Yet another stupid idea. This time regarding Fiora balance

Malicious Metal·Jun 27, 2017·31 votes·1,489 views

#Remove her AoE heal

Now, before you get your pitchforks hear me out. Fiora is the scourge of top lane, she's extremely oppressive and you feel like you can't really do anything against her. A trait she shares with other skirmishers like Tryndamere.

But unlike them she has a ton of team utility with that AoE heal of hers. Honestly, if we were to balance around her being the "Grand duelist" I'd rather see her ult heal gone so she's at least an awful team fighter in exchange for the best 1v1 kit in the game.

Because I honestly feel there's not going to be an elegant solution to nerfing her.

37 Comments

AnonagonJun 27, 201711 votes

I feel like you greatly overestimate the actual value Fiora's ult has as a team healing effect. Its pretty rare that a Fiora is able to do a successful ult that also results in her getting significant value out of the heal for anyone but herself. Most of the time when there are other teammates around Fiora's ult either will be unsuccessful, it will be a short duration one, or it won't be that useful due to positioning.

I think that even if Fiora's ult was as powerful a team utility tool as you claim, it'd be something worth keeping in her kit, and it wouldn't be the source of Fiora's current power. Fiora is often smashing lanes well before she even gets her ultimate, so to suggest that the ultimate is somehow her problem feels counter-intuitive.

THE RlVER KlNGJun 27, 20171 votes

Why is it that she already gets healing from proccing Vitals and scales extremely well with lifesteal, and then she also gets a big AoE heal for hitting you four times?

There is no worse feeling in League than being up on Fiora 1-2 kills and she just stomps you at Level 6 because your literally cannot kill her for all the healing she is doing, or even winning at first and then she gets her ult heal and goes back up to full.

Her ult heal is fucking stupid and if Riot won't nerf her damage or mobility or W then I'm all for completely nixing the effect. You'd think the 'reward' for proccing all 4 Vitals would be good as just having done 40% or more of a targets health in true damage (on top o her AA's, Q's, and E proc), not also getting a big teamwide heal for it as well.

AirKingNeoJun 27, 20171 votes

Vital healing isn't large amounts and only matters early-mid game.

THE RlVER KlNGJun 27, 20172 votes

It's healing, on top of all the lifesteal she buys (Ravenous, DD). She also gets a free out with a movement speed steroid, and since the Q prioritizes Vitals she's one of the few melee champions that can poke you out of lane with little to no risk, what with the uncounterable damage and healing and movement speed.

Skirmishers I can deal with. Obnoxious draintanking on a character that isn't Aatrox or WW, who have weaknesses to compensate their healing (most notably greatly inferior mobility), I cannot.

DoozkuJun 27, 201711 votes

If there's one thing that I don't want them to get rid of, its the heal. Sure, it can be annoying and frustrating, but its what lets her do aggressive dives with her jg in lane, and its the only real good thing about her teamfight. Yes, she's a split pusher, but Riot generally wants these champions to be somewhat useful in teamfights and their dueling power should suffer a bit as a result. The problem is, of course, that her dueling power does not suffer. Her early game needs to be nerfed heavily, and her marks need to be given more counterplay in a fight. They are a mini-game for the Fiora only, being near a wall is not a real counterplay when she ults onto you and gets 3 other marks to pop on you, not to mention being near a wall completely limits your mobility options and generally if she fights you, you really want go back towards your tower, not towards a wall.

RainfallJun 27, 20171 votes

if she loses the heal they would have to put an ad ratio on the true damage of her ult instead of just flat values. -fiora goes 1/0,you proceed to look at your cs from 90000000 units away because her R is up.-

SpoofghoulJun 27, 20174 votes

You can still hit the vitals with your Q if someone is next to a wall

The auto hit detection is pretty bonkers with that Q

AhristocatsJun 27, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JngE4tGG,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-27T02:51:51.500+0000)

But unlike them she has a ton of team utility with that AoE heal of hers.

that's tryndamere issue, not fiora issue

any champ in this game needs utility

and fiora's problem atm is her early game, and her attack speed slow, not ult

rework trundleJun 27, 20175 votes

Or have it heal her only?

HaIlMonitorJun 27, 20172 votes

This is a good idea because at least it doesnt heal her, and blow up a whole team... Ekko

rework trundleJun 27, 20171 votes

This is only an idea, it can also be to remove her crippling AS slow, or have her Q reset on vitals only (which rewards the good Fioras but kills the meta slaves).

Critmaster GarenJun 27, 20175 votes

what would you replace it with though?

just removing it would clearly trash her. this would either mean youd have to put more power into the rest of her kit, which makes her an even stronger duellist, or youd have to replace it with something else.

fiora right now is already pretty garbage when it comes to midgame teamfights since its much easier to peel and kill her in a 5v5 scenario than in a 1v1. removing her heal would mean removing her only incentive to join up with her team for larger fights.

youd basically turn her into a splitpush bot like Tryndamere

GayFluffyUnicornJun 28, 20171 votes

No need to replace it. Remove it. See how she is doing, then think about buffs.

Critmaster GarenJun 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No need to replace it. Remove it. See how she is doing, then think about buffs.

have you even read my comment? if you were to remove it, it would mean buffing possible multiple other parts of her kit.

which means anything between her q, her w or passive. which means shed become a stronger duellist than now.

WalkingInACircleJun 27, 20173 votes

How about:

Remove the sustain on her passive
Increase the mana cost on Q.
Remove the cooldown reduction for damaging with Q.
Remove any effect from failed ripostes and raise its mana cost too.

And let her keep her absurd %hp true damage as her thing while stilling being very mobile and she can keep her heal if she succeeds at ult.

RàinbowJun 27, 20173 votes

Totally for getting rid of the heal and ultimate altogether.

I want to play Fiora as that fierce and dangerous woman as she was pre-rework. No, I don't care for the old ult back (although I'd be down for it), but something that shows she's coming for your head. An execution ult (Riven, Rek-Sai, Jinx) would be something I'd absolutely LOVE to see on her.

A short range, targeted dash where she blinks/dashes to her enemy target and deal dmg based on their missing health. Just please bring back the look of her old ult, at least?

CarteeeerJun 27, 20172 votes

it doesnt make sense thematically or gameplay wise (not the vital part but the aoe heal) , and really does need a change

ModKnightsKemplarJun 27, 20172 votes

That's the thing in her kit that I think most everyone went "eh?" when they first saw it.

I mean, I can see what they were going for. I remember when it first happened and they said they wanted her to have SOME kind of interaction with her team, or she wouldn't really belong in a team game. This makes sense to me. BUT, the AoE heal maybe wasn't the best execution on that thought. Someday, with a hypothetical Fiora rework, I'd like to see them try something else.

Can we brainstorm that? What could you possibly put in place instead that still contributed some team utility?

Variks the LoyalJun 27, 20171 votes

Hard to say, but we can wonder - does she necessarily need team utility? A lot of top laners do fine just without it, ones like Darius, Renekton, etc. Although you could argue they trade team utility for durability.

Something similar to Jayce's Acceleration Gate would work fine. Something small, but situationally effective. Perhaps a small boost of movement speed for allies when she triggers a vital?

One thing I think that Riot will lament is the loss of a reward for hitting all 4 vitals. While it can be said that having 4 vitals to pop is in and of itself enough of a reward, there might just not be enough 'umph' to it to make it feel right, if that makes sense. An AoE burst of speed here might work as well.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 27, 20172 votes

The four vitals thing never really expressed the kind of skill I wanted to see anyway. She has so many dashes, it never feels like you have a chance to deny her in a real duel. And there can be a reward that isn't an AoE heal, of course. You would have to replace it with something.

DeathBurstJun 27, 20172 votes

but we can wonder - does she necessarily need team utility?

Yes. ALL champs need at least SOME utility. You can't make champs unique and balanceable only with damage.

A lot of top laners do fine just without it, ones like Darius, Renekton, etc.

Excuse me, but what exactly do you call Darius's grab or Renekton's stun? Not to mention that their base tankyness is much higher than Fiora's, and that beyond damage, if bad comes to worse, they can always serve as meat shields, which IS team utility. Fiora can't.

Variks the LoyalJun 27, 20171 votes

I wouldn't call them team utility. They are about as selfish as CC can possibly be. Just CC by itself isn't specifically team utility. team utility is a buff or effect that benefits your teammates like Jayce's Acceleration Gate, or Kled's ult trail, or Sivir's ultimate in general. Some of it can be lesser than others, like Morgana's Black Shield or Tahm's allied Devour, or some of it is more 'offensive' team utility, like Twisted Fate's ult reveal.

But every champion certainly does not have team utility, and that's okay, because champions are different. Talon, Garen, Zed, Lucian, Draven, etc, are just a few that are made to be selfish champions with little utility to offer their teammates.

Beastyboy387IVCJun 27, 20172 votes

She just needs number changes jeez. She is only strong because of changes that indirectly affected her like fervor, deaths dance, and other champions being nerfed. The meta just favors her. I don't know why so many people want to remove stuff and gut her. Her kit is fine. I say just nerf her early game and maybe late if necessary. Let RIot nerf her like how they nerfed Darius in 7.2: Nerf early and leave late about the same. Or maybe, just maybe NERF DEATHS DANCE and then see if she needs nerfs.

Critmaster GarenJun 28, 20172 votes

{quoted}

She just needs number changes jeez. She is only strong because of changes that indirectly affected her like fervor, deaths dance, and other champions being nerfed. The meta just favors her. I don't know why so many people want to remove stuff and gut her. Her kit is fine. I say just nerf her early game and maybe late if necessary. Let RIot nerf her like how they nerfed Darius in 7.2: Nerf early and leave late about the same. Or maybe, just maybe NERF DEATHS DANCE and then see if she needs nerfs.

technically she doesnt need any nerfs right now. her winrate isnt out of the ordinary. it even went down with this patch, including her play rate.

if anything needs nerfs, its item 3812 item 3026

this in itself would be enough to make her and other adc less frustrating to deal with.

revert item 3026 to a purely defensive item, and nerf deaths dance. then we can see where fiora stands.

DeathBurstJun 27, 20172 votes

Her AoE heal is the same as Ryze teleport. You need something to balance a champion besides damage and raw numbers, at least a modicum of utility. It's also a fallback pattern. Sure, Fiora is a super good champ for 1v1, but if you play at your real rank, you'll still lose lane roughly half the time. What're you supposed to do if you lose lane and this AoE heal isn't there anymore? Just AFK at fountain waiting for your inevitable defeat?

Comparing Fiora to Tryndamere is a bit disingenuous since Trynd is so high on the rework list and almost universally regarded as a bad design by modern standards... Other modern skirmishers do have utility. Yasuo has windwall and an AoE knock-up, and his ult, beyond the damage it deals, is also a one point something stun. Riven has stun and knock-up, Jax has stun.

OelykJun 27, 20172 votes

The massive AOE heal honestly doesn't fit her kit all that well, along with her thematic, in my opinion.

I understand that she should feel more rewarded for successfully out dueling her opponent, but I doubt that it should be a team benefit in a selfish playstyle(she is called a duelist, which a duel is a 1v1 most of the time.) Give her something else and I think she would do just the same.

GrandpaTheGreatJun 27, 20171 votes

Maybe they could replace the Heal with an entirely new effect (Such as extra damage, maybe something to help with sticking power). They could also try going for a more invisible nerf, trimming power without having much effect on how she feels. An example of how this could be done would be nerfing her E (Maybe the attack speed slow), since its not the most noticeable part of her kit

zaire90Jun 27, 20171 votes

I think I remember them saying they put that there so she wasnt completely useless in teamfights and had a little part to contribute in a team fight

VoraciousXJun 27, 20171 votes

I think the vitals should move as you turn. Make Fiora actually have to work to hit the vitals. Even if she ults then, after she hits one it gets significantly harder for her to hit the next each time. It also gives the enemy the ability to outplay her passive somewhat.

OHminusJun 27, 20171 votes

Remove AS slow on W Nerf vital damage early

that's all I ask for

would also be nice if they increased q's cooldown at all levels, but I guess that's too harsh

NymzoJun 27, 20171 votes

Remove her dash from the q spot

hotarseJun 27, 20171 votes

Vitals are too easy to hit. Dash too low CD. Movespeed and attack speed slow = overkill. Tone down some of this. Everything else is fine.

VallalanJun 27, 20171 votes

what they have to decide is to gut Fiora's early game super hard to where she is the vayne of top lane. (useless early, godly at 3 items +)

nerf her late game scaling. i say make her vitals a flat amount with no scaling that scales with levels. dont touch her early game, then no matter how much AD she build she isn't going to one shot a tank in 5 seconds with ultimate. which is what happens right now once she gets enough items. she can still take down tanks but she has to out play them over time this way.

DragonSheaJun 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charlie Loves U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JngE4tGG,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2017-06-27T18:14:35.780+0000)

what they have to decide is to gut Fiora's early game super hard to where she is the vayne of top lane. (useless early, godly at 3 items +)

or

nerf her late game scaling. i say make her vitals a flat amount with no scaling that scales with levels. dont touch her early game, then no matter how much AD she build she isn't going to one shot a tank in 5 seconds with ultimate. which is what happens right now once she gets enough items. she can still take down tanks but she has to out play them over time this way.

Make her passive AD radio scale with Lv. from 0.25 to 4.5 at lv 18. that way. her vital procs are a joke early but Holy shit late game. even I have to accept that her vital's proc's late game need to hurt if she is to have an impact in teamfights.

VallalanJun 27, 20171 votes

or she can just suck in team fights and stay good in dueling. ya know thats an option too.

MobezJun 28, 20171 votes

They are a joke early, its like 20 damage from her passive at early levels

DragonSheaJun 27, 20171 votes

Last time I tried to point out that Skirmishers are oppressive. people didn't give a shit. Well look, Fiora's passive is too strong and so is her ult. I wouldn't mind if she got a massive self heal as a reward but if she is a skirmisher that is supposed to be a duelist, someone that people need to gang up on if you are gonna survive fighting her.