Playing Karthus is like spinning a roulette wheel.

Astôlfo·May 17, 2016·7 votes·1,086 views

"Oh boy, I wonder how many champions completely ruin my ult in this game!"

EDIT: Yay for downvotes from ignorant people.

49 Comments

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20163 votes

Except for the Soraka comment, so far the people who have replied haven’t been able to grasp what the op means...

So, let me explain it for you further.

These are the MANY champs that have ways to avoid/negate or at the very least seriously hamper a Karthus ult for themselves and/or their teammates...

Soraka: Heals entire team before ult kills them. Bard: Stasis for teammates. Also, small heals if need be. Lulu: Massive heal + shields. Nami: Heals Sona: Heals Fizz: Trickster/Untargetable Shaco: Ult/Untargetable (Yes, it can be timed easily) Alistar: Small heals and his ult for himself Yi: Meditate or time Q just right on some minions/cs/jungle/whatever Karma: Nice shields & R shields for entire team Morg: Shields Galio: Great shield he can use for himself or teammate/Also could ult if necessary, but with his MR generally he’s fine regardless Aatrox: His passive Anivia: Passive Annie: Her newest shield in patch 6.9 renders him pretty useless vs her with his ult unless she escaped with like 100 hp only. Blitz: Passive Braum: Defensive mode Diana: Shield Mundo: Ult if desperate, but let’s be real, Karth isn’t getting past his life regen. Ekko: Ult & Shield Fiddle: Lifedrain a minion/jungle/anything Janna: Shields, Heals for entire team. Leona: Pop her shield for massive MR Kayle: Ult & Heal Lissandra: Ult Kindred: Ult Lee: Shield Lux: Shield Malphite: Passive Maokai: Ult Malz: His new ridiculous passive Nasus: Ult Naut: Shield Nunu: Q a minion/jungle Nocturne: Shield Sivir: Shield Oriana: Shield Riven: Shield Renek: Ult Shen: Ult/Shield Singed: Ult Taric: Ult, Shield, Heal. Tahm: Shield & Eating teammates Skarner: Shield Swain: Ult to regen Sion: Shield Thresh: Shield Tryn: Ult (although to be fair on this one, Karth is a good counter to a fleeing Tryn after a fight who ulted already) Udyr: Shield Urgot: Shield or even ult Viktor: Shield Vlad: Pool/Massive life leech WW: Leech life off some minions/jungle/champs Zac: Passive Zilean: Ult

I’m honestly probably even missing some. This is in addition to the fact that when you see a Karth in game, most smart people who can fit a zhonyas into their build, will. It’s not like it’s an uncommon item. Also, Guardian Angel (another decently common item late game), Maw (another decently common item), and Banshee’s Veil (I’d say the rarest bought of the items I listed, but when I’m doing extremely well with Karth in a game, I do notice people will buy this).

So, there you have it and now understand what the OP meant.

Kai GuyMay 17, 20161 votes

I started going thru and providing counter arguments for each champ you listed, but it got redundant really quick. So here is the long ass TLDR summery. Any thing that provides more effective health to a champion, (heal,shield,%reduction, MR steroid, etc) Should be accounted for before you tap R. It is unrelated related to enemy team if you have bad mechanics. We don't count every champ with a shield or heal as a counter/good option to deal with karth because every champion in the game has the option via summoner 21 summoner 7 . You listed 55 champions, over 35 of them should be discounted from this list if one assumes decent karth mechanics. Also RekSai does not have a shield in her kit and her passive only generates 450 hp over 5 second at level 18. Next lets remove the idea that a passive on a cd comparable to recall is a counter. If their hp was low enough that you could R for the kill but you waited 6 or more seconds? That is on you. Malphite Malzahar Garen (all have trigger times even at max levels longer then the channel for karthus. malph and malz will spend most the game being able to recall faster then their passive level 16 for malz and 13 for malph, the argument that any ability that takes longer then recall to trigger is silly and thus should be removed from your list.

Any champion whos able to survive but has to self CC to do it (bard + revive passive trio + zill) This would be an issue of mechanics. You trigger their ability intentionally so teammates can catch up, or because you want them to be on cool down for a fight more then you want your R to be up for that fight. I would personally remove them from list. Vlad,Renekton,Ekko,Nasus are all fairly long cds, and its clear when they have used them in a fight so you should be able to know if they have it up or not and thus its on you to not waste your god dam ulti.

Spell shields, invul, and un-target skills can be irritating. long as there's no teammates to try and trigger them in advance then you don't really have much to do unless your positive its on cd, thankfully they tend to have a long cd and communication or just watching a fight will let ya know if you can R. A great deal more frustrating becuase they are easier to use to 100% invalidate your ulti. Pending on the CD i would say mechanics, thou short cds (fizz) require an exceptionally high level of Karthus timeing and awareness to the point even decent mechanics are not going to be enough.

Tahm. can protect self and ally. dont waste R on him or if some one is near, 2 non tahm champions low enough and your good, thou he will prevent the double.

Shen. Global ulti, instant cast. Sheild is large. Similar to tahm you can expect him to deny ya and thus save ulti for 2 dudes or if he is on cd.

Soraka, this chicks a nightmare counter for karthus r. her base heal is only 150/250/350 with .55 scaling but it scales up 50% when folks are under 40% hp to be 225 / 375 / 525 with .825 ap scaling. this is 25 less damage then karthus bace rates 250 / 400 / 550 and he has .6 ap. Its instant and can be fired off in responce to his telegraphed ulti. Additionally its on a lower cool down. Pretty much you have to blow ulti to just do damage early, wait for her to cast R, Or wait till shes dead. Not fun for a karth.

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20163 votes

Incorrect.

Kai GuyMay 17, 20162 votes

Elaborate please, currently i am unable to provide any clarity on anything i did not explain well. Plus i cant argue a point you do not inform me of where you disagree, also wont be able to correct any mistakes made. For example i pointed out that Rek Sai does not have a shield when you have her listed as such.

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20161 votes

Just because the list is redundant, does not make it any less of a burden for Karth players. If anything, you can blame Riot for adding too many redundant shield skills.

You’re right about Reksai. I added her as having a shield and she doesn’t. I never play Reksai and incorrectly wrote that. Unfortunately, as you can clearly see, the list is quite long and merely taking off Reksai does not suddenly sway the favor for Karth. The majority of champs still have ways to deal with his ult.

Granted, not everything is equal. There is still a possibility of breaking through shields and still killing them, if they are EXTREMELY low health.

As for ult trades and item activations being worth a Karth ult, that is completely wrong in all but the rarest of instances. Karth ult at lvl 3 is 160 seconds. Yes, 160! It is one of the longest cooldowns in the game. In fact, a lvl 1 Ult is 200 seconds! So trading for ults or cooldowns is never worth it unless there is some rare occurrence that I honestly can’t even think of, but I will concede the point that it could possibly be theroetically useful in some rare and niche instance. So, no I will not remove those from the list.

I didn’t come in here to argue about Karth ult. I honestly think it’s at a fine place where it is. It’s very very satisfying when it’s used correctly and as you can see from my long list, there are enough counters in place that it’s not like there are no ways to survive it like some ults.

I honestly just was curious what this thread was about because I enjoy Karth and not many do these days. Then, I read the OP’s post and laughed because it’s so 100% true. Then, I saw the comments in response to the OP being things like...

“Don’t ult in plain sight...?”

and I thought to myself...

...”how are these people not getting what the OP clearly means?”

So, I just decided to explain it.

I’m not saying his ult needs to be changed or buffed or anything, but you also cannot deny that there are MANY MANY counters to it.

Elite4RunnerMay 17, 20162 votes

Or use your ult as or just before your allies begin the engagement. You may not get kills, but you will get assists when you aren't even there. If you have item 1082 or item 3041 , free stacks

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20164 votes

Used to be a good option long ago with the old Mejai’s, but with the -10 stacks every death, it’s hard to work well on Karthus. His entire kit except his Ult, encourages him to go head first into fights and expect to die.

AutomatisMay 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Used to be a good option long ago with the old Mejai’s, but with the -10 stacks every death, it’s hard to work well on Karthus. His entire kit except his Ult, encourages him to go head first into fights and expect to die.

Nope that's backwards. His basic kit doesn't want him to die because people can move out of the defile zone and Q range. His ult wants him to die because you can ignore its exorbitant mana cost and the channel can't be interrupted.

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20163 votes

no.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20162 votes

Uh, you don't just go in alone, obviously. You go into a teamfight to set up constant AOE and a massive MR reducing/slowing wall, and if you die, so be it, because you can keep contributing for a few more seconds. The only thing backwards is your understanding.

AutomatisMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Uh, you don't just go in alone, obviously. You go into a teamfight to set up constant AOE and a massive MR reducing/slowing wall, and if you die, so be it, because you can keep contributing for a few more seconds. The only thing backwards is your understanding.

Lol nothing any of you have said has gone against what I said. I never said you go in alone. Lmao this guy.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20163 votes

Uh, you must be incapable of thinking.

If it's the middle of a heated teamfight or you initiate with your team, they're not going to be able to escape. Karthus is good at suicide diving into enemy team, I nor anyone else ever said that's the only thing he can/has to do. And I said your understanding is backwards because if Karthus didn't want to die, why would he literally have a passive to sustain him after he does die? And people aren't just going to walk out of your Defile/Q range without either taking damage or burning some movement ability. And let's just pretend no one takes Exhaust to use before you die, and let's just pretend the slowing MR-reduction wall doesn't exist. And as for the ult, you could just… do it somewhere safe while you're alive…? The mana cost is hardly exorbitant. A somewhat large amount, but if you're building right and playing smart, it really shouldn't be a problem.

The irony of this situation. But sure, pull whatever other assumptions you have out of your ass. While you're there at it, pull your head out of there too. "lmao this guy"

AutomatisMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Uh, you must be incapable of thinking.

If it's the middle of a heated teamfight or you initiate with your team, they're not going to be able to escape. Karthus is good at suicide diving into enemy team, I nor anyone else ever said that's the only thing he can/has to do. And I said your understanding is backwards because if Karthus didn't want to die, why would he literally have a passive to sustain him after he does die? And as for the ult, you could just… do it somewhere safe while you're alive…? The mana cost is hardly exorbitant. A somewhat large amount, but if you're building right and playing smart, it really shouldn't be a problem.

The irony of this situation. But sure, pull whatever other assumptions you have out of your ass. While you're there at it, pull your head out of there too. "lmao this guy"

You're the one assuming that a champion with a slow can keep people in range posthumously in the League of Mobility.
You're the one assuming that Karthus can somehow "ult safely while alive" and still somehow contribute to the teamfight with his short range Defile. You're the one assuming that having an undeath passive means they want to die, you must be a great kog'maw player (thats an assumption btw).

And if you don't think that 100 / 150 / 200 is exorbitant, the most expensive and outdated mana cost in the game btw, then there really is no hope for this discussion.

I'm done running around in circles with kids from the gameplay board.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20161 votes

facepalm You're the one assuming Karthus will keep them in range by himself forever apparently. You won't keep them in range. But unless they burn some movement ability, they're not going to get away unscathed either.

You're the one assuming he apparently has to ult while within Q range. Gee, maybe, I dunno, you could ult before you go in or back off a little?

You're the one assuming I said he wants to die. All I said was your assumption he doesn't want to die is incorrect. Of course he'd rather not die. But he's still useful after dying, for a few seconds at least.

Not like typical items on him are ROA/Rylai's/Archangel's/etc. I meant relatively exorbitant to what he would have if you played it smart. But at this point I don't have confidence you can do anything smart.

I'm done trying to teach things like you.

Elite4RunnerMay 17, 20162 votes

^ and not to mention the fact that many of the things you mentioned are high value ultimates. By putting them on cool down Karthus and his team gains an advantage by eliminating those as counters for a decent amount of time

AstôlfoMay 17, 20163 votes

Oh no, they're also all a lot lower CD than Karthus'. And just because Karthus ulted doesn't mean multiple enemy ults need to be used. A lot aren't even ults. But sure, nice fail at logic there.

Elite4RunnerMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Oh no, they're also all a lot lower CD than Karthus'. And just because Karthus ulted doesn't mean multiple enemy ults need to be used. A lot aren't even ults. But sure, nice fail at logic there.

Fail at logic? You mean you're trying to convince everyone that Karthus should have an ultimate that can't be countered and we are the ones who are failing at logic? Lol okay. Well you have fun with your little dream world that doesn't and wont exist in the game and I'll just keep playing in a way that works.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20163 votes

Uh, no, where did I say that? I was just saying that playing Karthus is like playing roulette because of a lot of champs countering him. It was just a jab at the humor/irritation of the situation. But sure, just pull assumptions out of your ass to try and supplement your shitty argument.

I sincerely pity you and your sad existence.

QuephaMay 17, 20162 votes

Oh no your ult cost multiple ult cooldowns on the enemy team what an awful trade.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20163 votes

Oh no, they're also all a lot lower CD than Karthus'. And just because Karthus ulted doesn't mean multiple enemy ults need to be used. A lot aren't even ults. But sure, nice fail at logic there.

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20161 votes

You can’t honestly think that trading a Karth ult for an ult from another player that can be used 3+ times in the duration that Karth ult is down, is a worthwhile trade, right? If you didn’t know that his ult cooldown is 200 seconds at rank 1 ult, dropping to only 160 seconds at rank 3, then now you do. You’re welcome. summoner 31

QuephaMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You can’t honestly think that trading a Karth ult for an ult from another player that can be used 3+ times in the duration that Karth ult is up, is a worthwhile trade, right? If you didn’t know that his ult cooldown is 200 seconds at rank 1 ult, dropping to only 160 seconds at rank 3, then now you do. You’re welcome.

Did you know that Karthus's ult targets up to five enemies and they all need to do something about it?

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20161 votes

Did you know that only those low on health need to “do something about it”?

QuephaMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Did you know that only those low on health need to “do something about it”?

Damage is useless and enemies in a fight can afford to save their cooldowns for later, sure.

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20161 votes

What kind a bad Karth player ults during a team fight? After yes, not during. It’s a channel that can be interrupted easily and you aren’t helping your team at all during the fight. If you ult, you’re actually doing less damage than if you were to engage and be part of the fight.

QuephaMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What kind a bad Karth player ults during a team fight? After yes, not during. It’s a channel that can be interrupted easily and you aren’t helping your team at all during the fight. If you ult, you’re actually doing less damage than if you were to engage and be part of the fight.

after a team fight after a team fight where the enemy had to use their cooldowns or they would have lost the team fight really hard taric's ult doesn't have a 10 second cooldown

ISpeakJapaneseMay 17, 20161 votes

What world do you live in where every single team fight is an even matchup and every single character uses every cool down at their disposable with no possible chance of anything else to counter Karth ult? Please tell me, so I can take my Karth to those games!

Rand0mH3r0XMay 17, 20161 votes

Don't ult in plain sight...?

AstôlfoMay 17, 20163 votes

Uh, how does that have anything to do with it?

Rand0mH3r0XMay 17, 20161 votes

If you move karthus during his channel, he gets canceled. The same goes for Fiddlesticks, and is most apparent with Aatrox.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20161 votes

I thought Karthus can't move during his ult? Or do you mean being moved by the enemy? And that's not at all what I meant by being countered. I meant shields/heals/invulnerabilities/etc being frequent as well as items.

Rand0mH3r0XMay 17, 20161 votes

Interrupts can cancel Karthus. Like Blitzcrank pull, Shyvana Ultimate, or even Shen Taunt.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20162 votes

Yeah but no intelligent Karthus player would ult in easy range of those.

Nanuk PihoqahiakMay 17, 20161 votes

This is also under the assumption that they're saving these abilities for his ultimate. If you're mid and you see a potential to get a double kill bot, they're likely already fighting your bot lane and have expended their kits.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20162 votes

Uh, just about every ability that counters his ult is on a lower CD than his, and a lot are also not ults, meaning they're literally only on a cooldown of probably a few seconds by mid/lategame.

Nanuk PihoqahiakMay 17, 20162 votes

You're missing my point. If an enemy bot lane just won a fight, they're still on cooldown. Heck, if he drops the ult during the fight, it gives you serious pressure. It doesn't always have to be about killing the enemy. Sometimes the pressure it puts out is enough.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20162 votes

Uh yeah, the pressure it puts out every 200/180/160s vs just about every other ability that counters it while still being able to contribute to teamfights as well with even a far shorter cooldown on some, because a lot of those aren't even ultimates. Mhm.

Nanuk PihoqahiakMay 17, 20161 votes

Hey. I suppose that's why Karthus boasts a terrible winrate, right? Wait a second. He doesn't. In fact, he usually floats between 52-56 percent. Do you honestly think it'd be balanced for it to have a lower cooldown?

AstôlfoMay 17, 20162 votes

Uh yeah sure ignore literally every other factor that contributed to said winrate. Nice fail.

Elite4RunnerMay 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nanuk Pihoqahiak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JoYuvEAQ,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-05-17T11:06:41.915+0000)

You're missing my point. If an enemy bot lane just won a fight, they're still on cooldown. Heck, if he drops the ult during the fight, it gives you serious pressure. It doesn't always have to be about killing the enemy. Sometimes the pressure it puts out is enough.

They clearly have no idea what teamwork is and think that Karthus deserves an ultimate that can't be countered. We aren't going to teach them how the game works, and I honestly don't care to try anymore.

Cheers to you my friend

AstôlfoMay 17, 20162 votes

You also clearly have no idea what you're talking about and had to resort to petty assumptions. I never once stated he needs an uncounterable ult, nor do I advocate for one. I was just pointing out some of the irritation/humor with the situation being as such. I pity you and your sad life. Cheers, buddy.

Friendly RamMay 17, 20161 votes

Nah the roulette wheel has how many champs day your ult can ruin. Nothing causes rage like accidentally killing the enemy jungler after he grabbed blue.

VvVVvVMay 17, 20161 votes

If im support and I see a Karthus on other team before my pick...I always pick Soraka and try to save ult just for when i see his :)

GaleWinUnleashedMay 17, 20161 votes

Perhaps you could learn to use his other abilities more effectively? Karthus isn't just an R button.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20161 votes

Uh, obviously? I'm saying I just found it a bit amusing/sad that his iconic ability is so meaningless nowadays.

IcyPepperMay 17, 20161 votes

EDIT: Yay for downvotes from people who have opinions that differ from mine

FTFY

AstôlfoMay 17, 20161 votes

Except most of them don't even have valid reasons, sooo... but w/e you say, right? ;)

IcyPepperMay 17, 20161 votes

Your OP gives no valid reasoning either. Yes, Karthus is countered by some champions. Big whoop. So is everyone else.

And there's several comments on this thread now, if you want to ignore them that doesn't make them the ignorant ones here.

AstôlfoMay 17, 20161 votes

???

The thread was just to point out the fact it's sort of sad/amusing how pretty much his one iconic ability is now more or less useless. Between long cooldowns and literally dozens of champions that can easily get around it, as well as just various items, it's pretty bad. But yeah, good job completely misunderstanding. And what does having several comments have to do with ignorance? lol