Mid Laners, Let's Have a Chat

The Yetii Rider·Sep 19, 2015·4 votes·734 views

This is not a rage thread.

I'm just curious. I don't main mid, but every time I go mid I realize that the enemy is a champion with low costs (Ahri, Annie) or no costs (Zed, Yasuo).

And the more I think about it, the less and less I've seen of sustained damage dealing mages since the mana itemization changes. Champions like Anivia, Brand, Ziggs, Syndra, Vel'Koz...

So I ask you, mid laners. Is this because you guys just can't survive the game without good mana items, or is there some other reason the meta shifted away from these type of champions?

21 Comments

MiraweaveSep 19, 20156 votes

I just feel like pointing out that Ahri actually has pretty signifigant mana costs, especially since she doesn't build any form of mana fix. You have to be pretty damn careful managing your mana with her.

Titanium70Sep 20, 20153 votes

Well the mana guys still exist. ^^ I'm maining Swain and I love Anivia Azir Karthus

The problem is, most people prefer save and easy champs - and immobile DPS champs aren`t save at all! You can loose your lane horrible and basicly loose the game on your own, while not being able become and unstoppable snowball when fed (because of good kiting).

Ahri and Zed for example: If you win your lane, great you can snowball and catch everyone with your mobility - If you`re realizing your opponent is simply better than you are you can just stand back, keep farming while being nearly unkillable.

Additional - Roaming needs some preparations: You need good Waveclear, good speed and at least one gapcloser/CC depending on Botlane. SO again, if your bot screws up (like everytime), it´s alot more likely to turn this as a champ who can clear waves without using halve of his mana-bar and needs an hour to walk bot! x'D

It´s kinda sad: Champs supposed to be High Risk/High Reward are Save picks as well. And riddiculously risky champs (especially when first picked) can feel really unrewarding to master.

Well at least quiet everything is viable atm, so I wont complain more. ^^ Sure it can be annoying to always play against the same wiry champs but hey, you learn how to play against them. (Cant even remeber when I lost the last time to an Annie or Ahri) xD

Poop JellySep 19, 20152 votes

Mid mobile champs have upper advantage vs mages, doesn't matter low or high mana costs, but mages have more impact in bigger fights than just laning phase.

Personally, I think why we have the meta we currently have is because bruisers/mobile assassins are strong, but they're beatable. It's not gonna be fair with spammable mages combining with 'good' mana items while just kick back and relax from afar without worrying about mana issues.

Baseball3bSep 21, 20152 votes

A lot of it has to do with the current state of mana/resource balancing. Why take Orianna who goes OOM after 2 combos early game when you can clear entire waves with your spells and have your energy back up by the time next one arrives as Zed ? The item 3174 nerfs a while ago certainly didn't help

Designwise, mana SHOULD be a gate but at the same time, mana-less champions shouldn't be able to do the same things as champions with mana. (i.e. wave clear for example). If they are allowed to, then they should operate under similar resource gating as champs with mana and currently, that's not happening for the most part.

Stars ShaperSep 19, 20151 votes

Now I'm focusing on others but I played lots of Xerath and Velkoz mid (on Normals, sry if I'm not LCS) and I must say that it never went like "Omg I can't do anything because resources".

Both have pretty solid poke/waveclear and can zone enemies and if you get a nice E in you are able to either get a kill or force the enemy out of the lane making you able to outfarm him. It's a matter of exploiting your safeness and provoke when you are ready to unleash hell on your enemy.

Edit: I go full offensive on them, full AP/MP Runes and full damage oriented masteries building item 3028 if against AP or item 3165 if against AD.

ModWulf HelhammerSep 19, 20151 votes

You probably shouldn't go for a completely damage orientated rune page. Generally the standard is MPen reds, Armor yellow, MR blues, and the AP quints. For masteries, for mages it's generally best to go for 21/0/9, so that you can get the biscuits skill from utility.

Stars ShaperSep 20, 20151 votes

For now I find myself pretty well with it. Long Range squishy mages aren't done for lasting but to avoid contact at all so I'm trying to capitalize on the damage factor as a deterrent for any engage that doesn't bring for the enemy a sure kill.

To aoid getting instagibbed after lane fase or for ganks I keep my lane super warded and build Zhonya if I see I am in peril right after the first mana item. Otherwise having a full offensive character helps yous ecuring your lane and makes your TF potential really scary.

HugifySep 19, 20151 votes

Because people realize how broken damage+mobility Is.

TreeofwarSep 19, 20151 votes

the people like ziggs and vel and syndra do not have a lot of mobility in comparison and mid is all about roaming and staying in lane to get the advantage because mid champs burst hard and fast so if you can stay in lane longer to get more cs and items then you will win.

MudintheWaterSep 19, 20151 votes

Mid is the easiest lane to gank, and most of the time the easiest lane to snowball. Additionally, mid is supposed to gank bot frequently, and top occasionally. This makes champions with a lot of mobility like Ahri great because they have mobility to escape ganks as well as gank.

People play Annie because she is Annie and they like facerolling.

Mecha MaIphiteSep 19, 20151 votes

Brand and Syndra are burst mages. You could also argue that Vel is a burst mage too.

Anivia is the only "true" sustained damage in there. Sustained damage people are like karthus, azir and cassiopeia.

TBakesSep 19, 20151 votes

I think there are a few reasons for this shift. I think AD champions in general are powerful right now because of the itemization available. At lower elos, I think that many mid laners run into resource management issues, so resourceless champions are easier to stay in lane longer without backing. I also think the mobile champions can escape ganks, roam to other lanes, and tower dive much easier, which is a huge advantage. The same champs that have these strengths snowball very easily, so a slight advantage turns into a shutdown of the mage. The AD champions can destroy the tower faster, as well. This is an advantage for the team.

ModWulf HelhammerSep 19, 20151 votes

Meanwhile I main Xerath mid and he's my best champion. Some of the highest mana costs in the game

Kat HeadSep 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile I main Xerath mid and he's my best champion. Some of the highest mana costs in the game

If only you had some type of passive ability that would make mana irrelevant in the laning phase.

@op I see more stupid Anivia and awesome in the last 3 months than I did all of season 4. Velkoz also does not really have mana problems, Ahri seems to run out of mana far faster than VelKog.

Anivia and Karthus are so good right now, both of them take (Anivia a little more, must master wall placement and combo) some practice to master.

I think immobile mages are played less because they are generally less fun than mobile champions. I really enjoy playing Karthus and several other mid lane mages, but as long as Katarina exists (even in her weaker state) I will pick her because she is just more fun to play. This has nothing to do with mana management (for me), her game play is just more fun.

Rand0mH3r0XSep 20, 20151 votes

I don't mid main either, however, manaless champions have more poking ability while having low range and high CD.

Champions like Katarina do a ton of damage, but has longer cooldowns than say Lissandra when it comes to Q poking.

Manaless champions also require the need for spell weaving for maximum damage, where as Mana champions have all their damage in Q or R. Think of Akali where she has to Q and AA to deal damage, wheras Lux can throw a Q, and deal a lot of damage.

As far as manaless champions go, the only ranged one is Kennen, and he has very short range. Yasuo, Zed, Katarina, Akali, etc, are all melee; Mana champions like Ryze and Azir have ranged auto attacks.

In the meta since S4, assassin champions have gained an ability to quickly execute low enemy champions. Therefore, if manaless champions can poke you down for a long period of time they can eventually take you out. Mana champions are dependent on mana and eventually become powerless to stop energy/manaless champions after running out of mana and going low on health.

Basically, if the enemy laner can outsustain you, they can eventually outpoke you and execute you. This can be countered by Mana dependent by waiting till maybe level 3-5 to hard poke enemy champions. When the poke ability reaches it's second rank, that's the best time to use it, and not before.

Ahri has pretty high mana costs. Poking with Ahri is only efficient with her Q, and not spamming any other ability. By saving mana for Q skill shots only, and selectively choosing when to strike, this can maximize Ahri's use of her Mana. This could go for all champions.

That's about all the information I can spew at the moment. I hope this helps.

The Yetii RiderSep 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As far as manaless champions go, the only ranged one is Kennen, and he has very short range. Yasuo, Zed, Katarina, Akali, etc, are all melee; Mana champions like Ryze and Azir have ranged auto attacks.

You forgot Gnar and Vladimir

Rand0mH3r0XSep 20, 20151 votes

I don't think I've ever seen a Gnar mid, and it's been awhile since I've seen Vlad mid either. But yes, they are ranged, too. Still short ranged compared to Annie or Lux.

The Yetii RiderSep 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't think I've ever seen a Gnar mid, and it's been awhile since I've seen Vlad mid either. But yes, they are ranged, too. Still short ranged compared to Annie or Lux.

The only reason Vlad doesn't go mid is because he shuts down top laners much harder. Vlad is not incapable of going mid, his sustain and wave clear works just fine there as well, and with his Pool he can escape Zed ultimates and dodge Yasuo tornadoes just like Fizz.

Rand0mH3r0XSep 20, 20151 votes

My initial points still stand though. Although, Melee AP champs typically have some type of evade, like Kassasdin's Rift Walk or Katarina's teleport. In Mord's case, he has a shield. There's tradeoff everywhere and Riot calculates most of this by a Matrix that I've never see released. I also don't know how they value certain things either, but we can infer that CD, Cost, and Mana are directly related somehow, and how either of those relate to Health is anybody's guess.

Actually xPekeSep 20, 20151 votes

I main mid mostly, although i'm not your platinum level player guy

Syndra is still pretty strong, been playing her a bit recently on different accouns (when she way free2play) Ahri is on the strong side, although her mana costs aren't that low, but they aren't high either

Anivia is just BS and needs a rework.. like her playstyle isn't fun at all "huhh durr E + R" Vel'koz is good, just extremely underrated because no mobility Same with brand

Baseball3bSep 21, 20151 votes

As a Syndra main, she's generally mediocre at best in the meta right now unless your really know how to play her (like any other champion). The Q nerfs (which were a knee-jerk reaction to her broken E hitbox) did a number on her lane phase and she was never given compensation.

Add that to the Athene's/general mana nerfs and she's pretty underwhelming at the moment