qq, assassins can burst me down when I'm a squishy that's by myself

Astôlfo··4 votes·1,133 views

Wake up call, assassins are sort of... meant to do that. Wow, isn't that a surprise? They generally can't shred through tanks unless they have true damage of some sort, or build ArPen/MaPen. With the latter, building Pen items means they have to forgo other actual items that would help them... you know, burst down people, in return for trying to take down tanks, which they generally aren't good at unless they get really fed (which then shouldn't be much of a surprise). Because sure, they can build Pen, but the tanks can build a lot more health and Armor/MR because that's their whole itemization. Assassins would focus on things to just boost their AD or AP or Crit or AS or such, and maybe have a few Pen items.

Instead of like, being too lazy and just getting upset that assassins can burst squishies easily, which is their entire point of existence, why not try looking up counters and figuring out how to actually get around them? Squishies by definition have low health/armor/MR, which is why they are more vulnerable to being killed. Assassins specialize in burst damage. Put the two together and use simple logic. Assassins should be able to burst squishies down fairly easily.

On another note, most assassins are squishy themselves, which is another reason why they specialize in taking out single targets and not much else. If they leap into a group or a teamfight, that's essentially asking to die in most cases. They are, however, really good at picking off people who stray too far or wander around by themselves or drop too low in health. Know why? That's the entire goal they're meant to do. And yes, they do it very well - usually.

Now, sure, there are some fair points about some assassins being a bit silly or potentially a bit too strong in some parts, that, I concede. Something I see a lot though, is just generally complaining every assassin or the assassin champion type itself in general is too overpowered or unhealthy or stupid or what have you. Besides the true damage champions I mentioned before (like Fiora), like I said, they really can't burst through tanks. Coincidentally, the people who also seem to complain are the squishies who expect to not get bursted down when they get caught out by someone who is meant to specialize in that.

So I see threads and discussions for example, with Sterak's or other similar items being well-liked and supported and being called fine when it is used on squishies. The thing is, the item itself was built for tanks to help increase survivability further and make them tankier. They weren't meant for ADCs/squishies/etc to become near unkillable while bursting down people then just running away once it gets a bit eerie. If anything, this is the kind of thing that is actually being abused, and is unhealthy. Another example would be Blue Ezreal. He seems to have a habit of finding broken uses through various items that weren't really meant to be broken like that. A solution I've seen was like, put a health cap or melee only or similar on things like Iceborn Gauntlet (because it makes his Q essentially an AoE slow). The item itself is fine with other melee champions or the sort. Nerfing Ezreal by himself won't fix the problem with his synergy with the items. The solution would be to stop said synergy by preventing access to it.

Squishies are meant to generally be that. Squishy. In return, they can output lots of damage. That's their entire function. When they get near unkillable because of an extremely cheap item that completely denies burst champions as well as still outputting loads of damage because of the rest of their items, I'd say it's fair enough to call it unhealthy/silly/etc. Imagine that.

"i don't like when squishy champs can do what they're meant to do and burst me down because i'm too lazy to figure out counterplays and how to actually get around them and would rather just qq and demand nerfs" - a squishy champ player

On an ending note, I fully expect this to be downvoted by all the multitudes of illogical assassin haters who complain across the board without actual fair reasons, but sure, go at it. Prove me right. :^)

Like I did note before, there are some champions and problems with certain assassins, but just blindly calling them all "OP" and demanding nerfs when you fail to even bother to look at any of the possible counter-options just seems sort of biased and limited.

tl;dr - Don't just blindly call assassins OP for doing their job when you're one of their best possible targets, stuff with items and synergy and supposed game health rants and complaints

17 Comments

Nogrim4 votes

the problem is that assassins output so much damage now that everything short of a rammus or malphite is classified as a squishy. the changes to how snares and other CC work has made it much easier for assassins to escape (caps and shorter durations on quite a few of them)

their balance on those fronts are pretty out of whack right now

Astôlfo1 votes

Assassins are generally built to obliterate one target then disappear again. And I do concede that their damage outputs can be somewhat ridiculous at times. I'd also like to contest that most people don't go full tank or tanky bruiser now usually though, which also contributes to it.

By focusing more on damage, it means you're less squishy. The squishier you are, the easier it is for assassins to pick you off. On a side note, Malphite is extremely tanky and Rammus literally lives off armor and has one of the highest armor stats iirc.

Full tanks, as in actual tanks or supports or the like, are hard to burst off without help lowering their health prior or some sort of CC on the tanks or just being very ahead in terms of items/kills/etc.

Nogrim2 votes

that is sort of my point, assassins should be picking off ADCs and some of the mages, but the current problem is they are able to burst everyone but ram and malph.

the problem i guess also comes from the extremely low cool downs on some of these assassins combos. i agree with your assessment that assassins should be able to drop their targets, the problem is most of them are capable of doing this to two or more targets in most situation due to the low cooldowns, high burst and prevalence of escape abilities.

currently this balance is far more in favour of reward than risk

Astôlfo1 votes

Again, assassins don't just burst tanks down for no reason if they even manage to. People keep using that argument as if it's actually realistic, which it's not. If the tank and the assassin are actually anywhere near the same level/item standard, assassins can't freaking burst down a tank, at least not without true damage, or an extensive amount of - expensive - armor pen/MR pen, which means they sacrificed items that would've helped them burst their intended targets more. Also, even with ArmorPen/MRPen, tanks can build far more of said armor/MR/health, making it not really effective without being in a good lead. Unless the tank decided to not build tanky, at which point it shouldn't be a surprise. The only way they'd ever manage it is if either the assassin was extremely fed and ahead of said tank, in which case it shouldn't be a surprise and people have no right to complain, or if the tank was already weakened or caught out and trapped or something, which would have made them vulnerable and weak enough to be picked off. People keep using the most extreme examples as if it's perfectly standard and that's irritating as hell. Assassins don't just go willy-nilly bursting down full-health tanks instantly for no reason and/or trade off.

Some assassins can chain burst, but again, that's limited to squishies or already weakened targets, why on Earth is that not allowed? And there are limitations. Like with Kat for example, they have to get said kills/assists to keep chaining because of CDR passive. High burst isn't an argument, that's literally what the assassin is made to do. Said escape abilities are usually used to close said gap in the first place to help burst, meaning they can't just use it to get away. If you were already far enough off from your team/weak enough/etc that they didn't have to use it, that's your own fault, not theirs.

Do I really need to go and list the downsides to individual assassins one by one?

novac37212 votes

I think a point of frustration (if not an actual problem) is that, if they get fed, they can burst any champion, tank or not. Which would be fine, were it not for the fact that they get fed very easily. Most players can play an assassin (which one depends on the player), and get fed, without being very good with the champion. I'm not sure where mages fit in, but it should work like rock-paper-scissors. assassin should beat ADC, ADC beats tank, tank beats assassin. If that isn't the result 8-9 times out of 10, it means there's an imbalance of power (which can be fun at times, but shouldn't be the standard).

Astôlfo1 votes

The thing is though, they usually have terrible early game. Once they hit 6/their first big item, they can usually get at least one kill on the enemy laner. With that, it nets them advantage that can begin to snowball. Additionally, in mid (where they almost always are), it's a solo 1v1 lane most of the time, excluding the jungler. Therefore, they began to get fed potentially very fast if the enemy jungler does not step in to manage.

Therefore, the other laners (top, who generally play poke back and forth because dying once there can snowball a large amount as well, and bot/support where ADCs are countered by said assassins can have trouble. The key is denying them that snowball by having a good jungler presence and not letting yourself step into their perfect playing field/overextend. Assassins love to punish on mistakes, which is why people can complain a lot.

Tank beats assassin, but if assassin beats ADC enough times, they can beat tank because they'll become strong very fast, because they snowball off solely kills. Bad assassin games can go terribly for the assassin. And the reason most players can "play an assassin without much experience" is because they capitalize on the enemy's mistakes, which are prone in all lower levels/ELOS.

novac37212 votes

See this is why people are annoyed though. shouldn't league be about team play AND individual skill? there shouldn't be an entire class of champions that are pretty much guaranteed to win any 1v1 unless they get camped. This might be a crazy idea, but maybe, just maybe, the more skilled player should win in a 1v1 lane (barring direct counters, like Galio vs AP for example). Cause guess what, the majority of players are in lower elos. If I make a mistake, my opponent should be able to punish me, sure. If my opponent makes a mistake, I should be able to punish them. But if ONE PLAYER dying ONCE (early game) can make your entire team lose the game, I call that bad game design. assassins should do what they're meant to do, KILL SQUISHIES. Anything more, they should have to work for like everyone else. They should have to be skilled with the champion.

Astôlfo1 votes

Now see, I do agree with that. Some assassins should not be as safe as they are right now. They are all about high-risk high-reward, or at least, they should be.

And sure, skill should win, but like I'm saying, and like you're saying, Assassins have said advantage and are the counter to such 1v1s. They hope to output enough burst to kill their opponent as fast as possible. After that, they immediately become a lot weaker, as they are still inherently squishy and usually do not have getaways left that they didn't already blow on said burst.

And yes I know most players, myself included, are relatively low-leveled or skilled on the large scale of things. And sure, either side can punish mistakes. It's that assassins are specifically built to CAPITALIZE on that mistake and lash back extremely hard when it happens.

One death early game doesn't automatically doom the game. But what it does and should do, is put some momentum. The assassin thus gains advantage. The other player is likely upset or trying to regain their lost advantage as soon as possible. When that clouds their judgment and they slip up, the assassin takes advantage. It's a downwards spiral.

If people remain calm and play safe and get jungler help early instead of getting upset and losing their minds and making more mistakes which add up after that, assassins would be shut down easier. It's because of the very fact they take advantage of mistakes which tilt the other player because they know it was their mistake, which leads them to make more, that assassins can SEEM op.

novac37211 votes

I never said assassins were OP. But assassins should not be able to 1v1 tanks (as a general rule). But the fact of the matter is, right now, they can. That ''one kill'' statement, i admit, is kind of an exaggeration. But after an assassin gets a kill, you either need to be very skilled, lucky, or have a jungler camp your lane. Or you will NOT make a comeback. Mostly because assassins either have innately powerful/safe kits (like Fizz) or will be able to get power spikes off 1 kill (Zed +item 3142 /item 3134 )

And as we've already agreed, the ''skill'' part is not a reliable method. So then, luck? as in, they have to make a mistake? that would mean they are OP, were it not for option 3, have your jungler camp your lane. which sounds simple, except they have every other lane to worry about, plus dealing with the enemy jungler (if it's MasterYi they need to counter jungle him)

Besides, like I said, there should NOT be an entire class of champions who REQUIRE someone to camp, or else you lose. But the main problem I see is, one of your other statements is completely false; ''they are weak pre-6/first big item'' against a poke heavy champion, their mobility lets them dodge while the opponent runs out of mana, if the opponent tries to build damage, they'll lose most trades since most assassins, as I said, are able to dodge fairly easily or simply win trades. Not to mention champions like Zed and Talon ALSO have poke against tankier champions. Assassins are by no means weak early. The point they become weak, is 40 minutes into the game when they run into a tank with massive health and armor/MR. But most games don't last that long.

Here's the thing: I love assassins. They have high mobility and high damage, which makes them very fun to play. And I understand this is an AD meta right now, making AD champions, and as a result assassins, very strong. I'm hoping mages get some significant buffs with the immobile mage update, to help balance things out. So I don't wan't to complain too much. But assassins should, you know , assassinate. Not duel. And saying that it's perfectly fine for an assassin to easily (because of the nature of assassins and how they snowball, I know) burst a tank early to mid game (ok maybe not very early, but that's true for most champions) is, no offense, just plain dumb.

Astôlfo1 votes

I never said you said they were OP, I'm going off what the public seem to say. And I mean, both sides will inevitably make mistakes. The assassin is just a lot better at capitalizing off that.

And yes I know, some are strong. I enjoy assassins too, but yes, I do see the problems. Zed's waveclear is another issue, as well as the issue with energy/cheap non-mana sources in general. And lots of champs in this game snowball, and snowballing really hard is a valid issue I do realize.

novac37211 votes

I think the ''It's OP'' reaction is mostly because people are kinda annoyed by, what I think we can agree are, legitimate criticisms. And they feel that riot won't respond to a more moderate stance. I mean they're a company. It seems to make sense to think they won't respond to anything less than a public outcry, since it would seem more likely to lose them money.

And frankly riot hasn't exactly shown consistency in responding to either form of feedback (seeing as they rarely respond to it at all). I think we should, as a fanbase, try to communicate what it is we want. It makes riot more money, and gives us a better game. So it would be a win-win.

All this to say, you should consider why public opinion is the way it is, and see if you can communicate it better. The longer we're divided on topics that we all seem to agree on (to some extent), the longer it will take to get a positive response that improves the game for most, if not everyone.

whether that's nerfs to some champions, reworks, or buffs.

Astôlfo1 votes

Except said "legitimate" arguments are illogical or filled with unrealistic or extreme circumstances the vast majority of the time. I am fine with keeping an open mind but when people stubbornly and blindly demand nerfs because they're too close-minded to see anything else besides "wow they're so op must nerf", it gets really irritating.

novac37211 votes

{quoted}

Except said "legitimate" arguments are illogical or filled with unrealistic or extreme circumstances the vast majority of the time. I am fine with keeping an open mind but when people stubbornly and blindly demand nerfs because they're too close-minded to see anything else besides "wow they're so op must nerf", it gets really irritating.

I think you misunderstood... people complain in illogical arguments, or extreme circumstances. I under stand that. What I was trying to communicate was that those illogical arguments are based on more logical ones. So, while they might be wrong, they might also have a point, or be hinting at something that actually is a problem.

PDE5 Inhib1 votes

You made some decent points. Others, not so much.

{quoted}

qq, assassins can burst me down when I'm a squishy that's by myself

And by squishy you mean 98% of champs in the game.

unless they have true damage of some sort, or build ArPen

Uh, so buliding ArPen makes it fine to shred through tanks so easily?

With the latter, building Pen items means they have to forgo other actual items that would help them... you know, burst down people

item 3156 item 3147 item 3142 I'm sorry, which of these items is bad on assassins? This isn't even all the armor pen items.

Instead of like, being too lazy and just getting upset that assassins can burst all champs easily, which is their entire point of existence, why not try looking up counters and figuring out how to actually get around them?

Probably because the "counters" are to build armor, which means you're going to get shoved outta lane and lose many cs because you don't have any mana regen or AP to wave clear. You typically can't build Zhonyas before assassins can kill you anyway.

Squishies by definition have low health/armor/MR, which is why they are more vulnerable to being killed. Assassins specialize in burst damage. Put the two together and use simple logic. Assassins should be able to burst squishies down fairly easily.

Then why does Zed have awesome wave clear, mage like poke, and an extremely safe laning phase if his specialty is to burst?

On another note, most assassins are squishy themselves

Yeah, most are. Except Fiora can build tank and still burst people

So I see threads and discussions for example, with Sterak's or other similar items being well-liked and supported and being called fine when it is used on squishies. The thing is, the item itself was built for tanks to help increase survivability further and make them tankier. They weren't meant for ADCs/squishies/etc to become near unkillable while bursting down people then just running away once it gets a bit eerie. If anything, this is the kind of thing that is actually being abused, and is unhealthy.

This thoroughly confuses me. In one point, you say that people are just being lazy for not finding a way to counter assassins and that assassins target low health/no resistance players to do their job. Then you say it's unhealthy and being abused when a squishy buys a defensive item?

Another example would be Blue Ezreal. He seems to have a habit of finding broken uses through various items that weren't really meant to be broken like that. A solution I've seen was like, put a health cap or melee only or similar on things like Iceborn Gauntlet (because it makes his Q essentially an AoE slow). The item itself is fine with other melee champions or the sort. Nerfing Ezreal by himself won't fix the problem with his synergy with the items. The solution would be to stop said synergy by preventing access to it.

Blue Ezreal sucks lol.

Squishies are meant to generally be that. Squishy. In return, they can output lots of damage. That's their entire function. When they get near unkillable because of an extremely cheap item that completely denies burst champions as well as still outputting loads of damage because of the rest of their items, I'd say it's fair enough to call it unhealthy/silly/etc. Imagine that.

"i don't like when squishy champs can do what they're meant to do and burst me down because i'm too lazy to figure out counterplays and how to actually get around them and would rather just qq and demand nerfs" - a squishy champ player

This is exactly what I meant. You say that a squishy building defense is unhealthy, yet a squishy not building defense is lazy? Do you realize how stupid you sound from these two points?

On an ending note, I fully expect this to be downvoted by all the multitudes of illogical assassin haters who complain across the board without actual fair reasons, but sure, go at it. Prove me right. :^)

I downvote every thread that people say "this will probably get downvoted" or something of the like. You're fishing for upvotes with a statement like that. Who the hell cares about upvotes?

It's also pretty stupid that everyone who downvotes you is an "illogical assassin hater who complains across the board without actual fair reasons". Like, no. Your post is just incredibly inaccurate. That's why you're getting downvoted.

Astôlfo1 votes

(Ugh, had to rewrite when browser crashed.) In response to each of your points:

  1. lolno, not even close to 98%
  2. Let's do common sense. Tanks build armor against AD burst. AD burst builds armor pen in retaliation. Thus, obviously armor will be less effective. Enough burst + armor pen = it hurts tanks a fair bit. Still nothing like 100-0ing squishies they're meant to kill. Tanks will survive with half health or so the vast majority of the time in this kind of case, where both players are on even footing.
  3. Good job listing pretty much the only generic 3 AD burst items that have some armor pen. Almost all of the other armor pen items are specifically for that, which is the point you missed. Armor pen is useless to non-tanks because they won't have it.
  4. Or you could look up and learn actual counters instead of attempting to make an ignorant, sarcastic remark that shows how little you actually try.
  5. Did you… fail to read where I said there are exceptions? Zed is one.
  6. Read above.
  7. I said Sterak's is unhealthy because it should not be the way it is. In the first point, it's counterintuitive come mid/late game, where frontline tanks are supposed to absorb damage while squishies deal it out from the back. But tanks go bruiser instead or squishies leave and wander out, then they wonder why they die. What a surprise. If you are weakened and/or a squishy, you really should not be able to survive an assassin's burst at all, when you get caught out. That's their whole job. Except, Sterak's lets squishies survive that easily and just run away, for an extremely cheap price. It's a complete denial of the assassin class itself, not just countering. Sterak's on tanks would be fine, since it wouldn't trigger only when they'd drop critically low and should die.
  8. I'm sure he is, with his 52% winrate and 35% playrate. Please, tell me more.
  9. sigh Building pure defense (not things like Rylai's for example) is fine, even if counterintuitive (for squishies). I said Sterak's specifically is unhealthy. Do you know how to read? Do you realize how stupid you sound from what you say? I never said squishies have to build defense or they're lazy. There IS counters outside of defense, smart one. facepalm
  10. I don't care about upvotes, I was saying that because people obviously will blindly downvote the thread, and I find that amusing that it would just prove my point about their blind hate.
  11. Also, I never said all downvoters are that. I said I expect those people to be downvoters. Do you know basic English? I'm starting to doubt it severely, given your lack of understanding it at all in your post. And sure, you're free to downvote it, but without any reason, it's as blind and meaningless as all the other blind haters.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

PDE5 Inhib1 votes
  1. basically aside from rammus and malph, so yes.
  2. ? I was just saying that with armor pen, assassins do tons of damage to tanks. It's the way armor pen works. So assassins aren't really bad against tanks.
  3. How many more armor pen items do you need? You said building armor pen hurts you in the sense that you can't do your job of killing squishies. These 3 armor pen items are enough to rekt tanks, and are EXTREMELY good against squishies as well. So what are you even trying to say? You're saying armor pen is useless against non-tanks. Sure, only if the armor pen isn't tied into already good items...which it currently is. 4&7) Lol. You are still going with the idea that building defense is cheap and unhealthy, yet not building it is lazy. 5&6) Sure, you can write of Zed and Fiora as "exceptions", but those are the AD assassins that people are bitching about. I don't see many people bitching about Talon, because he actually has weaknesses to make up for his strengths.
  4. 52% win rate isn't exactly OP by any means. Ezreal ADC has a total of <34% playrate, and not all of those build blue Ezreal. So I'm not sure how you figure he has a 35% playrate. You can also consider the fact that Ez has a 55% win rate against Jihn, which accounts for over 8,000 of his games played. Jihn is new and people suck with him. Gotta look at more than winrate, bud.
  5. Wait, so they have to use counters outside of building defense? You said people that don't counter are lazy. Defense is a counter. So obviously not building defense as a counter is lazy. And you can't call someone stupid while saying "there IS counters". Subject verb disagreement makes you look like you have the intelligence of a 3rd grader, "smart one". It's like saying "omg ur sooo stoopid". 10&11) You're just rambling now.
Astôlfo1 votes
  1. lolk, so let's just forget about all the other tanks and durable champions, and all the Zed counters
  2. Assassins aren't techncially awful, but if they still can't kill a tank even with armor pen/MR pen because they can't take off more than like 50% at most, they really aren't good, because they're not doing their actual job.
  3. Again, unless tanks actually build FULL TANK, the tank argument is meaningless. Bruiser items have both tank aspects as well as damage, but lessen the tank aspect for damage as well. Full tanks are nearly unkillable even with an assassin and 1-2 armor pen items if they have any idea what they're doing. Also, armor pen/MR pen is meaningless against non-tanks because no one builds Armor/MR except tanks, so you might as well build a normal AD/AP/whatever item that helps. Armor Pen items are: Last Whisper, Regards, Maw, Mortal, Serrated, and Youmuu's. Maw, Serrated, and Youmuu's are literally the only somewhat more generic items that would help against non-tanks. Everything else is specifically anti-tanks. Maw has awful armor pen and is more just anti-AP in general. Serrated is a low-tier item that builds into others. Youmuu's is the only final-tier item that gives good AD as well as decent armor pen and is okay because of its other passives and its active. That's the point I'm making. 4/7. Lol. You are still going with an inability of reading and/or understanding basic English. Good luck to your life when you can't understand what people say, or just decide to twist everything into what you want. :^) 5/6. Except people seem to bitch about literally every assassin. And Zed has flaws/downsides of his own too, which I won't bother with in here right now. Also Fiora's skill ceiling makes good Fiora players greatly different from just normal Freelo players.
  4. Never said 52% winrate is OP, it's just above average. Blue Ez is a rather popular Ezreal build. Misread playrate, or maybe it updated, it's 33.86%. Still one of the highest in the entire game. Winrate is also averaged from all his games, so yeah. Not sure where you're getting >8000 games thing from, champion.gg just shows play-rate percent, mind linking the site(s)?
  5. Um, wow. Just. Wow. Do you know what "playstyle" means? Or are you so close-minded you can't accept anything other than items that have to completely neuter an entire class of champions and/or direct neutering nerfs to the champions themselves? Defense is ONE OF the counters, but it can also be COUNTERED BACK. If you, I dunno, actually look up playstyle weaknesses or downsides to the CHAMPION THEMSELVES, you could counter their playstyle with a playstyle that is bad for them. It doesn't necessarily have to be a champion that counters them. Almost all assassins have playstyle downsides or vulnerabilities that almost, if not all, champions can take advantage of. But of course, people just want to be a lazy shit and not look it up or learn how, so they complain that assassins are OP. :^) And grammar Nazi much? It was just a mistake because I was typing quickly because I had to retype the whole thing when it crashed and I was busy with other things. Do you really have so little arguments that you have to resort to a single grammar mistake? And for your note, you're not perfect either. "write of Ezreal" 10/11. Given how I was "rambling" by responding to YOUR points, what does that make what you said? Complete gibberish?

:^) [slayer-jinx-unamused]

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