Why pick Zilean if the Lulu changes on the PBE go live?

Oakleaf Ranger·Jun 18, 2016·2 votes·882 views

Zilean support already feels relatively weak compared to other supports but if the change to Lulu's W goes live then why would anyone pick Zilean over Lulu for support? Being able to buff an allys attack speed even fits Zilean's theme way more then it does for Lulu's. Its the buff that he needs to bring his power up to line of other supports. Zilean will become a second rate lulu if these changes go live with little reason to pick him over Lulu.

26 Comments

QuephaJun 18, 20164 votes

Every time you want an AoE stun at level 2 you should pick Lulu.

Princess EmmaJun 18, 20161 votes

Then that massive 40-99% slow / movement speed boost or even the ability to auto-revive team mates once killed.

Let's still go with Lulu though.

Oakleaf RangerJun 18, 20161 votes

oh you mean his situational AOE stun that requires two abilities to be used? not like lulu has a multi target long range 80% percent slow at rank 1. An ability that's basically a point and click stun or speed boost. Can grant a shield or do damage that grants true sight of the enemy. Or how about a ultimate that grants health, AOE knock up, AOE slow, and doesn't require the target to die to receive those buffs.

BeldairJun 18, 20161 votes

Zilean and Lulu have 2 different play styles.

Zilean has the dble stun harass, a speed boost/slow, and a revive.

Lulu has a line slow, a shield, polymorph, and a stat buff ult.

See, 2 different styles of play....

Oakleaf RangerJun 18, 20162 votes

I think you forgot the empowered autos, speed boost, and damage/true sight. Literally the only thing Zilean has going for him over Lulu is his AOE stun that eats a ton of mana and isn't guaranteed to work. Plus you can't do anything when your being revived by Zilean's ultimate, Lulu's still lets you move, auto attack and use spells. But sure lets add attack speed boost to the list of things Lulu can do.

QuephaJun 18, 20166 votes

{quoted}

oh you mean his situational AOE stun that requires two abilities to be used? not like lulu has a multi target long range 80% percent slow at rank 1. An ability that's basically a point and click stun or speed boost. Can grant a shield or do damage that grants true sight of the enemy. Or how about a ultimate that grants health, AOE knock up, AOE slow, and doesn't require the target to die to receive those buffs.

wow it's almost like they're COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHAMPIONS

Oakleaf RangerJun 18, 20161 votes

Wow it's almost like 1 champion can do almost every thing another champion can do but better and more?

Athenes LuluJun 18, 20161 votes

No they're actually the same, according to OP!

Oakleaf RangerJun 18, 20161 votes

Lulu has been considered a jack of all trades King of none kind of support but when it comes to her slows and movement speed boosts there is no significant difference between zilean and lulu. Only until mid to late game do the strengths between the two become noticeably different. Essentially she overshadows and overlaps with his niche so much that lulu plays like a better version of zilean. But all I hear is dur dur AOE stun hur hur you wrong and dumb

Athenes LuluJun 18, 20161 votes

Lulu is a "jack of all trades"?

You misspelled Nami.

Oakleaf RangerJun 18, 20161 votes

This is clearly become a circle jerk of against an unpopular opinion that has no valid points ;)

Athenes LuluJun 18, 20161 votes

My point being Lulu isn't necessarily a jack of all trades because she can't sustain or do setups for shit. She actually needs her teammates to engage to even do her job while Nami can do the engage on her own.

Back on Zilean versus Lulu.

Zilean: massive AoE stun, more damage on the cost of less mana, give out free EXP because passive OP, an ult that is effective when someone dies, and can win lane without the need of decent teammates. Lulu: slows in favor over damage on the cost of more mana, give out OP on-hit autoattack steroids, "ward" enemies, an ult that is effective when someone doesn't die, and needs decent teammates to actually do well especially in lane.

So, you're basically comparing 2 completely different champs and think they are the same because both slow/speed up teammates, do damage, and save lives with a click of a button. Ooh, so does it mean Janna, Nami, and even Sona are the "same champions" because they can also slow/speed up teammates, do damage, and save lives with a click of a button too?

Oakleaf RangerJun 18, 20161 votes

There can more than one jack of all trades supports lulu has okay set up with her slows and movespeed/polymorph with pseudo sustain from her shields. Nami has weaker offense capabilities in comparison but makes it up with better set up. Zilean is like every support in that regard and can't win lane by himself. Zilean is fairly squishy with no ways to migate damage or restore health without his ultimate so when another champion has slows and movespeeds that are noticeable similar for most of the game and can do more is when I think there is a problem. For example I would say Sona move speed boost is noticeable different from zilean that it doesn't infringe on his niche

Athenes LuluJun 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There can more than one jack of all trades supports lulu has okay set up with her slows and movespeed/polymorph with pseudo sustain from her shields.

Why would you want to do setups if you are going to pick someone who has no lockdowns?

Morgana can do the same thing but with only a click of a button. So can Nami, and as well as most tanky engagers. Leona and Blitz have to blow off most of their combos to do engage, but as a tradeoff they have loads of damage topped off. But using non lockdown CC to set up? Uhm, that's just simply a "weak setup".

The "psuedo sustain" counts if the shield values are actually strong enough to migate enough damage, which isn't necessarily the case with Lulu.

Nami has weaker offense capabilities in comparison but makes it up with better set up. Zilean is like every support in that regard and can't win lane by himself. Zilean is fairly squishy with no ways to migate damage or restore health without his ultimate so when another champion has slows and movespeeds that are noticeable similar for most of the game and can do more is when I think there is a problem. For example I would say Sona move speed boost is noticeable different from zilean that it doesn't infringe on his niche

Different champs with different purposes. Why are you comparing a zoning, more DPS oriented support to enchanter supports? And again, less enchanting and sustainability in favor of more DPS + range for better zoning. Keep in mind that Lulu, as a support, has a much shorter range than most enchanter supports and that she doesn't have heals to make up for that shorter range.

Zilean's slows/speedboosts are not noticeable? If anything, it's one of the most noticeable, non-ultimate movespeed buffs/debuffs.

Oakleaf RangerJun 19, 20161 votes

First of all I made the comparison between zilean and sons as way of showing that other champions can have move speed and slows while still being different enough from zilean and to avoid giving the impression that I think zilean should have a monopoly on move speed and slows. I could I have said any other support that also uses slows or move speeds for that purpose. Some champions have better lock down then other but that usually means giving up strength in other areas or meeting conditions for the lock down to work. Morgana's binding is a skillshot that can also be minion blocked so using it doesn't mean your guaranteed to get it to work every time. Having good setups but weak lock down kind of fits the jack of all trades King of none idea, you can't have it all with giving something up. Some shields are better than others but none of them are guaranteed to always win the trade otherwise that would be broken. Well if your calling zilean a zoning dps support then I'm assuming your maxing Q on him first which means he is stuck with a 40% slow until he starts maxing that, which is about as strong as almost every other slow at that point while probably maxed last. On the other hand lulu gets a 80% slow at rank one for her Q. Not only is her Slow twice as good at rank 1 but it is applied in a similar manner so it's not like hers is harder to land to compensate for having a massive slow at rank 1. Which might have been fine if she didn't ALSO HAVE A MOVE SPEED BUFF THAT CAN SCALE WITH AP that is also a point and click pseudo silence/stun. Sure later on when Zilean finally starts ranking up his slow will it eventually become better but for most of the game Lulu's slows and move speed will be better then his. Do you still think giving her an attack speed steroid instead of zilean is a good idea? because that's basically performing a drive by to zilean and leaving a paper that says "best wishes-From Lulu"

RevaliJun 19, 20161 votes

Ekko have you seen my stun, old man?

Athenes LuluJun 18, 20164 votes

>wasting polymorph over some speedboost

okay then

Oakleaf RangerJun 19, 20161 votes

FYI your statement that basically said I was wrong for comparing Zilean to Sona because one was more dps + zoning and the other is an enchanter shows how dumb you are considering THEY ARE BOTH ENCHANTERS and so is lulu. Your name gave me the impression that you are bias towards lulu but I didn't let that affect my support for my claims. After reading that though your at best just ignorant of ZIlean or at worst you just favor lulu even if it means having her in state that would be considered unhealthy for the game. So let me summarize, GET BURNED! summoner 14

GaleWinUnleashedJun 18, 20161 votes

I don't really care how strong Zilean may or may not be. I'd pick Lulu cuz I find her more fun.

NekusenJun 18, 20161 votes

I play both, i would agree Zilean support could use some slight buffs though.

NekusenJun 18, 20161 votes

Consider Lulu changes contain a serious nerf, Q 70% damage reduction after first target. That practically kills her poke.

NuparuJun 18, 20161 votes

cause lulu brings disengage and fight control whereas zilean brings a metric ****ton more damage, an actual revive if you know you won't be able to cc the killer, and a massive speedup/slowdown...

Oakleaf RangerJun 18, 20161 votes

Only if you build him with a lot of AP and even then his damage falls off compared to conventional mid laners. Keep in mind I'm talking about support zilean not mid lane zilean.

EthriJun 19, 20161 votes

As someone who plays a lot of Lulu support, the changes seem to be interesting. There is much less emphasis on maxing Q first if you want to play protect the carry, so you can always max E (even though you lose out on some extra damage if you can consistently hit 2 targets). Regarding the attack speed boost for her W, you have to consider that a lot of adcs are currently building fairly high attack speed as it is (sometimes too fast for them to move between attacks consistently), and you lose your main control ability for the AS boost.

Honestly, I think the game changer will be the mana buff, as the AS boost would only be good to use in situations you KNOW you don't need poly.

Oakleaf RangerJun 19, 20161 votes

Personally I'm down for champions have more freedom to use abilities as long they balanced. This feeling probably various from champion to champion though. I feel Lulu already has a pretty strong kit and is fine the way it is. I definitely think there more support champions who could use a buff over her (cough cough Zilean cough). If they want give her more mana to spam abilities more that's probably fine if they reduced her current damage as a trade off and preferably not her utility. But hey logical balance ideas are forbidden at Riot so yeah...

Looking at Azir ) :^l

Oakleaf RangerJun 19, 20161 votes

lol I forgot about the new champion classification update and checked it out. Apparently lulu and zilean are both enchanters. Even more reason to make their kits more distinct from each other while still maintaining general goals since they fall under the same category.