Boards›Gameplay

"There is not enough individual agency..."

DOUBLE TAPPED E··10 votes·4,927 views

So here's the beef: People say they can't win games because even though they do well in lane, their teammates do poorly and they can't carry.

What about the enemy player who stomped your teammates? Do they deserve to lose even though they played well? They got a lead, and they pushed that lead as far as they could, and used it to take over the game. I don't know man, that seems like a lot of individual agency to me.

If someone gets caught out, there's more than one person at fault. Sure maybe your teammate shouldn't have been in that area, but it's ALSO the enemy team's fault for warding that area, and being nearby to capitalize on the mistake. The enemy team is being rewarded for GOOD PLAY and your team is being punished for POOR PLAY. That seems like a pretty fair way to do things, rewarding good play and punishing poor play.

I don't know man, I'm just sick of all the whining from people who look at this game one-dimensionally, and can't see that sometimes the enemy team deserves to win because they played well, and that it isn't just about you losing "even though you didn't deserve to lose because your teammates."

12 Comments

ZerglingOne6 votes

I would say it's the opposite. It's often too easy to 1v2 or 2v3 when ahead.

"Don't gank losing lanes." is actually fairly solid advice a lot of the time.

This is the agency many people are talking about. Where if their teammate is losing, there's not a lot they can do about it because leaving your lane can be so detrimental to your play/advancement curve and realistically doesn't especially help them.

DOUBLE TAPPED E3 votes

Being able to 1v2 is the player's reward for establishing and maintaining such a large lead, and having the knowledge of both their champion and the enemy champions to pull it off.

Edit: Obviously people disagree, so let me get this straight. I've been pounding the hell out of my lane opponent, I'm up 1 full item on everyone in the game, and I'm playing a champion that is designed to fight multiple opponents, as part of their champion identity.

Are you saying I should not, in this situation, be able to 1v2?

ZerglingOne1 votes

[{quoted}](name=x9 Kat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JOzpwMnm,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T03:41:03.916+0000)

Being able to 1v2 is the player's reward for establishing and maintaining such a large lead, and having the knowledge of both their champion and the enemy champions to pull it off.

Edit: Obviously people disagree, so let me get this straight. I've been pounding the hell out of my lane opponent, I'm up 1 full item on everyone in the game, and I'm playing a champion that is designed to fight multiple opponents, as part of their champion identity.

Are you saying I should not, in this situation, be able to 1v2?

That's the thing though, it doesn't take "being up 1 full item" usually all it requires is being up 1 level, sometimes maybe 2.

If you have a full 2000-3000 gold lead, then sure. We're talking about when games are typically decided though, which is early on.

Someone kills you, goes up a level on you while you limp your way back to lane, and then you and your jungler have little chance to 2v1 that person because they're probably going to have a lead on both of you, which is in this case enough to take you both out.

While this feels good for the agency of the character in the 1v2 in this case, it feels like shit when someone actually tries to help and also gets screwed. It makes both the losing top laner, and the jungle feel like there's nothing they can do to stop the snowball that's growing out of control. it feels like absolute shit.

I feel, as an opinion, LoL is best when someone can win even engagements, but loses in a fight of numbers...unless of course one team has enough of a lead to mitigate that...but that shouldn't even be until past 15 minutes IMO.

DOUBLE TAPPED E1 votes

Alright let's say Darius just killed... I don't know... Gnar, right? Darius is level 3, full HP with a Doran's Blade and no pots. Gnar is level 2, full HP with Doran's Blade and 2 pots.

Level 3 Lee Sin comes up to gank just as Darius is getting his wave under turret. Darius can win this, but he probably has to hit his Q heal on both of them, and they have to miss something, or time something poorly.

Now in my mind, this is fine. If Lee Sin and Gnar play this carefully and well, they can kill the Darius. If Darius plays this carefully and well, he can kill one or both of them and possibly live. If all 3 of them play the fight 100% perfectly, nobody will die at all.

I don't understand, do you want the game to just go "there are 2 players on red team, and 1 player on blue team in this fight. Blue team loses" and then Darius just dies from 9999 true damage that strikes him from the sky because he was outnumbered?

ZerglingOne1 votes

[{quoted}](name=x9 Kat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JOzpwMnm,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-24T08:32:25.176+0000)

Alright let's say Darius just killed... I don't know... Gnar, right? Darius is level 3, full HP with a Doran's Blade and no pots. Gnar is level 2, full HP with Doran's Blade and 2 pots.

Level 3 Lee Sin comes up to gank just as Darius is getting his wave under turret. Darius can win this, but he probably has to hit his Q heal on both of them, and they have to miss something, or time something poorly.

Now in my mind, this is fine. If Lee Sin and Gnar play this carefully and well, they can kill the Darius. If Darius plays this carefully and well, he can kill one or both of them and possibly live. If all 3 of them play the fight 100% perfectly, nobody will die at all.

I don't understand, do you want the game to just go "there are 2 players on red team, and 1 player on blue team in this fight. Blue team loses" and then Darius just dies from 9999 true damage that strikes him from the sky because he was outnumbered?

No, but I expect the ability to help a struggling teammate without being absurdly penalized for it. If we're doing real talk on the subject? Like how can that be implemented? Homeguard should probably exist and persist from minute 0 of the game...at least the movement speed portion of it. The increased healing can come later.

If you really want to incentivize helping, maybe only enable it before its current activation time if you've gotten a recent kill/assist.

DOUBLE TAPPED E2 votes

If you are the Lee Sin in the example, you do have the ability to help a struggling teammate without being penalized for it, you just have to do it right. If you do it wrong, and end up contributing to a double kill, you will be penalized for it, because you did it wrong...

Eedat3 votes

Well duh. That's how people work. Good things should only apply to them and negative ones aren't their fault. It's like when people don't think twice about a win streak but bitch and moan up a storm for a loss streak. The win streak was obviously deserved and shouldn't be questioned yet the loss streak is riot actively forcing them to lose. See how this works?

Illabethe1 votes

But then there's the times where the other team wins for doing poorly, as well. That's where I have a beef. Relative to a specific elo, your team does indeed feed compared to the supposed skill level of an elo. The other team just does less bad.

TinkerTantrums1 votes

[{quoted}](name=x9 Kat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JOzpwMnm,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-24T03:05:04.156+0000)

So here's the beef: People say they can't win games because even though they do well in lane, their teammates do poorly and they can't carry.

The forums are flooded with people ranting about the agency of other teammates, ruining "their" game. Looks to me like the community expresses a desire to have less responsibility for game outcomes rather than more, doesn't it?

https://i.imgur.com/AwHvT6Q.jpg[/img]

Daddy Ants1 votes

You want individual agency?

Play Yorick or Riven

The thigh guy1 votes

No. The issue is how easily one person can lose the game, and how difficult is for one person to carry the game.

PhearBunny1 votes

You can determine 90% of matches from the load screen. Which team has the more team fight oriented comp? Odds are theyre going to win. Do one of the teams have a completely incapable of functioning comp? Nearly a guaranteed loss.

Only time you cant accurately predict the outcome, is when both teams pick the same general comps.

I don't think individual agency is an issue, I think team composition is just 10000% more important than we make it out to be.

Doesn't matter if you go 10-0 in your top lane, and all your other lanes win as well. If your champ select broke your comp, your 10-0 lead just straight up isn't going to matter once the later half of mid game comes around.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by DOUBLE TAPPED E

Tahm Kench should swallow enemy targets that die from his W damage.
Story, Art, & Sound46 comments
148
votes
The real reason Twisted Treeline failed.
Gameplay84 comments
120
votes
Playing in Gold be like:
Memes & Games15 comments
61
votes
So, the enemy Jungler is "literally" sitting in your top lane brush camping you all game...
Gameplay131 comments
58
votes
Petition to toggle true hitboxes for all abilities.
Gameplay26 comments
42
votes
Dear Botlane: There is a REASON I didn't ask for help doing dragon.
Gameplay27 comments
39
votes