no Spellblade item for them?

    ==> Assassins can get to 30% relatively easily, and reach 40% with Runes or one of the defensive items in the Tank line.

  • Fighters:

    • Reworked Black Cleaver, with only 10%
  • The Tank items with 10% each should also be attractive for Fighters, especially the Health one.
  • One Spellblade item scaling with Base AD. Reworked Triforce, built from Health+CDR + Stinger + Phage. Cement Triforce identity as a Fighter item. Lose Critical Chance. May gain %MS with the upgrade to keep it close to Live version.

==> That's 30% CDR almost guaranteed for Fighters, but no early spike since no item is at 20%. They have a large number of solutions to complete to 40%: Boots, Runes, a second defensive item from the Tank Line, Youmuu for the offense side (maybe Death's Dance).

  • Mages/AP Assassins:
  • A choice of 2 Mana items with 10%
    • Early-game power: AP+CDR + Chalice. Reworked Athene, with reduced CDR.
    • Late-game power: AP+CDR + Tear. Reworked Seraph, THE item for spamming your spells.
  • One item with 20%, built from AP+CDR + Mana+CDR, for those who want an early CDR power-spike, a reworked Morello. But should have a low slot efficiency and be mutually exclusive with the 2 previous ones (because of Mana overload), to avoid easy full-CDR builds. Now Seraph is for late-game, Morello for offensive early game and Athene for defensive early game (with a better slot efficiency, for better late game scaling).
  • 1 or 2 generic AP-caster items with 10% CDR, but we need a way to prevent stacking them together or with Morello. Maybe reworked Liandry and Luden to include the AP+CDR component, with Luden geared toward poke/burst and Liandry geared toward DPS as an incentive to not take both? Not ideal...
  • Spellblade item scaling with AP, 10%. Reworked Lichbane, built from AP+CDR + Stinger (+ Wisp if we want to keep the %MS boost).
  • Reworked Nashor with only 10% CDR. Built from AP+CDR + Recurve Bow (which should be the basic block for all on-hit items, no reason that it isn't in Nashor's recipe already)

==> All Mages should easily get 20% CDR (1 mana + 1 generic item, or Morello), and 30% for those that can use a niche item on top of that (Spellblade or Nashor). Beyond that, there is Lucidity Boots (but you abandon some damage potential with Sorc Boots), Runes (typically instead of MR Runes, so you are significantly weaker in early game), a Tank item or a Support item. That seems like a good spot.

  • Supports:

    • Gold items all have 10% CDR
    • All "support-specific items" have 10% CDR, and any given support should use at least one of them:
      • Ardent Censer
      • reworked Aegis (CDR moved into Aegis, instead of in the 2nd component for the upgrade)
      • Mikael
    • Frozen Heart should probably be reworked, too.
    • Tank supports can use the Tank items with 10% effectively (if not the core item at 20% because they don't get enough gold to really invest in the passive scaling)
    • Mage supports can use the generic AP-caster items with 10%, or even Morello (slot-efficiency is not really an issue for supports)

    ==> Support should be able to reach 40% CDR easily if they want to.

**What about Death's Dance? ** I don't really understand to what class this item is targeted. The CDR+lifesteak on skills scream AD-caster, but do Assassins and Fighter really want to invest in LifeSteal? And the more caster-oriented ADCs deal a significant part of their damage as magic damage (Ezreal, Corki, some Kogmaw builds, etc.), so don't benefit from it either. Maybe this item should be reworked to be generically appealing to all AD-casters regardless of class, and in that case Youmuu/Essence Reaver should maybe give 10% less CDR.

Mana+CDR component? I said it should be "class-agnostic", but in the end, I used it only in a Mage item. What should be done with it? Maybe it should replace Tear? (Probly not) Any cool ideas to exploit it?

10 Comments

ProfDrDeath2 votes

The first question you should ask yourself: What does CdR do as a stat?

Its direct impact is to reduce your abilities' cooldowns, enabling you to cast them more often. Cool, who does not want that?

Now, go a level up: What does CdR do on a meta-level, to the way a champion functions?

Two important things stand out there, and they are very connected to each other:

  • For one thing, it shifts your ability cast pattern towards a more sustained one, shortening the windows in which you are powerless/vulnerable. If you use abilities for damage, your DPS increases. If you have a burst rotation, you can use that more often, decreasing the impact of a botched rotation and the feeling of powerlessness. If you use abilities for CC or utility, you have more control over a fight. This is important in the regard that champions are balanced around their patterns and their expected role/behaviour. For instance, an assassin or burst mage is balanced around having a strong rotation of abilities he uses to try and kill a priority target. In exchange, once these abilities are down, the champion in question has a period of weakness, which can be abused by his enemies.
  • The second, connected point has to do with your resources: The most common resource in the game is mana, which restricts the user in the long run by its slow regeneration, but allows him to be only restricted by cooldowns in the short run. Contrasting with that is energy, which has the reverse effect - restricting in the short run, due to the small pool, but high regeneration makes it not restricting at all in the long view. The third kind of resource is using your HP to cast, but those types of champions usually come with powerful sustain mechanics. And finally, champions which don't have a cost for casting their abilities, and are only restricted by cooldowns. These four types of resource restrictions operate differently with regards to CdR: Mana users typically like an extended mana pool or higher regen with their CdR, as it allows them to sustain them with their extended mana consumption over time. Energy users typically don't make as much use out of CdR, as their ability to sustain a higher casting frequency is limited by their resource, anyway. The third and fourth kind of champions have no secondary restriction, meaning they profit from CdR a whole lot more than the mana or energy users.

Both of these points explain why the items system is set up the way it is, giving easier access to CdR to some classes and types of champions while restricting the access of others.

Why do ADCs have the best access to high CdR values, in Essence Reaver?

This is, again, a question of pattern. Ask yourself, what do you bring an ADC for in a team composition?

The answer is, sustained damage / DPS.

What does CdR do?

Increase the sustainedness of casting.

Which ADCs do, primarily, build Essence Reaver? And which do not?

MissFortune Ezreal Lucian Corki Quinn Sivir . In general, AD carries whose abilities supply a significant part of their sustained damage. The utility ADCs, Ashe & Kalista , on the other hand, use their abilities for utility to a significant degree, and most of their damage comes from auto-attacks. They do not build Essence Reaver. In fact, both of them are set up in a way to make CdR less useful, even - Ashe's Q does not interact with CdR, at all, while Kalista's E resets on killing something with it. The auto-attack focused ADCs, Vayne Twitch Jinx Tristana , also do not build Essence Reaver - as the utility ADCs, most of their damage comes from auto-attacks, and hence getting CdR is less relevant for their purpose.

The answer to the question is hence: A superhigh CdR item is possible for AD carries, due to it being mainly a different way to increase their sustained damage, not distorting their primary purpose. The item can exist, as long as it does offer a significant enough distinction between the two ways of sustained damage open to ADCs: By using either abilities and medium-high damage autos or superhigh damage auto-attacks.

Why don't have mages an item that gives both high AP and high CdR?

This goes squarely towards point 1: Because you cannot have your cake and eat it, too.

Generally speaking, mages fall into one (or two, at max) categories:

  • Burst mages: Burst mages have a simple pattern: Point toward target, roll face over QWER (+item actives), hope target dies. Or, more simply put: They excel at making squishy targets disappear, and tankier targets take a hefty chunk of damage.
  • Poke mages: Poke mages excel at damaging enemies from long range, poking them down to drive them off an objective (zoning) / weakening them enough to make engaging actual combat a losing affair or allowing allies to move in for the clean-up.
  • Control mages: Control mages excel at controlling the flow of a situation. They usually bring abilities that can disrupt the flow of the enemy team and/or aid your team in the fight.
  • Sustained damge mages: These mages excel at dealing a lot of magic damage over longer time periods, at the cost of being somewhat less focused on burst damage. Their damage profile is actually the most similar to AD carries.

Making the choice between high CdR and high AP a forking road serves as an important decision point regarding their purpose in the game for two of these roles: Poke mages have the choice between poking more frequently (offering more leeway to miss shots) and poking harder (making missed shots more costly). Giving them both high CdR and high damage makes poke mages rather...unappealing to play against, to say the least. Remember ol' nuclear spear Nidalee? Control mages have the choice between more control and more burst. Giving them access to high CdR and high AP without a tradeoff makes them burst mages in addition to their role as supreme battlefield controllers.

Giving burst mages or assassin access to high CdR and high damage simply makes them lose the balance between the reliability of their killing pattern and the window during which their power is limited.

Now, the only category of mage who would benefit from a high AP/high CdR item without shifting their intended purpose/paradigm are the sustained damage mages. Or would they? League currently has four champions who could be classified primarily as sustained damage mages: Cassiopeia Karthus Azir Ryze Out of these four champions, two have high kit-intrinsic CdR (Cassiopeia Ryze with 25% and 30%, respectively). One (Azir ) benefits from both CdR and the other multiplier stat, attack speed, for his sustained damage, which means that it is possible that he can build item 3115 - which, btw, gives the highest unconditional AS in the game. And the fourth (Karthus ) does not benefit as much from CdR, as one of his sustained damage tools is a toggle - and the other already has a 1 second CD with a 0.25 second non-moving casting time. This casting time and the fact that the toggle is person-centered mean that he does not benefit too much from CdR, similarily to an ADC with too high an AS, as he needs to move and stay close to the enemy he wants to damage.

Wow, what a long post. Sorry about that wall.

I wrote it to convince you that there is more to a good item set regarding CdR than just: Which combinations of stats give accessible 40% CdR to everyone?

DeathBurst1 votes

Thanks for the detailed answer :) Your distinction between sustained damage versus burst and their respective relations with CDR is particularly interesting, and something I wasn't consciously aware of. I had realized that there was some connections, that's why I separated Assassins from Mages, but I couldn't formulate it as explicitly as you did.

But I didn't need convincing about the fact that a good item-set shouldn't simply give easy CDR cap to everyone. Actually, I even said it explicitly myself:

  • Damage dealer classes (Assassins, ADC, mages) should have to make a meaningful trade-off between full damage and full CDR builds
  • Utility classes (Tanks and especially Supports) should have easy ways to reach the CDR cap, since it's their main scaling stat.
  • Fighters may have access to optimal full builds with 40% CDR, but they shouldn't be able to get it early in the game, given the importance of their skills in lane trades.

The item set I suggest does NOT provide easy 40% to AD Assassins, and even if I didn't find a satisfying solution yet, I explicitly said it should not give easy 40% CDR to AP Assassins/Mages.

The main divergence between your analysis and my assumptions concerns ADC. You argue that they can have easy access to CDR without it being a problem (since they are sustained damage already), whereas I said they should be as restricted as Assassins and Mages. So I guess my next question is: ADC can have access to CDR, but should they? Would Ez, Lucian or Corky be unplayable without so easy access to CDR? If this is the case, couldn't their base CD be reduced instead? There is also the perception issue, where even if an item set is balanced, it may look unfair and provoke negative reactions from the playerbase (like it is the case currently).

ProfDrDeath1 votes

ADC can have access to CDR, but should they? Would Ez, Lucian or Corky be unplayable without so easy access to CDR? If this is the case, couldn't their base CD be reduced instead? There is also the perception issue, where even if an item set is balanced, it may look unfair and provoke negative reactions from the playerbase (like it is the case currently).

It is less of an "Would they be unplayable without access to CdR", but more like "Decreased base CDs would make them too strong in lane".

Since decreasing their ability cooldown is aligned with their primary purpose, acquiring CdR is mostly a scaling tool - limiting their power in the early stages of the game and unlocking it as the game goes.

Whereas for mages and assassins, instead of primarily increasing their strengths, itemizing for CdR decreases their periods of weakness. And it is not even that mages should not have easy access to CdR - they should not have access to full CdR and high damage at the same time.

Even in the current game, mages have fairly good access to full CdR: Three 20%-CdR items (item 3174 item 3165 item 3115 ) and 3 10% CdR items (item 3100 item 3152 item 3158 ) are there for mages to take. It is just that none of those are 100+ AP items, as well, or are restricting their user towards certain patterns to make full use (WotA, Lichbane and Nashor's all support a more sustained or closer-ranged combat style). You can take CdR in runes, as well - but this again has tradeoffs: You'll either trade MR or AP for it, and you either need another 10% (flat) or not have 40% for most of the game (scaling).

DeathBurst1 votes

It's not honest to say that Mages can get to 40% if they are willing to not take a 100+ AP item instead. People don't take Nashor, not because it has less than 100 AP, but because it has wasted stats that you can't use on most Mages. Same goes for Lichbane, WotA. Same about stacking Athenes and Morello: you waste a lot of gold on redundant mana regen.

The only good trade-off (item-wise) is Lucidity vs Sorc. There, you really chose between more CDR or more Damage, and you don't waste any stats in either case. The trade-off in Runes between AP/MR vs CDR is also an interesting choice.

But saying that "well, don't go full damage and you can take WotA" for someone that cannot use the SpellVamp, it's underwhelming and not fair. You should be ready to take trade-off, you shouldn't be forced to waste gold on useless stats.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

But saying that "well, don't go full damage and you can take WotA" for someone that cannot use the SpellVamp, it's underwhelming and not fair. You should be ready to take trade-off, you shouldn't be forced to waste gold on useless stats.

Ah, ok. I can go with you on that. Another option in the 10% department would be useful.

I think that the game can ultimately stand to get another 80-90 AP/10% CdR item as an option. However, there is the question what other stats/effects said item could have:

  • Probably a modicum of flat mana. Flat mana synergizes well with Athene's (scaling on missing mana) and Seraph's (scaling on mana both in passive and active)
  • It should be in 2500 to 3000 gold range, and fairly slot efficient.
  • Which group of mages are the intended primary users? I'd suggest control mages, tbh. That would then make a soft CC effect appealing, but nothing with major damage.

Maybe an item like this?

Shard of True Ice

Glacial Shroud + Needlessly Large Rod

~80 AP, ~25 Armor, 10% CdR, ~300 mana Unique active: Shard of Ice: Launches a shard of true ice in an arc. After a short delay, the ground around the target point is covered in ice, slowing enemy's MS in the zone. (Very similar to IBG - in fact, it could use the same ice animation and slow mechanic).

DeathBurst1 votes

{quoted}

Ah, ok. I can go with you on that. Another option in the 10% department would be useful.

If you look at the big picture that is more or less what I was trying to achieve. I added some considerations about powerspike timings, so I provided more choices, but I stated that it should not be possible to stack these different items (even if I didn't find a good solution to implement that). I think that ultimately, a good spot would be: 20% in a core, first buy item + 10% in a secondary item. No easy access to 40% without a noticeable trade-off, like Lucidity Boots or CDR Runes. Some Mages would have the possibility to trade the 20%CDR core item for a RoA or Archangel for more damage/survivability, and that would make an interesting ecosystem.

Which group of mages are the intended primary users? I'd suggest control mages, tbh. That would then make a soft CC effect appealing, but nothing with major damage.

I was trying to work CDR into existing items where it makes sense, but if we create a completely new item with its own effect, it should be targeted at champions that can buy none of Nashor/Lichbane/WotA. So no sustained damage, and no use for auto-attacks. Your suggestion seems to fit the bill. Though, with the recent affair of FQC being used in mid lane for the CC it provides, even on non-control mages, I would be careful.

Sightless661 votes

ADC can have access to CDR, but should they? Would Ez, Lucian or Corky be unplayable without so easy access to CDR?

They probably should have access to CDR. They don't become unplayable without CDR, but they do become much more like every other AD carry. AD carries are very prone to having extremely similar gameplay becuase their main function (right clicking for sustained damage) is a relatively similar mechanic across carries and can easily be more important than any actual kit differences. Allowing for CDR builds creates differentiation between ability-focused carries and pure right-clicking carries, where that difference might otherwise be much smaller. That's a good thing. Making champions feel different and letting them have different goals and playstyles is a very desirable outcome.

The thing is, it's a less valuable stat for them, so they have to have a higher access to it if it is actually going to be a real choice. Having to get a 20% CDR item, lucidity boots and runes isn't an option. We've had that choice in the past, and it absolutely doesn't work. It works for other classes because they put a much higher value on CDR, and can actually afford to give up other core stats to get it. If you force an ADC to give up that much dps to get CDR, then they won't ever choose to. It's not a viable decision.

If you're going to do that, it would be much better to completely write CDR off as an ADC stat and not have the items at all. That prevents it from being a noob trap like the old CDR ADC options always were.

There is also the perception issue, where even if an item set is balanced, it may look unfair and provoke negative reactions from the playerbase

If possible, that should be dealt with by directly addressing the perception. Perceptions can be changed. If it has a basis in reality, then a better solution would be increasing the access to CDR for other classes, not making it inaccessible to AD carries.

DeathBurst1 votes

No, as ProfDrDeath explained, most Mages and a large number of Assassins cannot get easy access to CDR for fundamental reasons.

Your first point is completely valid, though. Having a max-CDR build available for caster-oriented ADC is a good thing for diversifying the game. I'm still skeptical that the current Essence Reaver was the good way to do it. Why tie CDR and Crit Chance? If you are caster-oriented, you should auto-attack a lot less, and you shouldn't need Crit.

What would be a full build for caster-ADC in an hypothetical world where Essence Reaver doesn't tie Crit and CDR? Essence Reaver, Triforce, Lucidity Boots (because you don't need AS, so why not), Death's Dance and some raw AD items like Youmuu and Bloodthirster? Even without Essence Reaver, there is already 40% CDR in this build.

Also, Death's Dance passive is good for AD-caster, but it should probably apply ALL Lifesteal to physical damage, not just the 15% pseudo-lifesteal from Death's Dance (like Ravenous applies all lifesteal to the cleave'd targets, not just the lifesteal from Ravenous).

PapaGreg211 votes

Sunfire cape should have 10% cooldown.

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