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@Riot: No keystone deserves to give 20% true damage.

Dingding123··54 votes·15,476 views

None whatsoever. Conqueror is ridiculous and turns otherwise normal champions into extremely problematic ones:

  • Tryndameres take Conqueror and play around RNG crits for a million at early levels.
  • Yasuo takes it and keeps it ready to proc until he builds up a full shield, and then pushes the enemy laner out of lane entirely.
  • Renekton abuses his cooldowns with it and that somehow does not make him MORE of an offender of Conqueror than the previously mentioned carries. Just look at this rune and then look at Renekton's kit, like holy crud.
  • Irelia, Jax, Camille, etc. abuse it alongside their CC and mobility for pretty broken all-ins.
  • Other broken things done with it in pro play that I don't bother to research. You know better about it than I do as I fall asleep trying to watch the LCS right now.

None of that is fun or engaging to play around, and to make matters worse it is a rune that scales extremely well into lategame. That should not be the lategame fantasy of melees - the opportunity to burst someone like an assassin by abusing certain defensive abilities or despite building tank items. Tanks already try to do that now anyway to stay relevant in this meta, so Conqueror just makes bruisers better tanks than tanks, save having as much CC. But then again, killing is pretty good CC...

Let's nerf Conqueror to the ground already, or at least change it. Even 10% of damage becoming true damage would be somewhat egregious alongside that amount of scaling AD, but at least that sort of nerf would leave room for some more interactive stats, like 5% damage reduction and 5% bonus healing or something along those lines. Those sort of stats honestly make much, much more sense thematically than just more raw AD and 20% of damage being true damage - a rune that enables warriors to emerge triumphant through the thick of battle, not "LUL I INSTAGIB U NAO". Despite being less broken I would consider taking that rune over the current monstrosity that it is. Rito pls.

90 Comments

DuskDaUmbreon45 votes

The thing is that the true damage doesn't let him instagib you.

The shitton of AD the rune gives can, yes, but not the true damage.

It's basically just 20% armor (and magic) pen. That's what it does. No tank is going to be instagibbed by a Trynd because they have a lot of health as well. No Squishy is going to be instagibbed by Trynd because of the true damage, they'll be instagibbed because Trynd is Trynd.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

^

Shahamut22 votes

Not to mention it's not 20% EXTRA true damage. It's a damage conversion. Which scales better vs tanks and worse vs squishies.

100 dmg (pre-mitigated) does not become 120 dmg. It becomes 80 dmg and 20 true damage. If you have 50% reduction from resist, then instead of 50 dmg (100/2) you take 60 damage 80/2 +20).

Honestly, I think it's a very good mechanic overall. I'm not too sure what its overall damage output is like compared to other runes, bit I am sure the pre-nerfed runes were stronger.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

The bigger problem, as I said, is that Conquerer is too much AD on a single rune.

Sure, you can pass it with a few others (Celerity and Gathering Storm, to be precise), but those take a lot of time to get going, and Celerity giving over 30 AD is only possible on Quinn at level 16 in ult with Youmuu's or Homeguard, or other insane levels of ms that are only going to last for a single auto because you just can't reach it otherwise.

Shahamut7 votes

I mean, I dont think 35 AD is that huge. Especially at level 18. Now, I personally think things like celerity should lose dmg stats entirely and have utility boost instead. Like, give back some MS on the rune, get rid of the bonus ad/ap, and add on something like slow resist, or a burst of speed on takedown.

Gathering Storm is fine imho.

Bløød Zerø1 votes

{quoted}

I mean, I dont think 35 AD is that huge. Especially at level 18. Now, I personally think things like celerity should lose dmg stats entirely and have utility boost instead. Like, give back some MS on the rune, get rid of the bonus ad/ap, and add on something like slow resist, or a burst of speed on takedown.

Gathering Storm is fine imho.

Well they took of the utility ms for more conversion dmg on celerity bcos it was too op in making a difference between champs with it and without apparently. Tbh I never felt that way but celerity and gathering storm are quite problematic mid game. Like gathering storm useless af early but mid game random AP/AD spikes are so good on certain champs that it consistently aids in fights after the spike. I feel tho that its not gonna be as problematic since games are becoming shorter and faster paced but to keep it relevant they could make it faster but not as much AP/AD. Scorch is a fun time especially on support but late game feels like its not there maybe if they gave it a scaling cool down to where late game it has an almost non-existent cd but the burn smh doesn't stack but just reapplies the debuff.

Bløød Zerø1 votes

{quoted}

Well they took of the utility ms for more conversion dmg on celerity bcos it was too op in making a difference between champs with it and without apparently. Tbh I never felt that way but celerity and gathering storm are quite problematic mid game. Like gathering storm useless af early but mid game random AP/AD spikes are so good on certain champs that it consistently aids in fights after the spike. I feel tho that its not gonna be as problematic since games are becoming shorter and faster paced but to keep it relevant they could make it faster but not as much AP/AD. Scorch is a fun time especially on support but late game feels like its not there maybe if they gave it a scaling cool down to where late game it has an almost non-existent cd but the burn smh doesn't stack but just reapplies the debuff.

I do like your idea of celerity change too tho with like a mini jinx passive. Or maybe like gives movespeed and bonus ad/ap on a takedown (no stacking and scales with ms) but no bonus movespeed if no takedown at all. Idk man lol.

sir d wreck6 votes

You having a conversation about balance with yourself?

ooooale1 votes

Lmao

Bløød Zerø1 votes

[{quoted}](name=sir d wreck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PPrGHIIK,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T18:29:10.067+0000)

You having a conversation about balance with yourself?

Read the comment that I replied to before replying to myself XD.

mzicio2 votes

item 1036 costs 350g and gives 10 AD. 35 AD would be equivalent to 1225g, it's a lot of gold no matter how far you are into the game.

Shahamut3 votes

you can slice it one way or another. At level 18, even a squishy champion like Yasuo has 88 armor (roughly 47% dmg reduction) without buying any armor at all. So assuming you have a GA or an Hourglass, even a squishy champion will have 50% dmg reduction.

so that 35 AD at its BEST is a whopping +17dmg per auto.

More math: With conqueror, you would get 7 true damage, and 14 physical damage, a whole 4 more damage overall.

MORE MATHS?!

Critical Strike! If its NOT Yasuo, means 70 dmg per auto. Thats not too bad, reduced to 35.

IE AND Conqueror?! Assuming a best case scenario (not exactly sure how the math is on its conversion) its 21 True Damage and around 25 physical damage. Thats 11 more damage overall.

I agree that these things stack up over time, but I don't think the 35 AD is a cutting edge difference in overall dps.

Again, this is assuming you only have 50% damage reduction.

Now, it does not need stated, I understand that 35 AD also affects skills with AD scaling, and burst combo champions like Renekton get a lot more out of it than just auto attack champions in the short term.

But again, late game, I dont think the extra AD is as big a deal as some people think.

Pika Fox11 votes

"But its true damage and its, like, bad, right? 20% is a lot so it must be 20% extra damage. Holy moly batman numbers!"

F1lmboy2 votes

Mostly agree. Conqueror certainly isn't a burst rune, it boosts damage in extended fights.

I think it's worth noting though that 20% true damage conversion doesn't behave that similarly to 20% armor pen, though. True damage conversion is, if my 2AM quick maths are to be believed (which might be a poor choice, mind), stronger across the board than 20% armor pen, but especially against tanks. They converge at 0 armor, clearly; at, say, 50 armor, the true damage conversion does about 2.6% more damage than arpen; at 250 armor, true damage conversion does a significant 28.6% more damage than arpen (and about 50% more damage than no arpen or true damage).

Thus there is some merit to OPs claim that bruisers can abuse conqueror to some extent at the expense of tanks. Historically, a late-game fight between a bruiser and a tank (in my memory) tends to favor the tank, but conqueror's tank-busting power changes that matchup. Still, while the suggestion that conqueror makes bruisers into assassins is laughable, I personally think conqueror needs a change, at the very least so it isn't as oppressive against tanks. The suggestions OP made (resists, healing) are very reasonable.

Trollmanship20 votes

Funny thing is, it's not any more OP than Electrocute and even on Renekton Press the Attack is just as good as it. Face it, runes as a whole this season are a balance catastrophe.

Dingding1231 votes

In the jungle yes, both of those runes are arguably better.

In lane, however, Renekton can abuse the AD and true damage bonus with his whole kit, which if he has enough rage can bring someone all the way from near 100% to within Ignite range and an AA or two of death. And he can just flash onto people and do his whole combo instantly. Not to mention Electrocute just got a hefty damage nerf to compensate for its lowered cooldown, meaning it would now almost always require a whole additional all-in to kill someone.

Seer of Mind2 votes

....Renekton jungle?

Dingding1232 votes

Believe it or not I played quite a bit of it this season. Not that bad actually, coming from someone who also played him top a lot! I Usually took PTA + Absolute Focus and Waterwalking. I had great burst early/midgame so long as I reached people, and by lategame I'd let PTA do most of the work. Tiamat is a busted jungle item too so that helped.

Seer of Mind2 votes

Ah, that makes more sense. Before i used to play aftershock on him, but I can't now since iron skin was removed :<

YumaS2Astral5 votes

{quoted}

Funny thing is, it's not any more OP than Electrocute and even on Renekton Press the Attack is just as good as it. Face it, runes as a whole this season are a balance catastrophe.

In Renekton I would take Conqueror only against teams with champions that stack resistances. Otherwise Press the Attack would probably be better, especially with his W.

Catastrophic4 votes

{quoted}

Funny thing is, it's not any more OP than Electrocute and even on Renekton Press the Attack is just as good as it. Face it, runes as a whole this season are a balance catastrophe.

hello

Pika Fox9 votes

Itt: more people that have no idea how conqueror or true damage work.

wildfox998 votes

@Riot: No keystone deserves to give 20% true damage.

RIOT : so you want me to put it in a secondary rune?

[slayer-jinx-wink]

ankoanko196 votes

But Camille doesnt even use conquerer for 93% of her games :/

Brandono991 votes

Exactly. Don't lump us Camille players in with your rant...

Backup4now6 votes

If you nerf conqueror in any way without changing the rest of the game around it, it'll just be shit. I agree that it needs nerfs, but EVERYTHING in the new masteries that give damage needs nerfs.

If conqueror gets nerfed, then all of the alternatives should be nerfed simultaneously, things that are probably better than it on most characters. The reason conqueror gives the obnoxious 20% is because that's what it takes to compete with the other super-broken runes and game state.

AirKingNeo4 votes

@OP, no one is taking Conqueror in competitive play anymore because bruisers aren't viable in competitive anymore.

Why are you complaining about something that isn't strong?

SithesisLord2 votes

bruisers aren't viable in competitive anymore.

A class almost tailor-made for SoloQ is bad in Organized Play when they´re not batshit broken?

OBNOXIOUS GASP Oh the horror, the horror.

AirKingNeo2 votes

you realize that your entire statement is contradicted by season 2 and 3 where bruisers were viable without being broken?

SithesisLord2 votes

Comparing League now to League then is pointless and idiotic, because the game changed considerably from back then.

Nowadays, SoloQ made classes are only competitively viable if they´re completely broken.

Camille was competitively viable because she was and still is broken.

Irelia was competitively viable because she was broken.

Mundo was competitively viable because he was broken.

Talon was competitively viable because he was overbuffed into a broken state and AD DFG aka Duskblade exists.

Taliyah jungle was competitively viable because it was broken.

Zoe was and likely still is competitively viable because she's broken.

Still waiting on Riot to buff Zed without buffing his counters yet again so i can add him to the list.

Mages bot were competitively viable because Riot nearly gutted Doran's Ring and didn´t even touch the actual problem, which is Lost Chapter's existence.

That and late game crit carries were massively overnerfed.

Also, competitive viability doesn´t reflect the state of something in SoloQ. Organized play is a whole different game from SoloQ, but what's drafted in one is somewhat influenced by what is drafted in the other.

Tahm Kench borderlines on troll pick in all SoloQ roles, and yet his support viability just received a less than gentle kick in the stomach because of his competitive viability and value.

Zed isn´t competitively viable, but he's definitely a problem in SoloQ. More so than an AD assassin should be allowed to be.

Conqueror champions aren´t competitively viable, but that doesn´t mean some of them (cough Jax cough) aren´t a problem in SoloQ.

AirKingNeo1 votes

but then your initial argument isn't correct. If the "game changed" then it still doesn't change that there was a time in the game where bruisers were competitively viable without being broken.

Brandono991 votes

Downvoting this due to the lumping in of Camille

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

you realize that your entire statement is contradicted by season 2 and 3 where bruisers were viable without being broken?

What? Black Cleaver fucking destroyed balance for Bruisers in season 3

Not to mention Elixir of Fortitude early level cheese

AirKingNeo1 votes

1 specific point in time doesn't really break what I said

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

1 specific point in time doesn't really break what I said

No, but the season as a whole isn't the innocent time it's all made out to be. The top lane meta was extremely narrow and tiny back then at pretty much all points of it. I still remember the three way deadlock between Shyvana, Mundo, and Renekton

PB4UAME2 votes

Perhaps if you looked at their post again, you would see that they are talking more to game health and proplematic patterns of play, and abuse cases, rather than one strictly of balance. They offer suggestions, but they are qualified and explained to be meant to alleviate the problematic elements the OP discusses.

None whatsoever. Conqueror is ridiculous and turns otherwise normal champions into extremely problematic ones: [emphasis mine]

~

None of that is fun or engaging to play around, and to make matters worse it is a rune that scales extremely well into lategame. That should not be the lategame fantasy of melees - the opportunity to burst someone like an assassin by abusing certain defensive abilities or despite building tank items. [emphasis mine]

You're basically strawmanning the post, and responding with a non sequitur.

Primeval Void4 votes

Mentiones Camille with Conqueror, instantly gives off a Silver vibe.

Any respectable Camille takes Comet for poke and Press the Attack for all ins.

Zaghyr3 votes

Let's do a little math so show that the true damage is not ridiculous. Lets take the hypothetical scenario that a champion with 100 armor would take 1000 damage in a trade/fight before mitigations. The way the true damage works is that 1000 damage is split into 80% (that will be mitigated) and 20% (that will be turned into true damage). 100 Armor reduces physical damage by 50%. The 80% portion would have it's damage reduced to 400 while the 20% portion would be 200 True Damage. Seems like a lot? Wrong. Without the true damage conversion, that 20% portion would only do 100 damage. This means that you gained 100 bonus damage from the entire trade/fight from the true damage. That amount is not insane considering it is on par with (and sometimes weaker) other keystones, and it is applied over the full duration of the fight. If you are getting bursted by a champion who is using conquerer, chances are they would be bursting you even without it. Stop whining about Conqueror, it changes nothing.

Madsin251 votes

You honestly would not be defending conqueror if you played tanks and had the pleasure of going up against Yas Conqueror item 3031.

Frontlines do not exist in the game if he is in one. I was actually fed out of my mind with 6 items trundle one game.(cinderhulk,iceborn,randuins,visage,tabis,titanic)

5 item yas E's me for 800 true damage, ults me and proceeds to burst me down in less than 2 seconds through my ultimate.

There is no defending that shit.

Zaghyr2 votes

I am defending it, and I do play tanks, and I am fine with it. Also, you might want to look at your 4th line. I highly doubt Yas's E would do 800 anything.

KuroCaliber1 votes

probably was the EQ combo.

Hemulen Magi3 votes

I think that Conqueror would be healthy IF:

  1. It were completely melee-only (taking it on a ranged champion should automatically swap to Press the Attack) OR it had scaling that strictly made it totally non-viable unless the user builds real bruiser levels of of health.

  2. It only charged up while in combat with champions (charge-time reduced to 3 seconds to compensate)

  3. Fights lasted longer and tanks were tankier in general so that shredding them so effectively were justifiable rather than simply invalidating

  4. It gave adaptive AP/AD scaling with the user's health instead of just flat AD, so that melee AP brawlers could use it properly to make top lane more diverse Chogath Galio Rumble Singed Gragas Mordekaiser but only if it becomes melee-only so that regular ranged mages won't use it.

Health scaling will make it a more specialized tool for real bruisers only. Melee champions who often build glass cannon, such as Yasuo Tryndamere Fiora Jax should get Press the Attack or Lethal Tempo instead unless they are planning on going with a lower damage-output bruiser build. For example, Yasuo would probably only bring it if he plans to build something a bit off-meta like this: item 3046 item 3031 item 3053 item 3161 item 3022 And by building that way, he would have to choose to prioritize building crit or health early game, so he'd either have no passive or no keystone early game as a trade-off for the lategame dueling power of such a build.

MorgManBasher3 votes

The keystone isn't even used that much and if you think it's overpowered you are in a dream world. Very few top laners actually use the keystone.

Fiora Grasp Urgot Comet Aatrox Comet Chogath Comet or Grasp Garen Grasp Darius Phase Rush or Conqueror Gnar Aery, fleet footwork or grasp Gragas Grasp or comet Kled Press the attack or Conqueror Tryndamere Conqueror Singed Aery, spellbook or after shock DrMundo Grasp Camille Comet or press the attack, very rarely Conqueror Akali Electrocute Gangplank Grasp Sion Comet or glacial augement Shen grasp Trundle Press the attack or grasp Renekton Press the attack or Conqueror Jayce Aery Heimerdinger Aery or comet Malphite Grasp Rumble Comet Riven Electrocute, spellbook, sometimes Conqueror Poppy Aery, grasp Pantheon electrocute, aery Illaoi Klepto or grasp Jax Conqueror Yorick Grasp, some Conqueror MonkeyKing Electrocute Ornn Grasp Olaf Mostly Comet, sometimes Conqueror Nasus Grasp, Phase rush, Spell book, Klepto and Conqueror....Nasus players are weird people Kennen Aery, press the attack Teemo Aery, Grasp Quinn Phase rush, electocute Maokai Do people still play this champ? Grasp

Bløød Zerø1 votes

{quoted}

The keystone isn't even used that much and if you think it's overpowered you are in a dream world. Very few top laners actually use the keystone.

Fiora Grasp Urgot Comet Aatrox Comet Chogath Comet or Grasp Garen Grasp Darius Phase Rush or Conqueror Gnar Aery, fleet footwork or grasp Gragas Grasp or comet Kled Press the attack or Conqueror Tryndamere Conqueror Singed Aery, spellbook or after shock DrMundo Grasp Camille Comet or press the attack, very rarely Conqueror Akali Electrocute Gangplank Grasp Sion Comet or glacial augement Shen grasp Trundle Press the attack or grasp Renekton Press the attack or Conqueror Jayce Aery Heimerdinger Aery or comet Malphite Grasp Rumble Comet Riven Electrocute, spellbook, sometimes Conqueror Poppy Aery, grasp Pantheon electrocute, aery Illaoi Klepto or grasp Jax Conqueror Yorick Grasp, some Conqueror MonkeyKing Electrocute Ornn Grasp Olaf Mostly Comet, sometimes Conqueror Nasus Grasp, Phase rush, Spell book, Klepto and Conqueror....Nasus players are weird people Kennen Aery, press the attack Teemo Aery, Grasp Quinn Phase rush, electocute Maokai Do people still play this champ? Grasp

One lol teemo is played with comet and lethal tempo is rare as well on him. Riven plays mostly with conq or elec based on enemy comp since spellbook nerf. She does use it but in very rare and specific scenarios. I haven't seen a press the attack Camille since conq but honestly both runes pale in comparison to her with comet I find. I honestly think conq is super balanced only 1 or maybe 2 champions abuse it with the current meta/ items. Like back when renek abused ER yeah conq was too much icing on that cake, but now he's back to old renek essentially. Tbh the problematic champs rn are not even conq abusers like Quinn, panth and kennen are by far way to strong rn. Kennen being the weakest of the 3 (maybe not since I haven't played with the new Quinn nerfs). One last thing maokai is sleeper opop 1000 AP one shot jinkies. Jk I just like his meowkai skin...

alagore1 votes

Teemo is played with Aery. His passive poison procs it twice, dealing a lot of extra damage, especially during laning phase. Also, your formatting is atrocious.

Bløød Zerø1 votes

{quoted}

Teemo is played with Aery. His passive poison procs it twice, dealing a lot of extra damage, especially during laning phase. Also, your formatting is atrocious.

I was saying he is played with comet and lethal as well as aery grasp. I play aery teemo. Also so what if my formatting is atrocious?

Sona Ping1 votes

{quoted}

I was saying he is played with comet and lethal as well as aery grasp. I play aery tramp. Also so what if my formatting is atrocious?

Because with atrocious writing, you will hinder your ability to communicate and can be easily misunderstood.

As demonstrated.

Bløød Zerø1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PPrGHIIK,comment-id=00180000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-23T12:13:46.692+0000)

Because with atrocious writing, you will hinder your ability to communicate and can be easily misunderstood.

As demonstrated.

Not always. Most people misunderstand because the writer tries to explain with a tone that the reader doesn't grasp till told. That does not have much to do with formatting but the grammar implications I used and the intonation in the way I wrote it. Formatting is when you separate paragraphs and indent at the start of each one. I could have wrote that more grammatically correct to fit the tone I was using and not forgotten to simply write as well or also. Me forgetting a word is not a format error or atrocious formatting. Lastly not every reader will interpret writing the same and definitely some readers will interpret way far from how the writer intended.

Trollocs2 votes

I don't think anything but the Champ's abilities should have true damage. If true damage is left to a Champ by Champ basis it is easiest to manage. True damage is too powerful to be given out by runes or items. Unless they have accounted for every possible exploitation, leave true damage in the realm of Champion abilities.

blurryhunter2 votes

People that complain about it being oppressive against Tanks seem to forget that the keystone was made to give Bruisers something that felt better offensively then Grasp.

If I'm recalling the top lane S8 situation pre-Conqueror correctly, Tanks were shoving most Bruisers clean out due to Grasp being superior in Tank vs Bruiser match-ups and other keystone options made little impact against the scaling defense.

That aside you do have to play differently facing many that take the keystone and it is probably the most telegraphed keystone top lane.

I can't outplay a paper sack, but even I know to back off when Conqueror is up; just like everyone says about half the champion kits we've had in the game for years before this keystone, lol.

I like the thought some have mentioned about restricting it's window of activity to champions only. I think if they made it fall off at full stacks if not on a champion within X time (instead of refreshing on minion hit) it would give players a bit more breathing room as the enemy would have to risk giving up CS to proc it.

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