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Unpopular opinion: You should actually need to buy AP/AD to do massive damage.

Astôlfo··8 votes·1,082 views

AD fighter/juggernaut/etc? They might have sorta-ish high bases depending, but if they want their damage to stay relevant, they'll need AD. AP Mages/APCs (Azir/Cass/etc)/juggernauts (Mordekaiser, etc)? They'll need a good bit of AP and usually Void Staff later. ADC? lul build full crit/AS with Zeal evolutions, get a massive chunk of MS bonuses, rely almost entirely on autoattacks and base AD, but shred through just about anyone anyways and have constant kiting capability through the gift of being ranged

Like sure, even with the crit builds, IE and/or ER is usually built as well which gives a decent chunk of AD, as well as LDR/MR in lategame. Except even if IE/ER had no AD just like the Zeal evolutions, ADCs would still melt people in seconds.

I'm all fine with building full glass cannon via stats for massive damage (read: assassins/non-health building mages/full AD fighters/etc). But when a class can literally just build crit chance and attack speed (Runaan's first item for instance) and rely almost entirely on their base AD-derived ranged autoattacks and do more damage faster, it's mildly irritating.

But hey, I guess that's just me being Bronze 4 and trash at the game. shrug

27 Comments

PhDs Nuts5 votes

You're complaining about ADCs being able to kite constantly because they're ranged? They don't even build Mallet. Anyone with a gapcloser or movespeed boost shits on ADCs. This thread should be about how literally every mage builds Rylais.

If Runaans is the actual first item, the ADC is garbage. BFSword is required first minimum, sometimes BF+Pickaxe.

Astôlfo3 votes

No, I'm not even complaining about the kiting. Please learn to read.

I'm discussing how they can almost entirely rely on just their base AD and still output massive damage.

And no, Zeal first item is extremely common.

PhDs Nuts3 votes

{quoted}

No, I'm not even complaining about the kiting. I'm discussing how they can almost entirely rely on just their base AD and still output massive damage.

And no, Zeal first item is extremely common.

  1. No they don't. ADCs can absolutely not rely on base AD. You're saying they don't have to build AD items to deal damage. The only one that gets away with that is Vayne, but even she is most effective with an AD/crit build now.

  2. Zeal first item is not common.

Narsicus2 votes

What ADCs are we worrying about here, the ones that build no damage items but still take down all their opponents with ease?

Because personally, I don't see any Jinx's or Jhin's building full tank and taking people out in a couple seconds. Does anyone else see this scenario happening?

Astôlfo2 votes

facepalm

You seem to really have a problem with reading. They get can get AD-less AS/crit chance items which means their damage is entirely reliant on their base damage, but they still do massive damage.

PhDs Nuts2 votes

{quoted}

facepalm

You seem to really have a problem with reading. They get can get AD-less AS/crit chance items which means their damage is entirely reliant on their base damage, but they still do massive damage.

You seem to have a problem with literal definitions of words and concepts.

Building AD items = No longer relying on base damage. There are 0 ADCs that don't build AD, and a lot of it. They always build AD first.

Astôlfo1 votes

facepalm

I'm talking about prior to building said AD items, if you'd actually bother reading for half a second.

PhDs Nuts3 votes

{quoted}

facepalm

I'm talking about prior to building said AD items, if you'd actually bother reading for half a second.

Then your original complaint is complete BS, because this doesn't happen. ADCs always build AD first because they wouldn't deal damage otherwise.

If you come back to lane with a BFSword and the enemy has Zeal, you 100% all-in them ASAP because they're 1) much weaker than you, and 2) stupid.

Narsicus2 votes

Wait a second, this is considered a 'problem'? How is building a completely 100% damage stat, then dealing damage, a problem?

This is like complaining that mages can boost their dps by building CDR instead of AP.

I honestly just don't understand the indignation here, if ADCs were doing damage by building something other than damage stats I could get it. But dealing damage by building items that specifically enhance dps is problematic? Ok I guess.......

Penns1 votes

Zeal item first is only really worth if you get a BF first tho since, well, you cant entirely rely on that 60-80 base AD.

ForgiveColour1 votes

LUL

Knight Devout5 votes

item 3031 item 3087 item 3006 item 3072 item 3036 item 3026
That's 70 AD from Infinity Edge, 75 AD from Bloodthirster, and 50 AD from Lord Dominik Regard, for a total of 195 AD. Plus, a 50% Critical strike chance with 50% bonus damage on crit.

I don't know why you think they can deal damage without AD.

PhDs Nuts5 votes

Fun fact: The last person in a nep2une game to build a Zeal item before any real AD was an enemy Tryndamere, a melee AD. Both ADCs rushed BFS.

Astôlfo2 votes

I wasn't even talking about my own games, I don't even remember my own games. I'm speaking from both playing as and against ADCs, as well as watching/listening to what high-ELO players do/say/etc.

PhDs Nuts2 votes

{quoted}

I wasn't even talking about my own games, I don't even remember my own games.

lol? Maybe you shouldn't have opinions on balance then.

I'm speaking from both playing as and against ADCs

Wait. Those are your own games...

as well as watching/listening to what high-ELO players do/say/etc.

They build AD before a Zeal item. They say to build AD before a Zeal item. Unless you're watching a random diamond streamer that's been getting carried this isn't what goes on with high elo ADCs; at least not qtpie/Gosu/every LCS ADC that we just watched at Worlds.

Penns4 votes

I dont like how that title is coming from an Illaoi main lel. I mean, even if adcs build 1-2 crit/AS items, they still build full damage and should do damage. Illaoi and co build 1, maybe 2 half damage half tanky items and still destroy squishies.

Astôlfo1 votes

Except the difference with Illaoi and ADCs is that her damage falls off late while ADCs hyperscale into late. And Illaoi's damage without AD is utter shit past early/mid.

The only reason she'd do a lot is if her AD teammates take advantage of said Black Cleaver armorshred, which isn't even her, or if they continuously fight inside her ultimate/getting their Spirit double hit, which is their fault for doing so in the first place. Anyone would do a lot of damage if you let them hit you repeatedly in their strongest fighting zone.

Also, the only way she can be a threat while moving or actively pushing is her E if teammates are with her, or her ultimate if the enemy team is dumb enough to fight inside of it, since her damage is entirely locked to her tentacles essentially.

Sure, she's a lot tankier and more durable. She's still pseudo-melee range for all meaningful parts. Her abilities are also all dodgeable/avoidable (her W is AA modifier but the dash range is extremely short). ADCs can continually DPS shred from distance behind their team.

Ralanr4 votes

I never thought "linear fighters, Quadratic wizards" would come into play outside of the mage archetype.

But marksmen play it perfectly.

Penns2 votes

Well they hyperscale into late because

  1. they are basically useless without either 4-5+ items or being 5/0 in lane and 2) they build 6 damage items minus maybe GA.

You main tanky champs and think adcs are bs, I main assassins and think most tanky champs are bs because they still easily kill me if I get too close, even when Im snowballing quite hard. So.. I guess we cant agree on that topic lol.

LXII4 votes

Nobody builds crit chance and attack speed before damage and actually wins lane OR does "massive damage".

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

What the fuck are you talking about? Full ADC builds are reaching 300+ And build only 2 zeal items, or they dont carry well into late game.

Crit is multiplying the current damage, if an ADC builds only crit his damage will fall of later in game, whats the problem with ADC buying 2 attack speed items?

Also, ADCs have lower base stats than bruisers/fighters/tanks and usually have lower base skill damage and rely on scaling, unlike - lets say renekton who can build 2 damage/tank hybrid items and still be able to beat a squishy if he reaches them.

Bruisers have Black cleaver which is always relevent AND has amazing passive Mages have tons of items that bring AP+resistances/hp

Stop farming circle jerk upvotes, you're blowing this out of proportion, ADC dont melt anyone early game and those that do (lucian) fall off hard late game.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

Also as someome who actually plays ADC everytime my opponent buy's zeal on first back i know it's go time, because when i have BF and he has a zeal item, i know i can out trade him.

I dont know how's it like im bronze 4, but if your team is getting melted by marksman who isnt fed before late game, you're probably just running at them taking a beating from range.

Captain Aishi3 votes

It sure is fun seeing Caitlyn crit for 1k damage with only 1 damage item and the rest being attackspeed/crit items :P

DrCyanide2 votes

Nasus Veigar WHAT?!?!?!

Sightless662 votes

lul build full crit/AS with Zeal evolutions

Any ADC who goes pure attack speed is trash, and will do trash damage. The best ADC builds have 1-2 zeal items and then everything else is AD. Even the hurricane rush comes with a BF sword thrown in before hurricane is completed. That's how important AD is.

Additionally, you make a point of how you're fine with "glass cannon" builds doing lots of damage, but last time I looked, the crit and AS that you are bitching about are pretty offensively oriented stats.

Ralanr1 votes

As a Sion Main who loves his base damages, I'm on the fence here.

Astôlfo1 votes

Sion's fine. If he doesn't build damage, his damage falls off into late. It's just he's extremely tanky to the point he can pretty much engage and continuously hit people without dying instantly.

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