armor's really weird

Dingding123·Feb 20, 2015·6 votes·787 views

the less you have the more it's worth but armor items aren't valuable, even early game; a cloth armor doesn't even count as 10% damage reduction at level 1 runes don't give much armor either, not even the quints and the more you have the more you lose from %pen sources

it's the stat you don't want at all, unless the item it builds into is useful i.o.w. the exact opposite of basic damage items on graves I often buy 2 BF swords back to back who in the world wants to rush a chain vest anymore? was it that much of a problem back when 700g got you 45 armor?

I guess I need a point or something otherwise this is just a rant

okay armor is the reason tanks aren't good, the stat should either be reworked to be more healthy for everyone or it should be entirely removed from the game MR is fine even though it's exactly the same thing. Lol.

26 Comments

qetzelFeb 20, 20159 votes

Wrong! Armour does not have diminishing returns. Each point of armour gives you an extra 1% effective health (EH) against physical damage. Say you have 1000 health and 100 armour. That becomes 2000 EH, i.e. you can take 2000 points of physical damage before dying. Now say you have 1000 health and 200 armour. You now have 3000 EH. The extra 100 armour increased your effetive health by the same amount as the first 100.

There is a limit to how much useful armour you can by though. 1000 health and 300 armour is 3000 EH but 200 armour and 2000 health is 4000 EH. You need a mixture.

The more armour you have, the more you lose from %Pen sources does increase, yes, but the percentage you lose is the same, and the amount you keep is higher.

tl;dr: Armour does not have diminishing returns. Not at all. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Dingding123Feb 21, 20151 votes

diminishing returns i definitely agree it does not have but surely you acknowledge its diminishing value I don't even have to say like 50% damage reduction with 100 armor 66% damage reduction with 200 armor what you get from it drops so fast that there's eventually little to no point to having more of it because having 400 armor takes up most of your item slots and might give you stats you can't use because there are only so many different armor items and they whereas having 4k health and 200 armor is equally doable in a much more comfortable fashion armor as a number is an extremely expensive (or cost ineffective, depending on if you're a half-empty or half-full type (I'll let you decide which is which)) stat to have a lot of and eventually more of the stat doesn't actually do anything for you unless it works with your abilities the only reason people get it is because aside from only 2 items lifesteal is really bad now

qetzelFeb 21, 20152 votes

I do not acknowledge its diminishing value. 100% Extra EH for 100 armour, 200% Extra EH for 200 armour. Each extra point of armour does exactly as much as each point before it and each point after it.

Why should armour be all you need to buy against physical damage? Why is buying health so bad (Given that the only %HP that isn't affected by resistances is Vayne's W)? Your health value is increased by buying armour. Your armour value is increased by buying health.

People buy armour in conjuction with health because it provides the best defence available against physical damage.

Knight SoIaire Feb 21, 20152 votes

I do not acknowledge its diminishing value.

you dont acknowledge but it is there and messes your calculation

owerall armor is insanely strong when no penetration is counted, and insanely weak when penetration is counted

the problem is that anything starts with arpen, then buys arpen as his core item, or has even more arpen in their kit

so we have quite ballanced arpen vs armor interaction, but one of the stats is just too common and always accesible

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20151 votes

No it isn't. 1 Armour gives you 1% of your HP as bonus EHP, no exceptions. 100 armor=50% reduction=your EHP is doubled. 200 armor=66% reduction=your EHP is tripled. 400 armor=75% reduction=your EHP is quadrupled.

It's a linear increase.

Knight SoIaire Feb 21, 20151 votes

so you get maybe 500% ehp then adc oneshots you because you are so tanky

whatever is that ehp crap you are talking about its obsolete

big amounts of armor are usualy less effective than medicore amounts of it especialy when you just increase the cost effectivenes of enemy last whisper

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20151 votes

EHP is effective HP, aka how much raw damage you can take. Getting a 500% HP increase through resits would mean stacking 600 armor(which isn't exactly easy), but then you'd be extremely tanky, even with a "meh" 3000 HP. 600*0.61=366. That's your armor after LW+masteries %pen. 366 armor and 3000 HP gives you 13980 EHP(and this is after penetration). Even if their adc has 1000 DPS It will take them almost 14 seconds to kill you.

Knight SoIaire Feb 21, 20151 votes

Even if their adc has 1000 DPS

many adc's get higher when atacking a target without armor also stuff like botrk

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20151 votes

Not really. A tristana with IE, BT, LW, Shiv, and Mercurial, and standard AD runes and masteries will have 1260 DPS with Q active(for 5 seconds), then 882 DPS with it on CD. 1000 DPS is about as much as you can expect with autos if you're not vayne and don't have %hp true damage. You'll get even less if you build GA over Scimitar, and that full adc build is far more expensive than a full tank build.

Knight SoIaire Feb 21, 20151 votes

did you take the dragon buff and the mastery increasing your bonus ad by % into account

also you didnt give her any boots

if you're not vayne and don't have %hp true damage.

draven grawes twitch and blue ez might disagree with you

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20151 votes

Took all the masteries into account, but no dragon buff. Just up that by 6% and it still won't be able to shred 14000 EHP in under 10 seconds(let alone "melting" them in 5).

Also, no. Draven, Graves, Twitch and blue EZ do not outdamage a full build Tristana with Q active. And I assumed Berserker's Greaves, you won't have ~2.0 AS with only Q and Shiv. They can do more than 1000 damage in a second, but they can't consistently do that over 5 seconds.

Knight SoIaire Feb 21, 20151 votes

thats not 6% more dmg thats 6% more ad during a crit it means 12% more damage if you have ie its 15% more damage

dragon buff usualy allows adc's to breach the 400ad level

Also, no. Draven, Graves, Twitch and blue EZ do not outdamage a full build Tristana with Q active

twitch's q is a little weaker than tristas q and his ult gives him 36 ad

draven can 3 hit ppl late game (tanky ppl) since his autos deal additional 85% of his ad ie crit is equal to 335% of his ad

graves is just bursty , his e is also similar to tristas q, on top of him scaling with ad better

and the blue ez im not sure but i had results similar to drawen with him

also you mean the pre nerf/rework tristana ? becasue the new one isnt the master of autos anymore

owerall those guys can outclass tristas damage, they arent as reliable in game but they can pull it off

on top of the fact that in game i see and i do melt tanks with adc's, which makes me doubt your entire effective hp thing (the calculation only, tanks can be tanky but full built tank dies like a minion)

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20151 votes

That's just how armor works. The formula for the reduction is [armor/(100+armor)]. So 200 armor is 100/200=50% reduction. So if you have 2000 HP and 50% reduction, your EHP is 4000. Same with 600 armor, which is(600/700), so 85,7% reduction. Most tanks won't have that much armor because they have to get some MR too, and not all of them have %armor increases(which is how you get those huge numbers). Twitch's Q is 70% AS, Trist's Q is 110%, that's quite a difference. And my calculations didn't even include the AS slows from FH and Randuin, tabi effect, %dmg reduction masteries, etc. You melt tanks because they're either not tanky enough or get focused by multiple people so it ends up looking like you're doing more damage than you actually are. Try it with Malphite building FH, Randuin's, Sunfire, Thornmail, Tabi, Warmogs. See if you can "melt" him in under 10 seconds.

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20151 votes

To be fair, having 2k hp and 500 armor gives you the same EHP as having 4k hp and 200 armor. You're at 12000 EHP vs physical damage either way. If you add penetration(the standard 39% from LW and masteries) that 500 becomes 305 and 200 becomes 122. 2k hp and 305 armor is 8100EHP and 4k hp with 122 armor is 8800 EHP.

1 point of armor is 20g and 1 HP is 2,66(8/3)g so the cost of 300 armor is 6000 gold and the cost of 2000 HP is 5333,33g. So yeah, you'll save 677 gold and have 700 more EHP by going for a 200 armor, 4k hp build, BUT any heals on you will be less effective and ADCs will be able to lifesteal off you harder(since lifesteal is based on actual damage dealt, so more armor=less lifesteal).

Honestly though, some tanks with %defence bonuses can get both 4k hp and 400+ armor, which is what you need if you want to survive an adc for more than a few seconds.

xLegendary TrollFeb 20, 20153 votes

Go jungle without armor runes. Come back and tell me how it went.

Dingding123Feb 20, 20151 votes

i do it with tryndamere and it works really well lol

But that's a special case really

GunpointFeb 20, 20151 votes

I use 41% AS runes for jungling baby.

BetaDude40Feb 20, 20151 votes

I don't even have armor runes and I play tanky junglers all the time. (Cho'Gath especially)

PæanFeb 21, 20151 votes

Shaco :3 Them boxes

OhOkYeahFeb 20, 20151 votes

Skarner

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 20, 20151 votes

The more armor you have, the more is penetrated by % penetration, yes. However, the armor that is penetrated is of less value that if you'd had less armor, even though the flat number that would be ignored is larger. More armor actually reduces the effectiveness of % armor pen.

Dingding123Feb 20, 20151 votes

fair point although there aren't any ways of having enough armor to make use of that

B1naryB0tFeb 20, 20151 votes

Taric Taric Taric Taric Taric

PatMcGroynFeb 20, 20151 votes

This is why I don't like to build much more than 150 armor/ mr on bruisers. Having 60% damage reduction is really nice, and if they have Last Whisper/ Void Staff, then you still have 50% damage reduction. That way, I can build damage and still have legit survivability.

McAllisterFeb 21, 20151 votes

If you upvoted this, there are three possibilities:

You've never seen the math on armor before, you skimmed this, and upvoted without thinking too hard
As above, but you did think about it, and you're not very smart
You understand that it's correct and want it upvoted so people see the truth in the first comment