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Supports vs "Supports"

Braums Biceps··6 votes·1,491 views

Why are things like Brand and Lux support allowed to be as powerful as they are? More importantly, why are champions who are made to be supports historically reworked after they go to other lanes (see Alistar Soraka ), but when other "Supports" dominate bot lane they go without so much as a nerf to their cc/burst/ability to abuse support items. Let's not even talk about Frost Queen right now. Those "Supports" are called "a nice mix up for bot lane." Whereas when supports go to other lanes it's "Abusive and not balanced and needs a rework." ... I don't really want to gripe too much on this because as a support main, I'd be speaking incredibly bias. I could go on and on for ages about why I think it's unfair for actual supports to get reworked but other "Supports" are totally fine. Don't get me wrong, I know that there are counters. I totally understand that. I also don't want things to be some solid rock meta. Heck man.. Just heck.

26 Comments

TehNACHO9 votes

In the case of Alistar and Soraka specifically, it was because of their completely uncounterable harass. Alistar can chunk you with a W+Sheen AA and if you're melee you just ate a chunk of damage, and if you stood literally anywhere close to old Soraka, Starcall for days. Along with a targeted Silence to disengage and built in Sustain to ward off the damage you do manage to land on her.

I believe these were Phreak's words: "Most of the time, players don't take these picks for fun or personal preference, they take these picks because they're bullshit". I paraphrased that badly, but the message should be there. Alistar and Soraka solo laners were bitches to deal with.

And the reverse is as true. Annie dominates bot lane and once Riot formed an opinion on what she as a support should do, they reworked Annie's numbers accordingly since she was bullshit in bot lane. Brand on the other hand is allowed to run around as his kit's power, especially as a support, relies on slow and predictable skill shots.

Dyonas1 votes

{quoted}

Brand on the other hand is allowed to run around as his kit's power, especially as a support, relies on slow and predictable skill shots.

Except when you have only one path to take and that slow, predictable skill shot isn't so easy to avoid. Even if you ignore that issue which really depends on your bot lane (short range adc and support will suffer most) you still only have to get hit by 1 of his abilities and that passive does the rest. What counter-play is there to losing so much health from one ability at early levels? It just gets worse as the game progresses and not everyone wants to play ranked or draft mode so you end up with these dumb lanes.

Braums Biceps1 votes

Oh believe me, I totally wanted those Soraka changes. I love where she's at right now even if she goes oom a lot faster now with Q mana cost changes. I thought her point-and-click silence with Q spam was silly and didn't make much sense when she could also heal and give herself and other like 90 armor and 500 hp.

Ali got his combo altered and that's fine too, but I kind of thought Ali jungle was pretty nice and reasonable. Granted those dives were kind of stupid, but in general, I think he was alright. Wish they'd give him some more damage on his passive back or revert it so it does increased damage to monsters again.

Nekusen2 votes

"Brand" and "balanced" can only be in the same sentence with a "isn't" in the middle

shyv1 votes

I mean, it's not just brand / lux support that does a ton of damage and steals kills all the time. I do it with sona. karma. lulu. take thunderlords on every champ and fuck up bot lane. that's pretty much how u survive preseason.

Eternal 7 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=trying too hard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIFcXUrA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-30T07:52:35.456+0000)

I mean, it's not just brand / lux support that does a ton of damage and steals kills all the time. I do it with sona. karma. lulu. take thunderlords on every champ and fuck up bot lane. that's pretty much how u survive preseason.

<_< sonas Q damage , and range is ... kind of dumb ... on top of that its point and click , idk out of all the "pure , non mage sups " i feel sonas damage and point click range is a bit much

Maximum Morde1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kid Kanji,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIFcXUrA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-30T11:54:19.133+0000)

<_< sonas Q damage , and range is ... kind of dumb ... on top of that its point and click , idk out of all the "pure , non mage sups " i feel sonas damage and point click range is a bit much

Sure till you run into a point and click CC champ and instantly get fragged because Sona is a wet tissue paper.

Eternal 7 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIFcXUrA,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T13:15:57.315+0000)

Sure till you run into a point and click CC champ and instantly get fragged because Sona is a wet tissue paper.

I mean , like .... alot of squishy sups , and adc's who get hit with a sona ult , and a Q + sheen damage , thats like half the hp XD , yeah shes squishy , but with range on a point and click skill like that , thats some major damage

Maximum Morde1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kid Kanji,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIFcXUrA,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T13:38:20.309+0000)

I mean , like .... alot of squishy sups , and adc's who get hit with a sona ult , and a Q + sheen damage , thats like half the hp XD , yeah shes squishy , but with range on a point and click skill like that , thats some major damage

Yes but when you run into a good player, they don't panic. They hit you back with cc and outright kill you because Sona is squishy as hell and has no way to fight back once her ult is down.

Eternal 7 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIFcXUrA,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T14:04:44.683+0000)

Yes but when you run into a good player, they don't panic. They hit you back with cc and outright kill you because Sona is squishy as hell and has no way to fight back once her ult is down.

youre missing the point of what im saying , anyone can die when cc'd , squishy or not .... XD im saying towards squishy targets , for a point and click skill , thats like caits auto range , she does alot of damage

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kid Kanji,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIFcXUrA,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T14:10:55.752+0000)

youre missing the point of what im saying , anyone can die when cc'd , squishy or not .... XD im saying towards squishy targets , for a point and click skill , thats like caits auto range , she does alot of damage

Sonas Q isnt point and click....

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Right, it's be-in-range and click.

mike in the box1 votes

A huge time saver if you ask me. All skills should be like this. :P

Eternal 7 1 votes

{quoted}

Sonas Q isnt point and click....

Uhmm... yeah , it , pretty much is :|

Leadpaintchips1 votes

She also dies if you look at her funny. I'm not a huge fan of all of her power going onto the Q empowered aa, but if she didn't have that, she would not be even worth considering. Honestly, she loses more in a trade if you just stand there and wail on her instead of running. SHe hopes everyone runs like she does, because if not, she's screwed.

BluePolarizer1 votes

What do you think of top laners going bot?

Lord Boltrix3 votes

Mordekaiser Hue?

Braums Biceps1 votes

Same thing. I just mentioned stuff people can related to as of right now. ie what's popular in the botlane. Don't see too many top laners, in general.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Their CC and high damage and poke makes them perfect candidates for Supports, they also do well with little AP. I know they nerfed nearly everyone who tried to step out of bot lane and go for mid lane. With that being said, I hate Vel koz support, and I often deem him broken even though hes every1s posterchild for balance.

Xenomancers1 votes

control mages are basically supports anyways - they are just damage oriented. Dedicated supports tend to have more midgame tricks to make plays - that's what you give up. In solo Q though - damage is king.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

control mages are basically supports anyways - they are just damage oriented. Dedicated supports tend to have more midgame tricks to make plays - that's what you give up. In solo Q though - damage is king.

But support primaries are balanced different than support secondaries. Heres some examples: MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+ 90% AP) MINIMUM TOTAL DAMAGE: 80 / 160 / 240 / 320 / 400 (+ 110% AP) SHIELD STRENGTH: 70 / 140 / 210 / 280 / 350 (+ 70% AP) +CC immunity TOTAL MAGIC DAMAGE: 300 / 450 / 600 (+ 140% AP) on a SUPPORT.

Meanwhile, the closest analogue ; MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 60% AP) MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+ 90% AP) SHIELD: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 50% AP) +movement speed

Do you see the disparity there? theres a MASSIVE difference in base damages AND scaling.

Xenomancers1 votes

{quoted}

But support primaries are balanced different than support secondaries. Heres some examples: MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+ 90% AP) MINIMUM TOTAL DAMAGE: 80 / 160 / 240 / 320 / 400 (+ 110% AP) SHIELD STRENGTH: 70 / 140 / 210 / 280 / 350 (+ 70% AP) +CC immunity TOTAL MAGIC DAMAGE: 300 / 450 / 600 (+ 140% AP) on a SUPPORT.

Meanwhile, the closest analogue ; MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 60% AP) MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+ 90% AP) SHIELD: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 50% AP) +movement speed

Do you see the disparity there? theres a MASSIVE difference in base damages AND scaling.

I don't disagree with you there. I think the base damages in the least should be put on par with other champions. Id even go as far as to say their base damage should be a little higher BUT then you get people taking thresh top and just murdering people. I mean look at tham khench - he is a great example of why supports should not have amazing scaling.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

I don't disagree with you there. I think the base damages in the least should be put on par with other champions. Id even go as far as to say their base damage should be a little higher BUT then you get people taking thresh top and just murdering people. I mean look at tham khench - he is a great example of why supports should not have amazing scaling.

Tom had all his damage loaded into one ability though, and it didnt have amazing scaling either. a full AP tom had.. maybe 60%? at 800AP?

Buffing other supports to match their midlaner counterparts is a bad idea though. riots balance philosophy is "nerf all the things"; youre better off nerfing morgana (who is, honestly, the sole problem with support secondaries....) so that shes in line with other supports. And get rid of that bloody CC immunity on her shield.

EndlessSorcerer3 votes

Tom had all his damage loaded into one ability though, and it didnt have amazing scaling either. a full AP tom had.. maybe 60%? at 800AP?

Tahm Kench's scaling is primarily loaded into his ultimate's passive, not his W. It's quite common to have +120 damage per autoattack or damaging ability mid-game (since that's only about 1500 Bonus Health) and it only increases from there.

Woodsy25751 votes

You have to admit, having a Lulu or a Soroka mid was the most obnoxious experience ever

mike in the box1 votes

Lulu can still go mid.

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